me to help me get through some of the are see process where i got my prima facia recognition as a whistleblower. and then on this individual right to appeal letter to take my case to the m s p b. so this, there's nothing simple about any of this, and it's definitely you learn lessons along the way. and it was one of the reasons that i set up with the lawyers of america because it made me realize no, it should be alone. in the sense, i was starting to a more public about looking for wisdom lower information. and i went online, i was on social media, connected with somebody else who was at another federal agency. and she told me that she was in law enforcement, had a gun and was comfortable putting suicide. and for me, investors triggered everything i knew about combat trauma about suicide prevention

that we needed to do more and be more for each other because no one is, is looking out for the whistleblower in any of these kinds of cases. we are speaking with us defense department was the blower, jackie garrick, about her experience at dependent gone during the obama administration. we're going to ask her and you to stay with us as we take a short commercial break. we'll be right back. 2 2 2 2 2 the the,

the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with pentagon, with the blower, jackie garrick, about her experiences in the department of defense. jackie, thanks again for being with us. you for having me here, jackie, i would love to know the results of your whistle blowing. it's easy to get lost and the bureaucracy of whistle blowing and the obstacles that we face when making our revelations. the important thing is that you made a complaint about waste fraud abuse or illegality. what ended up happening with it were changes made. was it finally corrected? um the so it took 5 years um for my case to run the wickets. and

um, in 2020, after getting the foyer, not what we got on discovery, but what i got on for you, i'm by then i was pro say i was representing myself. and i was able to read to the judge these emails and things that i had gotten on for you that i hadn't gotten on discovery. and that from me was cathartic. just in of itself was to read those things to him and, and then to when my case in 2020 was probably the most surprised person in all of this with me because it was that, that feeling that he truly believed to me that in his decision he saw that the and the most on the retaliation were really there. and um, he avoided me my retirement benefits that i had applied for so that

that was great. you owed me 3 years or the government of the 3 years of back pay. and so i took that money and i re invested it into building whistle blowers of america. so on that part it has been great. but after i was removed from the defense suicide prevention office, i, i went back and i said, well, where's the accountability for what happened to the program? and if you go on the website, i don't know if it's still up there. i've been checked in a while. but the d h r a, the defense human resource activity overseas, the budget for the suicide prevention office. and somewhere between 20162017, that office is reduced by $20000000.00. so it goes from having a rough estimate in here, a budget of about 25000000 that i was executing on to now about 5000000. and then in subsequent years, the defense department says, oh,

we have increase the budget because it went from like 5000000 to 8000000 to 9000000 to 8000000. and the budget has sort of flux around there. but since i was removed, it's also gone through a series of directors. the one that was there after me was re, was moved over to the b a and then resign from government. the um, the following, there was a couple of in interim directors, the last director that was there left and i don't know if there's now another permanent so there's been at least 4 or 5 directors over that office with a budget that has gone down and you know the suicide numbers among the active duty guard and reserve, i think speak for themselves. the only time we ever saw a reduction in suicide was when we were looking at the 2014 and we were specifically targeting programs towards the guard and reserves. we saw decrease

a little a little eating downward trends that we were hopeful that we would see again in 2015. but of course it was in february of 2015 that i was removed and from what you could from what is available public documents. it looks like the programs and the contracts were then canceled in 2015 by that. by that summer, by august, most of my work that i had in south did was, was canceled. and the programs and the things were going into a new direction. there was another contract after that called be there and i've had several whistle blowers call me about that program. basically being a sam that it didn't take the numbers. it's, it was i supposed to take the calls, the, the people who i've talked to said, you know, they were given embroidered,

starts with their names on it. but then they weren't allowed to go out into the public and do any outreach or spread awareness about the program. so i think there's been other concerns. i know that the last time i saw a hearing and there was testimony about the d. o. d sort of shrugging his shoulders and not seeming to know why the numbers were going up and um, and that was the last permanent director. of course, that has since gone, but it's been, it's been those frustrating moments for me to see the d. o. d, call suicide, the new norm o. so there are ways and trends and in the initiatives that you can take that could reduce suicide that are evidence based. some of the peer support stuff we were doing. there are ways to make suicide prevention more effective than i feel like the d o. d has done

