the, the 1937 militaristic, japan started a full scale invasion of china. the invading army was rapidly advancing towards the capital of the republic of china. of the dies, the city of nursing, leaving behind the burned down villages and thousands of the dead. on december 13th, the japanese occupied time, z and states the real massacre. for 6 weeks, the invaders exterminated the civilian population. they carried out mass executions, rates, women, and were engaged in merciless robbery. ruthless confrontation of 2 officers of the

imperial army. go see i'd be my guide and to yoshi, no to gain particular notoriety. they competed with each other as though who would be the fastest to kill $100.00 chinese with us or this month. res competition was widely reported in the japanese press to the non being massacre claims the lives of about 300000 people and became one of the largest crimes against humanity in the world history. after world war 2, manufactures advance of the atrocities phase trial. however, the commander of the japanese army in the non seeing operation, freeze yasu e to a socket, was able to escape the responsibility due to the interference of the american administration, the, the,

the, the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter level with much of the world calling for an end to possibilities and ukraine, nato appears to have other ideas. is ukraine turning into washington's next forever war? it certainly appears so, and it has nothing to do with ukraine defeating russia. is the goal, the cross talk in the next forever war. i'm joined by my guess. demetrius las caught us in toronto. he's a lawyer and a freelance journalist in hamilton, and we have kevin mckay. he is a social science professor at mohawk college, as well as the author of radical transformation oligarchy collapse, and the crisis of civilization. and in new york, we have jim cabinet. he is

a political analyst or a gentleman cross cycles, and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciated. dmitri, let me go to you 1st in toronto. well, it's all been but settled that new ukraine is not going to be offered membership, at least at the upcoming summit, and build this. but there's a lot of other ideas going on and it's fits perfectly with it forever. war scenario . i mean, if the, if you grade were to become part of nato, then there would be a global world war. but if not, then the vitamin ministration. is it not achieving much success there can avoid total defeat and of course the ukrainians will pay in blood. and western by tax payers will pay for the rest for the other more effort here. it's a pretty devious plan, but that look, that's what it looks like is in play, dimitri. well, whatever the intentions of the body and administration may be in a couple of the new concepts around him, there's a different reality confronting of the united states government. now then confronted the united states government, let's say any rack or if can to stand the 2 most recent and use of us forever wars

. and that is that the combatants on the american side who are principally ukrainians, are being traded killed at a rate that is far in excess of the rate at which the american forces and other nato forces were sustaining casualties in iraq and afghanistan. and so the reality confronting the by the ministration is that even if it plans for yet another forever war, the ukraine is likely to run out of soldiers a lot faster than the americans would have run other soldiers. not in those other theaters of combat and the same is also true of the militant military material. it is being destroyed at a rate that is far in excess of the rate of which the webinar you need a webinar, us rep and web. and he was being consumed in those conflicts. and so i think that the american public's appetite, or tolerance for the duration of this war is going to be far more limited to that. it was in the case of the, the, the, the iraqi. and if can to stand horse and furthermore you have 2 candidates,

one on the left, or if k junior or the other on the right. trump. we're both talking openly about the insanity of this war and the need to bring it to an end. so the political playing field is also quite different. there wasn't anywhere near this level of opposition from political opponents of, you know, the incoming administration, in the case of us can to send in your rack wars. so again, whatever the intentions of the us government may currently be, they are confronting a very different reality. yeah, but kevin, it doesn't, you know, a common sense and being reasonable they are usually part of a political, calculates out, unfortunately in our day and age here. um, no, i agree with everything with dimitry had to say your but you know, because they don't, they don't have a strategy for victory. they're going to try to stay or boss defeat. okay. and dimitris. absolutely right. the cannon fodder a are. are you quite young ukranian men and russian men as well? um, but they would when they can not accept and that they made a strategic error. and that's why and i get, i think it's very clever,

