bolen and the bolt, they say it's and whoever wants to join this coalition of winning and russia will say, hey, we don't want to hit boland because it will go on. bowling is going to scream all the go. 5, then more and more with nato, and we are afraid of nato, because nato is much bigger, much stronger than we are. and, you know, we're not ready to go. nuclear and nato, however is ready to go in euclid. so that in the last, the argument isn't where we can essentially bring in additional uh, manpower and rusher, was simply not there to hit this ramp and would just simply slink away in defeat. that's the argument. but of course, you know, why should russia except this, i mean, and, you know, once, once you're in an, you'll fighting a deal crazy hot in ukraine, russia will hit you and will extend the war. i mean, you is, it was a fed target. well, publish and basis, bullish, logistics, the supply lines. everything will be affect game. and, you know,

when it will be up to later, what is the volume for the badge to escalate? been using their argument is that, you know, no, this is a bi lateral, this is a by law. so, but you can say, well, we're going to buy laterally bombs. you get the argument tables in um it's a part of the jump it because they're making a huge assumption which is the booty went through that. and the reason why is because the track record on page and side has been very much about the escalation. you've never arisen to the bank is always back down because he knows what implications of the terrific to even discuss. i mean, we possibly, i mean is it, i can hardly believe what i'm saying. oh, we actually possibly looking at the early stages of a new cable. i mean, this is where this whole heading, you know, we, when you start talking about, can, we've even imagined the 3 of us a few months ago, talking about troops on the ground in ukraine. you know, when i was talking about british and american soldiers and it had been inevitably arriving there, was recently about low numbers and probably cover. so this is,

this being said, i think this makes a lot of sense. and if we did have totally false is what is the waning and forces in the you can bet your bottom dollar the british us. so yes, numbers would, would rock it would go. right. so because a british of probably being the most gun hope of old western nations, even more than america in terms of what we're actually doing on the ground and lead to so, so you know, we, we are getting into a very, very dangerous situation of escalation where we assume the person will not escalates if we escalate, but i don't think we can we, can, we can bank on that. i think now the knowledge of is turning now to, you know, there are many american mainstream journalists now who are actually being of submit that the russia is stuck now to is no longer relevant if ever was, you know, on the plan is taking huge losses on the battlefield and if we all gonna make any difference in ukraine, you know, we, we need to do something much, much, much bigger on a much bigger scale. and i think that's really what nato is, is, is negotiating and working out now with it's with it some hooks on the eastern side

of europe and his dogs in terms of, from some german you don't want escalation. they didn't wanna. ready ready war with nature to, you know, the language just turn into tactical strikes. that's what i'm hearing. a lot tactical strike was very, very dangerous. you know, i mean, and what is, uh, what does that take binding leading out to, to the elections. you know, that was you going to explain this to, to folks is when the that they, the economy in america is going to stop tunnel. the explosive pointing this out. the you know binds. got quite good dates as to the 6 of them. i'm only flesh when inflation is just one aspect of an economy. there are many, many other factors where, you know, it's looking as though the americans cloud, financially around the world, is slowly and in a demise. you know, and i'm going to, the election is bite and then i have to stand by these both bellicose groundwater statements that is people made at the beginning, you know, we need to teach the rest of the lessons. we need to get them so hard, but they'll never do this again in ukraine or other countries. you know how you get out the how you unpack that, how you bug pebble out. it's a very,

very difficult. so the rush that we always talk about on the show is turning in one direction only. i'm, you know, as crazy as much as it sounds. you know, we are looking now attached to strikes. we are looking now. yeah, definitely. it's a choice of nato's to make judge about 45 seconds before we go to the right spot from the russian perspective. they are at war with nato. so, i mean, i don't know what nature, what kind of game they're playing in their head. they're not making, i mean, leopard tags. ok, i mean, you know, they're, they're not, you claim in tags. ok. i mean, again, this is kind of a discursive playground that the nato is playing 30 seconds is probably going to the body. exactly. i mean, if the terrance has failed to deter the need, so from essentially getting involved in the war against russia using ukraine is a proxy defy brush up then by the same token, degeren's will fail to, to russia in striking nature. i mean, a basic or washington is like, what do we have to lose? nato is already waging a war against us that, you know,

