to us and he gets 3 years in jail for boys and his co workers. and then he comes out and he's a doctor again. it to be a lot. it seems impossible. how can anybody pass a government background investigation and have your license? yeah, and have your license reinstated? yes. well, i'll tell you this, this guy, it's an incredible sociopath. you know, he was, he wasn't ex marine and he got out of prison. and he gave the store, he says, you know, i'm an ex marine. i got to find, i got an a bottle in the roll, but here's a piece of paper from the governor, restoring my civil rights. nobody checked it. nobody verified it. and the next thing, you know, there is a doctor again, this time out in the west coast, and it'd be a facility and he's doing well. he's actually engage to be a nurse. and then the story comes out and uh,

everything turns terrible for him and his fiance and his fiance, her name was kristen kenny does a beautiful, beautiful young lady. and she goes home to mom and she says, you know, mom, i really look this guy swining go, but i can't live with them anymore after i heard what happened. you know, but when i was living with him, i was getting all these headaches for some reason, headaches. but i, i feel better now and the next thing you know, swipe boat shows up at the door and he's so charming the charms is way back into hawaii. it was about 2 months later she can't take it anymore again and she goes to the park. she takes out a gun and she blows her brains out of my going here. and can i go for that? can you will actually you can because even though she shot her sale and the family had the body cremated, they kept a lock of hair. and her head was loaded with austin if you don't mind go was even

poisoning his own fiancee. what will make a long story short, he actually lot winds up in my neighborhood at the northwood long island b a medical center and you know, something interesting. he was there on a residency any guess what, what particular medical field in psychiatry that he had to go in front of the board of trying psychiatry. and can you this each and every one of them that he should be in the program. and he's that incredible and then that's when i got that phone call that sort of each i lives there. and i happened because one of my agents and i go down to visit him. now let me tell you this guy look like a movie. saw. just got off the call cause wearing these ada saw sunglasses, you know, cells in john, if i didn't know better, i'd want to introduce them to my own daughter. yeah. right. these are the next marine got there. right. you know, spending on nation zeros, i'd say come on,

the i says when i go join the family. wow. if i didn't know very well. so he's given me the same bar and draws story and role. and then when i saw it challenging him, he's not so charming. you know, so want to talk in the next thing. you know, he leaves the country where he's the country goose is in bob way, africa, the reason of way africa because it's such a shortage of physicians. there. he's killing women and children and pregnant women . my god. and they have an arrest warrant, say him, but he returns the united states because he had to renew his passport. this boy went on yet to another country and we arrested him, but not for murder because we didn't have any evidence that he murdered anybody at all. here we were sent him, but every federal ages, they re crime line to the government. he said lie or it's of the government. if you

want to a federal agent, you're guilty of a felony. that's right. and 3 years in jail, full line through the government. so that gave us a window of opportunity, a window of 3 years, the trying to prove that he murdered any of our nation's heroes at the north port va medical center. and that's what started me on, on that particular journey. let me ask you to why is it so difficult to think for medical professionals to be able to spot a colleague who, who can kill in a hospital environment. medical professionals, of course, are supposed to 1st do no harm. is it, is that it, that they're supposed to be hillers, and not killers. so people generally don't suspect their colleagues of these terrible crimes. it will look if you are so inclined to commit a number is what perfection and what location might you choose? right?

tape, you might choose a profession that kind of gives you the legal power of life and this over an individual. what professions do we know have that? you know, you, you might want to take a profession where people take, you know, have dedicated themselves to saving lives. so who is going to believe that in this wonderful universe of compassionate people who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, these going to be someone hiding in that group next and charlie taking lives? it's almost impossible to believe. i mean, all your coworkers have dedicated themselves to saving people. you see, miracles performed almost every day in the hospital and to believe that somebody is intentionally murdering people. is very, very difficult. you know, it's very difficult for the fireman to believe that one of his co workers is