don't let and you create into nato. and they will have special security arrangements that called the as really option or whatever you'd like that they don't have any answers. that's why they're pursuing this, kevin. yeah, i think said um, you know, to demetrius point that it is a very different scenario today than the previous 4 is that have been mentioned, the sort of forever war is going back to, you know, vietnam afghanistan racks. but i do think that the common problem is that so much of american politics is actually determined by, you know, non elected actors. right? so you do have this massive, you know, it's been called the military industrial complex has been called the deed states by various commentators. you have this machine that basically is based on war. it's driven by the economics of war. and that is something that, um, any of the candidates have to meet your mention are going to have to confront. i'm not so confident that i'm about a trump will actually have the strength to stand up to that machine, you know,

and are as a junior might. but, but that's, so that's a serious challenge. and i think that there's other important players too. when we look at the possibilities for peace or whether this war will extend, i think the international community has a large role to play. trying has been stepping up recently globally in terms of initiating, you know, the conflicting parties that we never thought we'd be sitting down at the table talks with the saudi arabian around you have, uh, you know, african nations getting actively involved in t stock. so you have the brakes playing a larger role. so i think that one of the, the ex, factors in this conflict you know, beyond what's, what's happening on the battlefield, which i agree with. demetrius is horrendous for ukraine is you know, what's the appetite of the international community for a more that's going to go on. you know, i can determine and we, i don't think the outside is an error and i think actually pressure is already mount. i think that, you know, with the african delegation that visited, obviously they're not, they are just, you know, a piece is

a good idea in itself it's, it's so early affecting, develop the developing world, particularly with as a re next board crisis, which russia is going to walk away from cuz the premiums didn't honor it. jim let me go to you in new york part of so you know, um, um you de politicize it, they want to put it like over a 10 year period. that means motors can't get involved in it. and you know, and it's allocation money in advance. it's exactly what kevin was just saying. there it is. good to be non elected actors are going to pursue this here. that it isn't a political question for citizenry. and that is again, a pretty despicable way to approach is conflict because it's in the way that it's being described. there is no end to this complex or looking for ways to keep it going. jim is certainly an oregon in the united states and everywhere else because they cannot, in, not only in the united states as a political support, a very weak at this. we're getting weaker, but in europe,

certainly in germany. i mean, the political support is very weak and, and the economic cost of this is greater than it was in any other work does. the europeans are paying the price for this and they know it. and they said it's very, is not one does not want to go into a forever where they cannot afford it. militarily. they don't have a man or the whole for the material. they've already given that long as you trade ukraine, being treated in terms of material. but that, that's all nato equipment. that's all going gone. and they don't have any more to get been running around the south african israel to get weapons. but i think the preferred strategy is going to be once it's clear that ukrainian army is defeated. what they want is the no, no ongoing war like in afghanistan or, or, or, or rock for 10 years, or one of what they want to do is they're going to go for a ceasefire. all of a sudden blinking or all these as near college or denouncing a few far they're helping themselves now by doing it. because when they turn around there for the russians,

defeat the ukraine armies. and now we want to cease fire. now we're going to, we agree, ok, we're going to see to your demands that you've been making for a ceasefire. but what they're going to want is something on the low level. forever war of a korean arch. this a uh, you know, like a career or is israel post on peace process that goes on forever. that's never resolved. and you just cheap. but they'll try to get a peacekeeping forces in the west and ukraine just to keep, make sure that the peace process goes well, you know, and they'll be giving themselves the, the check the can down the road on all the final issues and chico, a low level conflict going well, they never recognize open gym, hear me. you're absolutely right. i can see all of the scenario is the korean one. no, because the us, north korea south created china agreed to that. okay. the russians are never going to agree with anything that is suggested by at a tony blinking or victoria whooping the never going. they were openly. 8 to,

for 8 years about the men's process, the russians feel burn bite and they're not going to abide by anything. is that that's why, you know, they want to keep this going because they know that they have no unilateral decision making process. go ahead, dimitri, before we go to the break. yeah, i totally agree that i think that the government has made a lot of noises about wanting to freeze the conflict to kicks can down the road and potentially rebuild the ukrainian military. but i totally agree with you peter, that, that, that is not an option. that is not going to happen. what i mean, that, that means that rush, it wouldn't be a party to that it's not going to agree. it's simply not going to good. i don't know these natural people, they're talking inside of a small, i mean, they, maybe we have you thought about what, how the russians might react to this. but don't do that. i'm sorry to interrupt dmitri, go ahead. of what happened. however, it did go back to the point that was just made. what might transpire after it becomes apparent to the button administration, the depressions will have nothing to do with this pros and cons?