basically all bets are off. yeah, this is a, we should never actually, we should, we should never get to the point. what do we have to lose? that is the place we cannot go. okay, gentlemen, going to just been here when you go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato savings. r t the a. hi, i'm executive and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he

won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the wayne say the local mess across software, all things are considered non funeral. now this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the okay, let's go back to martin america's one of the interesting things. the dilemma is one of the dilemma is the nato, as it is always very stubbornly and probably in eric and believes that you know, we're going to go wherever we want to go. and you know,

they help with the russians. okay. well we have had a brick wall. okay. of course you know, sweden and finland that is on the agenda. of course they want to get him to pores country in europe, moldova, god knows why whatever. okay. but they've hit a brick wall with, with ukraine, and anyone has been paying attention. this is a critical, pivotal point for russia, but no under no circumstances. whatever form ukraine is. they will not be a member of nato. and the nato is kind of dug itself into a trap right here because someone is saying no to nature and they're not used to it more. yeah. and um, yeah, i think it's why right? that. so the knowledge of is tons to, to, to the, to this level. and that we're, we're actually discussing the possibility of any of these countries from eastern europe coming in. i'm, you know, let's, let's look at it from a different perspective. i see i'm in a quite negative way, i think to 1st of all, you know, we're looking at a new data now which is divided. yes. it's like

a can speak nature, you know, and we never done that before. like everything that night just um and you kind before, you know, you've often said, you know, this is not libya, this is not syria, this is the russian simply a 5. so you, there is a huge experiment. let's think what's happening now with these meetings, you know, with nights or leaders. i'm was so lensky becoming more and more aggressive. you know, i think we're reaching a point of admission that the approach as it was and it's been muscle, be underfunded, probably. and when we talk about $12030000000000.00 of us money going into the. ready ukraine machine probably though there's nowhere near enough. probably you have to look at 34, or 5 times that to have the kind of impact of ukrainians and the ones because i told me about penetrating that line and you know, no one has the secret. no one has the surplus spring offensive has become a summer offensive. you know, a, i don't, i don't know how you, you find 2 or 340-0000 soldiers with house. the only

one that's just the point, georgia, me, you're in hungry. i mean, i how many, you know, 100 and you're not a government official. so i'm just gonna ask your opinion, but how many 100 it's going to join up for that project going into a good. i mean, i kind of remember history that, you know, last time you home, gary and troops were in the part of the world that didn't work out too well for them. george. oh sorry, go fine. and i, so that's like a book the point that uh, you know, victor or bon emphasizes only go sucked into world war 2 hungry, took part in the invasion of the soviet union as an ally of hip list and got the club the off the world war 2, and i threw in your, you know, the you, you 40 is the comment is i'm the, that's what you do. you know, if you start the war and you lose the war, you get club. and i mean that's an inevitability and it is, it's something that's out the it before. but. 3 makes clip be the it is an interesting issue though that was what made it was now done is gone oil and was the

last they are going to make some kind of a commitment. those are landscape. i mean, i don't think the villain is just going to the george or your keys in us. ok. i'm going to buy. what do you think it is going to be? well, i think that there's probably going to be something along the lines of the nuisance bloodline for coalition of the willing. i mean, if you know people want to help your brain go, go right ahead and try and help doing the problem is that now the major has made an existing shall map for it. so it comp just back away because if it backs away it's essentially mentioning we lost. yeah, we didn't just lose. i mean we, we can lose that. i've got is non okay. we learn, you know, bunch of go to those. you know, that's fine. okay. we love this on the if the end of nato. what state exactly. when last, the russia, this is a bit know why, you know, this is the people that we've been hating for years and years. it really no decade . we lost democracies, have lost. i mean, you know,

the great divide do with democracies and we'll talk this is, that's gone. we'll talk, this is a one major kind of full to do that then that when they don't just have to escalate, i mean, there's just, there's no way to back away because there isn't anyone in nato with it, with his actual vicar or about who suggests things like this is, this is not major, just have to sit down, you know, forget all this, all the and just work something, something pragmatic out with russia just as we used to work something pragmatic out for the soviet union. but there's no one of the major prepared to do it. so they all in and i don't see any uh, you know, willingness on how nato is bought. do a back down. well, we back to the more the roses. i mean for democracy. i mean, i thought this was awful about security, okay. that is the discursive mistake. martin, the west is made, is to try to equate the to they have nothing to do with one another. and if you look at the rushes past year, it is all about it. security,