actually starting fine. that's right, right. it's the same thing here. it's the universe of such dedicated professional people that no one wants to bully. now one of their co workers would be intentionally taking lots and i can understand that i can see we are speaking with an investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his investigations, into medical serial killers. we have to take a short break, but you're not going to want to miss the 2nd half of this conversation. stay tuned . we'll be right back. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the boss can do either steve with key at the washington state. the goal is to begin the computer system on send 2 professional men city and to keep the list of over but huge, but they used to do this for

the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we are speaking with renowned investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his work tracking down medical serial killers, those medical professionals who become self murderers. welcome back again, bruce. glad to have you. thank you, bruce to tell us a little bit about motivation, the average serial killer. when, when one thinks about john wayne gacy or gary allan ridge way or dentist reader is associated path or a psycho path, it becomes more and more bold, often even taunting the police. but that's not the case with medical serial killers, visit. tell us about their motivation. what leads them to do it? you know, i'll tell you what i've seen over the years. um, not a psychiatrist or

a psychologist, but this is when i witness. i would say the number one, the number one reason that i've seen is something called munchausen syndrome by proxy right now, much as an central and black proxy is, is often displayed when a mother will maybe intentionally harm a child and bring that child into the hospital it shows the staff what a clearing dedicated, outstanding parent they are, and is trying to be so compassionate, please help my child and they want the staff to give them understanding and compassion. well in some strange way. this is the same thing with medical c o kills . you think about medical serial killers when you look at their evaluations, like okay, nurses, okay doctors. except when it comes to code and a co writing, an emergency, a cold blow. and when you read the evaluations, you will see that big in an outstanding when it comes to code one of my medical

serial killers. kristin gilbert, the doctors would say, you know if i ever cody, i will one kristin gill that there she starts blocking or is it the young in turns was scanned out of her mind. she case control, she's a hero. she's outstanding. why? this is one of these people want because throughout their life they will kind of put aside and they didn't get the attention that they. ready wanted i do when they ever consider there was continued more zeros and heroes. now, son and this is an opportunity for them to get the attention that they never had before. and now they don't care about the victims. victims is just an end to the means. they care about the attention that comes to them and that i've seen throughout the world is perhaps the number one reason for not exclusively. some people likes wind o here. i just loved the power of life and death. nasa your power there over the

summer. what incredible high for him, you know, wanting incredible turn on that he could act like god that he had the power of life and death and in mexico. also calm. but there are a few other reasons. sometimes is a case ongoing in texas. now, we're a doctor is just pissed off at management and his co workers and he says, you know, i'm the best doctor. he, he can even compare it to me and you know what they did to me. they took away some of my privileges, they reduced my office, they cut my money back, i'll show them how so then when patients started going unexpectedly, then oh realize how important are you and they will come back to me. my god, you yeah. are you pretty sure that those are some of the most common reason that i've seen throughout the world like this be able to walk 2 or 3 years ago? i entertain the idea of writing

a book about serial killers. i've written 8 non fish, non fiction books, i thought it would be kind of a fun departure. and i especially wanted to talk about their motivation and what made them so bold before they were finally caught. so i wrote letters to 8 or 9 serial killers who were in prison, including some of the most famous names, many of them, including gary alan ridgeway the green river killer, the b t k killer son of sam tex watson from the manson family. they actually answered me, but their answers were all the same. they said they found jesus in prison, jesus had forgiven them. jesus was, was saving their lives, they were living their lives for jesus, etc, etc. ridgeway even sent me. it was a big package. it had 50 religious pamphlets in it, and he asked me to distribute these pamphlets around my neighborhood. so of course i true, i threw them away. but my image, your conclusion was that,

that there are manipulative behavior continues in prison all these years later that, that this manipulative personality is what keeps them going. they think it's going to get them something to, at least profess to be christian, for example. so my question is, is that also common among the serial killers once they've been caught? and if it is, how are they able to, to cover it up for so long as they build their medical careers as well obviously that sort of a 2 point questions. the 1st part about being uh once, once they are incarcerated, well, many of them will decline to speed because there are additional murders out there. god. right? and they tried and convicted and even received the death penalty depending on where