which scenario is a low level tell a band style insurgency, which wouldn't cost the us government much, which would be an enormous irritation and distraction for the russian federation for potentially a very long period of time. but even there are uh, you know, as kevin mentioned, you still have to deal with the reality that europe is being significantly damaged by the economic warfare being waged upon russia. even the i am, as you know, has acknowledged that in the 2 years ahead, russia will outgrow the economies of germany and britain. that's how severe the problem has become. and it's only going to get worse as we head into winter with the lack of access to relatively inexpensive russian gas. and so the political appetite within europe, which is a key player, and all of this is going to be very, very limited, even for a low level, long term, tell a band style insurgency. so i think the united states government is running out of options real fast. well, so many things move on. you know, we're going to go to breaking a 2nd here. but i mean, logically i have to agree with you. but then again,

look at the behavior of the europeans for the last 15 months, which, you know, defies logic and common sense to me. what would make that change? we have 40 seconds before we go to the break, go ahead. political and rest of the people from europe will rise up at some point. i mean, we've already seen a tremendous amount of political instability in france. i think it's only going to get worse. i agree that the, the incumbent governments of europe have shown themselves incredibly, serv. while these of either us government effectively have done whatever the us government is wanted. but the, the, the, the public's appetite or tolerance for this insanity is rapidly waning. and eventually there will be so much instability on the ground that they will be forced either out of office or force to change their policies. i think. all right, well that'll have all that. if i hold that thought we're going to go to a hard break. can after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the next forever war. stay with our to

the voltage to the right. so see what's printing was, are out there. so some of this, so basically of course we need your last name was needed. read those can, will be used to be imagine

we have some more more than one by us or someone was this, we weren't sure i knew people to the, the the welcome next across software. all things are considered 9 people about true manual discussing the next forever war. the go back to kevin in hamilton. this conflict is just has been much about propaganda and controlling the narrative as it has been about military hostilities coming. i mean, it's very interesting the way western media is that describes the conflict. it's called, called the ukranian, russia war, the russian, the russia, ukraine, war on all these kinds of things. but really what it is, i mean, this time,

last year the ukranian army had been destroyed and it's been slowly but surely reposition and with material money, ammunition, etc, by nato. so this is a nato russia conflict. okay. we should say that and repeated inputs and correct people with they don't say it because that's what it is you're having. this is what, what i think is very, very dangerous. but also, i personally think is an opportunity because nato is putting it's a reputation on the line and it's losing okay. now in less, one party wants to go to the ultimate level of escalation, which god forbid we ever get there. nato is dealt itself a pretty poor hand. kevin, i agree, i think nato is in over its head. i think this is something that a number of the speakers have already mentioned or, or certainly entered out today. and i wanted to pick up on your, your point of votes uh, mainstream media coverage in the west. and i think this is one of the very serious

challenges that we face um, from the western side, to try to bring some sanity into our foreign policy to try and bring an end to conflicts like this is that the information we receive is, is so skewed and you know, you have decades of intense source of phobia and in north america, this has been cultivated through, you know, the hollywood machinery, mainstream media, you know, government so, so that's a background. and then you also have recording that's simply not accurate. and so one of the challenges we really face here is getting out accurate information about the causes of the war about how the war has actually been unfolding and about some real possibilities for peace. and so i think that this is um, a challenge that we really have to get. i get better at here because to demetrius boeing about the role that the public can play in, hopefully not having this conflict extended definitely the public has to put pressure on or elected officials. this will happen, i think, more organically in europe because of the economics prices they're facing. but we