it is never about politics in that sense or. yeah, i think it's just about the last couple of weeks of it's been a very top here is of the media and coming these events, you know, and i wonder how much media is played. i look kind of ro is played in contributing to this, this capital moment, the way with this, you know, you know, this night. so some it is that's going to produce some sort of in my view. it will, it will offers and let's get some sort of deal which was involved more match a hardware, but a lot, lot more unintelligent, sharing the parts. and then i understand, i mean, again, this is called the fog of war, media and propaganda. but i mean this, the, the, the warehouses are empty. okay. they're, they're ordering things to be the corporate, not just yet to the main issue is a big problem. yeah, i mean, it may well be that there might be collective cool around the world for the americans friends to look at the 2nd rates on 3rd, 2nd, or 3rd generation equipment. and, you know, russian times were like an eighties in morocco for example. um that that may will

be part of it. but i think, you know, what's learning is, is it, although i am seeing very, very slight shift from the narrative in america. you know, american gentleman is starting to pointing the finger on us, you know, slightly a so big questions. you know, we still have very, very, very unusual. and we'd like to put you on the ground, which is really not helping. i mean, it's absolutely incredible the protocol since 1st video on switzer. let's take slew actually study why is exploding. i'm not a fan of 10000. so why does exploited because yeah, unless i'm not asking those really, really basic questions or this guy is asking you, we talked about the coup with them. you know, i mean, well, i would rather just himself, you know, is there something else that did the trans actually take pot shots of the time a couple of months earlier? yes. what's your 1st reported on this? why is that being adver us as a narrative? now where, you know, every media of in britain america is especially when the thing that it rushes up to

don't do. we're not going to look at anything else. the russians did it, you know, but what i think is happening is that with the nice of summit with the time attack, i think, and james cleverly statement a couple weeks ago that the cranes have every right to hit russia within russia. i think what's happening is we are being something dog well being prepared for a new way of a new policy to allow us to. ready or in ukraine, and i think, and of course, of course, people are going to vote on this gorge, right. this is, this is a popular war in, in the past, or is it a leak driven? explain what's going well as a very good web. it goes because any time when the war implicitly is an issue of the voters vote against that, there is no popular mandate anywhere full of as well. and there is a reason why the alternative to deutschland potty is doing well. and jeremy, i have, you know, the germans of very, very, very wary of voting for any ranking. bought me this probably is obviously nothing

to do with knots isn't more any relevant at the moment. is that, oh, this is a file, right? but it is the nationalized body. german is a very wary of this. nonetheless, essentially, this is an interesting georgia that it takes russia, it was before the soviet union, you know, to make people, you know, that they would, that they would, um, would it be the injected into german politics? and now we, you know, it's fighting russia and now the right is be, you know, they're sending, you know, these people going to be, are, say, it's interesting how it's kind of ships around it. but it's always, it's the point. russia, yes that's, i've tried so many, the ones who was the most bell, it goes about russia in germany is elaina bad luck. i mean it's, it's, it's the last, i mean it's that the, the greens are absolutely insane. as all greens generally throughout europe, i mean it's all very much of, you know, the and a project, all the left. i mean, the ones who somehow, i've identified russia as the enemy and that,

that can be no backing now is the just not forbid, just like a rush as the enemy, but you know, we don't want to destroy the world. i because if you're already, yeah, russia is the enemy and we're ready to go all the way we would, you know, it's like um, police trust. yes, i'm ready to press the button. how do you want to do? you know, it was specify what are the conditions under which you are the press the button, and you have an lena bed, a box, a pass that changes position 360 bucks the people were dealing with. you're smart and be honest with more seriously, very interesting use. you said, you know, there might be a call for american allies with this. what, $800.00 base is around the world, you know, maybe only, uh, some uh, additional equipment besides a very interesting message to the global south, particularly china is that, oh, you know, they, you know, it's a country like ukraine, but can stop the west, you know, and it's keels, i mean, that's a very interesting message if we could have this, like scrounging around. so the, the, that with the nato is it is not what we were told. okay. and it's, 1st of all,