in recent years and you know, that makes me personally sad because it adds to what i feel like is, is been my frustration overall. this cause i feel like we were in a good place and, and i hate to see where we are now, with the suicide numbers at the, at the d o d and at the v. a. neither of them have been outstanding in terms of what they've been able to prevent and you're under real time constraints when you blew the whistle because you were a political appointee. that meant that your job literally ended at the moment that the obama administration left office, even if you had to keep up the fight for your retirement benefits into the trump administration. did that time constraint help or hurt your ability to blow the whistle? and so i had really hope that the office of special counsel would have

been more helpful in allowing me to stay on in a, in a like a career or non career position with, uh, the, and there are different authorities. they could have used to do that. well, my case continued, i honestly got it from 2015 to 2017 that we wouldn't, we wouldn't be dragging this on. and the, the one issue that gave me a start a to continue my case was because what the d o d had done was they converted the position from a political to a career position, which then gave me with the lower rice because i had applied and was trying to remain in the position as a career position. so my political appointee status really didn't matter for the case. but my employment ended when the obama administration ended and nobody after that was willing, of course,

to be helpful to help me move this case or continue this case as a federal employee. me, you went on to found the organization whistle blowers of america, as you've said, to provide peer support to whistle blowers in need of it. honestly, as i said a moment ago, i can't think of anything that whistle blowers need more except maybe legal representation. tell us about the founding, the group pulling together the resources and the work that you've done, what, what kinds of whistle blowers have reached out for help. i. and so every kind of what's the bar has reached out for help. um, you know, when i started this, i really, honestly didn't know what i was getting myself into. i thought we needed to have these kinds of conversations amongst ourselves so we can help each other, solve problems, make decisions, and be resilient. i quickly learned that it's, it's a surprise that you need an attorney for federal employees that you need to know

how to hire an attorney, that you wouldn't need to know how to work with the media. i mean, thank goodness i had had some media training while i was asked kind of gone. so it's explaining simple things like what, what does it mean to be on background? what is off the record? how do you know what kind of an attorney, i mean i have people say yeah, i talk to an attorney, i'm like okay, how versed is your attorney? and what's the blower laws and the like. i don't know, he's the guy who handled my divorce and then it just makes me wonder cringe and 6 my have. so the idea that we need each other, we need to help each other understand these things. i think it's important and then to be able to talk about, you know, how is your family handling this? how are you? how are you managing this? who's helping you, how? who's supporting you? how are you developing your evidence? do you know what a level of evidence means? um, you know, i get people who will tell me what have evidence and then they'll send me emails

that they wrote. i'm like, no, that's not really evidence. that's your opinion. and it could be good to help build your case, but that's not what this means. and so i'm constantly trying to help people understand the nature of their case. how to work with the media if need be, how to work with congress if need be out of work with investigators, the i j the g a o. like who can you go to for how and who else can we build a team to help you care about this? and what's the following is a tough subject. um, you know, we're not, we don't have sick children and keep puppies that are part of our what we do when, when we have people who are blowing, what's the cause? i've worked with all kinds of whistle blowers. but when we talk about the with the blower, not necessarily the case. it's very hard to get the right resources to support this mission. like i said, i invested a lot of my own money. right?

um, we definitely you can use more support w w w whistleblowers of america dot org has a donate button on it. so anybody who wants to help this causes invited to join us . but otherwise, i, you know, this is, this is a complex set of issues and very, very difficult to get people to understand the true nature of these cases. it is indeed, well, i would like to thank our guest, jackie garrick for joining us today. and for sharing her experience, and i'd like to thank our viewers for being with us. martin luther king once said that life's most persistent question was, what are you doing for others? the big galli poet robin from us have already answered when he said i slept and dreamt that life was joy i awoke and saw that life was service. i acted and behold, service was joy! thanks again for joining us. you've been watching the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry echo until next time. 2 2 2 2

2 2 of the russian states never see as tight as on one of the most on scheme and the best most i'll send send up the in the 6595 and speed. what else? suppose question about this? even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin, the machine for states on the rush to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube. the question, did you say even closer to the

willing of the soul pertaining to the local union doria so name yeah i did she ship a doctor. i mean i report the control room for 2 of us. so we shift, you get the system really being you have enough, lots of websites that's in pennsylvania where we did the boom cloud shows, actually it's strange uh, fox news, but i'll let you as well. but the crazy if that's what they're used to motivate myself way, but just to do, you still know? sadly, if she ever we skipped a split the a lift or flip that came over to them. i need deals says that you train school. so that's good news. i used to move on

when they finished, of course, we're not somebody's full skirts rescue stuff, but i'm saying yes, i shoot the trump these gears nestle. you create your staple feature that would dump it. hopefully you have great day so that i'm not the.