need to see this in north america as well. we need to see north american citizen citizens in canada, united states standing up and letting their governments know that this cannot continue. and so this is, this is a real project that we have to undertake here in the west. like i said, injecting some sanity into our foreign policy, it's only going to be the people that will do that. i think, well, i'm very if i make it into director, i'm sorry. what right at one, which i think it is very important in this context, at least if you're living in north america. and that is despite the extraordinarily skewed media coverage and the enthusiasm amongst the mainstream media for this war . a call that came out in february, which was quite surprising to the, the national post which commissioned it found it only 32 percent of canadians supported, continuing to arm ukraine. imagine what that number would be if people were getting the facts. so even here in canada, which has not suffered nearly as much economically as europe has as a result of this uh, this crazy sanctions for a you see that less than

a 3rd of canadian support continuing to arm ukraine in a very pro ukraine media environment. a exactly to be that's very interesting to me too because you have a very, very powerful ukrainian diaspora in canada. and i find that is a, let me pull in jim here, jim, i mean, kind of echoing with dimitry and, and kevin and said this is an elite more, this is an elite narrative. okay. and, and it's, and because so much of the media is controlled. there's so much censorship right now where you as you're aware, archie was thrown off of youtube and i'll, i'll other barriers are put in front of us here. and even after all this controlled media and all the filters and all that, it's amazing. the number of people that are in the beginning to change their mind to your thoughts, jim. this people didn't finish to get through this. another narrative does get through. you know, this week was your shift of these main street stations is terrible. there are millions, millions more people watching joe rogan than watching anything on the,

on the mainstream media. and, you know, it is defined, it's happening now between the lead media culture and popular culture. that's why they're so intent on sensor in the internet. because the stories do get through the stories about russia and ukraine, the stories about israel and palestine that they don't want to tell, told, are being told and people do to see them. so what you have is this bizarre and dangerous divide between what people are feeling and what the main stream media is them is showing and demonstrating. don't forget only 2729 percent of the public is either a democrat or republican that most people are independent. but the media is all divided up among blue and blue and red tribalism. and that's the narrative they get . but people are, are going away from that and get back to point that you set about that. cuz what i was describing before was i think the video cards think they can do, but i agree with you. i don't think they're gonna do it. they don't believe that they control everything and they can turn the world on and turn it off when they

want. but there's another player here that's not going to play the game anymore, and that's russia. and that's what makes it so dangerous. unpredictable. do you have this split between what the, what this delusional idea that they get about themselves from their own narratives or reflect the background in the media about this is what we can do. and this is what the real story is. and everybody else in the world is a no, that's not the real story, but that's not what you can do. so that's the problem. it's, it's so interesting is we have so many different people from different countries on this program. and they all echo the same thing and said, you know, there's narrative coming on doing that, just not so too long to go. doesn't make any sense here. but kevin, want to put me one of the devious elements of this narrative coming out of the west, is that it's about values. they always package it as values. and if you, you know, you don't have our values, it means you don't have any values at all. and that makes it easy to demonize here . and i think that that's what i find, you know, sickening is watching. what watching, you know,

we have to protect sovereignty of ukraine, but then they go around boeing, south africa, you know, and diminishing it. solve or do you have to choose a side, okay. but, and that is, africans always tell me that he said, why do we have the true size it accomplished the you created, kevin. it's been the time or the challenge of empires to try and rally their populace behind wars up in rather not sight. and this is something that the united states has as encountered. i mean, you know, i, ever, since it's a really expansionist history, past world war 2, you know, and, and entering into the uniform woman after the class of the soviet union, how do you get to the american public, the find all these conflicts. and there's a number of strategies that use, obviously it didn't, you know, they are spreading democracy. they're liberating peoples from, from oppressive tyrants. they use the language of values, but as, as, as ideology to mobilize people to try and, you know, suppress domestic opposition to these wars. so i think you're right, it's clearly it's nonsensical when you look at the actual behavior of the united

states military, around the world. even if you look at their economic behavior incredibly course is incredibly expletive of, of, uh, you know, less powerful countries. if you think about, you know, the washington consensus, this new liberal model that has basically been imposed upon the developing world. so there's no values behind that beyond agreed and exploitation. but of course, you can be an american or canadian, or a british, or, or french politician and stand up in front of your populace and say, well, we're pretty much going to exploit the sport people. right? so yeah, they have to use the language of values, but it is, it is nonsensical when i think that this is one of the things that we need to be pointing out repeatedly when we speak to people in the last step of this conflict. because we need to point out the incredible contradiction between the statements of values that are being made in the, as the behavior of our governments in supporting this conflict. i think we need to highlight that contradictions as, as firmly as we can. you know, dimitry, you know,