it's divided and it's pretty short on supplies because i've always said, if russia was such a danger to nature countries, why didn't they spend more money on defense? they didn't learn because they never had much of spinning in a conflict like that. which was, which was true. well, the result is over such a long period. you know, the miscalculation at the beginning of this conflict was absolutely breathtaking. i think we're seeing that again now. i think this idea that now we think about troops into the country is, is, uh, these west, some of these have got together and the kids themselves are, if we do this next i'm, if she goes out for could that be them? the, the capitalist switch jump starts, a new series of diplomacy from russell from china. that could well possibly be part of it. the other thing about backing out which george mentioned is that there is a timeline to this, and the timeline is 2020 full us selections. so that can be a point where the west can back out, because if america says,

if it is bite and says 2 months before ols that some, okay, we're going to pull out of your brain, and i'm going to spend a $120000000000.00. now i'm paula to which i think is what trump or something like couch it will probably do that would be the stump of the pool. you know, at some point, you know, everything is off, all bets are off. so i think they, these are certain factors that we have to look at, but, you know, there's so much risk, there's so much experimentation, you know, don't bring less trust. and so if it got say, please, you know, i think there's enough markets already sitting around the peak table of trying to work out the future careers and the next moves you know, um, times the sped isn't all martin, this is all about careers, you know, i mean i was going to be the next head of natal. i may be from the u. k. no, and we need a woman from scandinavia. so what does this have to do with security? i keep asking that unfortunately, gentleman, this is not a pod gas, this is a program and we run out of time on a thing, my guess. in budapest and america,

she always think of us. we're watching us here at ortiz see next time, remember across up games, the garage of business services boss can do either speak with key at the washington state, the girls for the us as the phone of send the video, people to the list of all but huge but they used to do this for the

breaking news here on our t former. it's holly and prime minister silvio berlusconi guys at the age of $86.00 and milan. the giant of battalion politics passed away after being hospitalized last friday. i'm here in belgrade, one of the assistants, points for the displaced people who have come from the surrounding villages that were recently attacked by ukrainian artillery. as over 16000 people are evacuated from western russian territories, under rom, loveless, ukrainian, or to the re fire our seat. is a refugee camp in the ball garage regions. the china slams us media allegations that beijing has struck a deal with cuba to setup spice station on the island. when i left that

as well, it was ready to collapse. we would have to take it over. we would have got doing that away or would have been right dicks or donald trump openly claims. thank you. i should have it akin then as we have an oil by force back in 2019 as the u. s. claim that stood for venice freeland freedom and democracy at the time, the coming to live in the russian capital. this is our t international. i'm rachel evans, with the top stories of the our welcome to the program. us. and we did was breaking news as our here on our t, former italian prime minister silvio berlusconi has died at the age of 86 and milan . he passed away in a hospital after being admitted last week with serious health issues. bro, this county served as a tale in prime minister 3 times. let's take

a look back at his legacy. born and fascist. it's lee in 1936. sylvia versus connie said that he remembered the horrors of war from a young age. perhaps that is what serve this is drive to become not only immediate ty coon, one of the richest men in italy, but also the longest serving its highland prime minister after world war 2. italy is the country i love. here i have my roots, my hopes, my horizons here, i learned my job as a mentor for premier or from my father and from life here i learned the passion for freedom. i tell you that we can i tell you that we must build together for us and for our children, a new italian miracle, a multi billionaire, a heading, a european government. suppose also a 1st, but that's not all. he also owns one of the most famous football clubs in the world ac milan for 30 years. his other passion was singing,

and not many people know that he actually co roads the teams and some. oddly enough, he named his conservative party for say, talia, which means go actually after trans used by ac, milan funds, a man of many talents who always left a lasting impression rights. charming, controversial, humorous, and never afraid to speak his mind. as he said, lucy, don't c or a k c cam, i guess he can like, is he gonna? that's paid, said one of the rooms out to back obama. movie supposed to be mean it. and so it gives me the name on, on the says his level of women was perhaps, as the tories as his law for vladimir putin much was written about their so called pro, met and silver, the decades in western mainstream media. and he always hoped that he could bring washington into the mix when i was in government in 2001 i said publicly that i