i, i think it's so much is a stake here and, and in, in we see it in the criticisms around the world of this conflict. and i don't know, maybe i'm, you know, i'm going to the point of hyperbole here. but this is kind of an arc of history, 500 years of western control of the globe, of international trade. it's being severely challenged right now. d dollarization is going on. now we have institutions that are being developed beyond the wes, out of the reach of the west. and it seems to me that there's an ukraine is turning into an inflection point because this kind of dom a domineering activity. not just since the 2nd world war, but ever since, you know, the exploration of the new world e, which even itself is kind of been a colonial term in my over exaggerating at dimitri is not at all. i think there's a whole reason why we've seen this tidal wave of propaganda and mccarthy is. and frankly in the west, towards those of us criticize this war is because the leads in the west for them.

this is existential, not in the sense that their survival is at stake. although they push the envelope too far, all of our survival may be at stake. but in a sense that their power is at risk, their dominance is at risk, and that's why they are throwing everything in the kitchen sink at this particular conflict. because with the, if they lose this, it's all over, it goes up. and in fact, i think it is a, it is up and all they're doing is refusing to confront reality. the combination of russia and china is an obstacle that is insurmountable for the west. at this stage, the economic power, the resource power, the technological sophistication, the population, the land mass in every can spend also the diplomatic power of russia in china, in the world today, particularly in the global south. as such that the western deletes can no longer enjoy the air of use a gemini, it is over and they are having to come to grips with that. and it isn't going to be a very, very rocky ride in the years ahead. precisely because they refused to come to grips with that. well, exactly, let's go and came here, reflect upon what dimitri just said here. a hedge about never gives up easily. as

a matter fact, the heads you mom will take a lot of, uh, uh, powers around them down if it's, if it's necessary in defense of their, their position and i don't, i don't see the us being magnanimous about it, jim. that's right. i mean, the thing is a manual. tom said this is in existence, all faithfully, europeans and americans for the un nato, for the, for the western a lease. and they're not going to, it's essential for them as it is for russia. and that's what the danger of this is . look, it's, you know, the famous landing product sometimes continues to do something. sometimes 10 years happens in a week. and what we have is, in the last year and a half years, what happens is, you know, and things of different people didn't think were possible, suddenly became clearly possible. i mean, rush, i didn't know how it was gonna, what was going to happen with the sanctions. none of the world knew it was going to happen militarily. people have been afraid of the united states, you know, charlie, since the defeat of the soviet union. and within 6 months everybody stood up. we

can get away with this. we can waive economically with these sanctions. you know, the worst of us. but richard is a military power that can fair enough for the united states. so let's try and i guess what big they sure are. and the rest of the world, what will self, you know, they were, they are tired precisely of the st. the morning. they're saying, hey, we sat around for 30 years, americans came and gave us a sermons and sanctioned the okay, well we're an airport in the road. unfortunately, we're out of time, but we've ended on a good note here. tired of the sanctimony because i think that's exactly what it is . gentleman, that's all the time. we have a one to think, my guess in new york, toronto and in hamilton. and of course, i want to thank our viewers, folks, time and remember prospect rules the the,

the russian states, narrative as one of the most sense community best in most all sense and up in the system must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians cruising and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for what question did you say it would twist, which is the

cheap energy companies without you russian guys? cheap and suppose affordable. and so if you're in the stables, which has been proved, not the case disease or will that this no longer there? the people i say one that's it's you know, because it's a cell phone. if i can see it on the other should the girl and if it's super store also understand most of the ship was the boat and you get a new one. you both use combustion wanted and could take both of these calculations like leaving the model. so for example, for your wife or you decide on sanctions or sanction country a section of crystal because you want to change the behavior of the government was present was that hasn't happened,

affections has some function the the, the laws which to search as well as the other way law, so that gives us the of the comfortable with the good news about this this is this a boost of scenes was doing a bunch of.