wanted to end the cold war, which had been going on for 50 years and was a terrible anguish. i was successful because here in rome, in 2002, i convinced george bush and vladimir putin using all my talents of friendly relations. 2 ends of the cold war that didn't last long as we know. but the friendship between puts in a better school need one from strength to strength. some said it was due to mutual business interests, but it seemed to go far beyond that. here there were and saw dania when the it's highly liter hosted boots in the, at his villa in 2008. and this system in crimea in 2015, a controversial trip for western politician. as it came after. local residents voted overwhelmingly to reunify with russia. 87 percent of crime in citizens voted 93 percent devoted to seed from ukraine, voted to be an a ton. them is republic voted to become parts of the russian

federation. you should see the love, the gratitude and the friendliness that will come to pretend that didn't go down well with western politicians, of course, but silvio berlusconi was not a man who cared about what other thoughts. and he never shied away from telling it like it is. he understood russia's points of view and slammed the wes for prolonging the conflict in ukraine. justice february, he was birch and washington to come to the senses and start watson and keith to cut off the weapon supplies in order to achieve an immediate cease fire. i would never have gone talking to the landscape because we're witnessing the devastation of his country and the slaughter of its soldiers and civilians. so i judge very, very negatively the behavior of this gentleman. berlusconi is ridiculous accusations against the ukrainian president are an attempt to kiss pollutants hands which are covered in blood, up to the elbows a coach and was pushed by the russian population by his party,

by his ministers to an event. this special operation. the plan was for russian troops to enter in a week to replace the landscape of government with a government of decent people. this is a man who entered politics in the early ninety's and managed to serve 3 terms, despite being constantly charged with something that seems mainly tax evasion of fraud. most charges were dismissed, but he was eventually convicted of the tax fraud in 2014 and was even banned from running for office. as soon as the band was lifted in 2018, however, he went to seats in the european parliament the following year, and he returned to the country senate. but it was gone. he was never wants to give up or stay away. i am the jesus christ of politics. i am a patient, the victim. i put up with everyone. i sacrifice myself for everyone. i have very good personal relations with mister, but

a skate. i think that he's one of the great is your a pain. politicians have today, despite his stablished amount of with women as a politician, he is of course, one of the last mohicans of europe in politics. the passing of silvio berlusconi is a great loss not only for its sleep and european politics, but also for russia, as he was one of very few people in europe, who not only respected russia's points of view, but was also trying to get others to understand. it truly is the end of any era. earlier my colleague peter scott discussed the legacy of silvio berlusconi with his former assistant and author of true berlusconi, a man businessman, politician dario volta as the one that has been in the shop the here giving people the buyer gets a beep. one of the houses i think that they really bought you realize it's a heavy bought do realize that the he was a and a he is being

a great body to all the details you and you will be on the piece. stood as a man, he was a bit a pleasant person to to remain which it was like you can get to be maurice because he was a very sympathetic to every body and the ones that are expecting every body. i have been working with the met for many years, even before for the success and the i do not remember any moments in which it the aggression to some quarter of one of those. uh that uh was not doing well his job. he was always trying to understand a, to correct the he was very kind as it for the dish and i criticize the many times a month for some respect. so all the in chatham, the 40 dixon. i think that the in the what the extent of the international, what do you think is closer and he has been a really perfect anytime he has been a bride. mean is that will be to was no secrets. obviously that's uh,

silvio. berlusconi was, was good friends with the russian president vladimir putin. they had a great personal friendship. why do you think that's so close? was it purely political or business? oh, is that something deeper between them as well? i think that the most lead was really a human relationship, a human human, a friendship between digital. i never had the opportunity of looking at them together. but the anytime aids happened to me to don't with the motor with either. so it both of their relationships and i. ringback was aware that the friendship was a really a human, a csc of friendship. besides that, for sure. also for the party to go resume, they found that many things seemed we should, they were agreeing, it may be something good and we said they were mother on the percent that green by the i think that the, the human aspect. so it was the most important in the other nations, even before the bodies this weekend. so every is

12 artillery shells fired by you print in forces the ball garad region in western russia. that's according to the local. there are residential building was hit and the town of should backing up which sits on the border. the house caught fire with windows being shattered by the strikes. currently over 60000 people are being evacuated to centers all across the balls. were our region are to shay votes, reports from one of the refugee shelters. i'm here in belgrade, one of the assistance points for the displays. people who have come from the surrounding villages that were recently attacked by ukrainian artillery, and incursions by infiltration groups. as you can see, there are literally hundreds of people, thousands of salt refuge here in belgrade. it's a huge humanitarian operation. people are getting psychological health food and the absolutely, and.