it occurred. so they're not going to do anything else, right? because when we suspect these medical serial killers are killing 36, the a 100 people often we don't have the proof on hand that they killed that many people cry. you know, we have narrow it down to the very, very best cases that there are and pursue those cases. but they know they know there are other victims out there. okay. and we should be able to approve it another bit them, especially with some of the that they gave us, they could be retry, prosecuted and possibly even executed. so they're not going to say anything at all about that. all right, and you know it's something interesting because when the whistle blow was in the case of chris and gilbert, this is a real example of whistle blowers fan, had floyd backgrounds and you know, um some of them had

a substance abuse problems and other personal problems and they knew this was gonna all come out. but they had incredible coverage to comfortable us and tell us what had happened. well, what do you think happened after the trial? so quiz thing, gilbert. who were your legs killed about 30 or by nations. heroes at north hampton b. a medical center in massachusetts. uh, she goes to trial and she's found guilty and the whistle blowers were just tremendous. we wouldn't know that it wasn't for themselves. so when they return to work, do you think that the agree it is he will say, oh no. just the opposite. just the opposite because you'd say what the heck the you do the us. now when people drive by the hospital, they don't say cool. that's the hospital that saves my dad. that's the hospital. it does wonderful science. no. b, c, that's the hospital with the medical serial killer work. now why did you have to do that? you room for all of us?

you room the reputation not. thank you for getting rid of the murder that they never, ever. all they heard was criticism from the a coworkers. why did you call these fact the general? why did you believe bring the police in here? why did you bring all of his bad publicity to us while genetically the triple bruce tell us where people can learn more about the work that you do and about your book? sure, well the website is same as the name of the work behind the murder cars dot com. it details all the stories of medical serial killers inside the va that i personally investigated, including dr. swain go and kristin gilbert and others, including a, a physician in albany that old in medical records to put the veterans into research studies. they should have never been ended and they were murdered. i mean,

they're nearly some incredible stories in that book. and also, you know, there's a, there's a television show out this cool. um, was it called very scary people? yes, thank you very scary. p h o n and it has 2 hours on swine go. yes, but i like to find people to um, to read the book, to go to the website, to email me. i get emails all the time from veterans and non veterans and people who have been victimized by this. and, you know, and so one thing we have to mention here is a whole human side to this john, you know, we talk about the statistics in the message, but these are human games we're talking about. but for the family isn't. so it's hard to show. so could you imagine, do i mean if i, if i rang your doorbell one day and i said, excuse me, sir, you know, my name is bruce saffron. and i'm from new v a. and we have reason to believe that

your father's death was of a suspicious nature. can i go to the cemetery and dw nadia runs? yes. and could you imagine your visit like that? could you imagine sitting in a court room and hearing all this evidence of how your father was murdered and a v a hospital asked that he spent his entire life? yeah, saving america, registering military to the movies of the hassle. imagine the human side, it is how you would feel. and sometimes when we talk about this to 6, how many mirrors and the techniques and all that, we forget to mention the human side of the families and the families have always been just amazing for me. just fantastic people. fantastic. well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. this was fascinating and we were very happy to have you. so i wanna thank bruce for joining us and for sharing his di standing experiences. and thanks to our viewers for watching the author,

bret easton, ellis, one said, quote, it strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cool place on quote. in many cases, i'm sorry to say that's true, but we're fortunate to have people like bruce hackman out there doing the right thing. i'm john kerry. ok, thanks for watching the whistle blowers until next time. 2 2 2 2 the the cutting situation to find those old, i think it's a great political opportunity to offer goods for the 1st time to articulate the words to say, listen, we have a multi, a whole lot of relationships with all the powers of the, of the world. and what to dictate relationships between african countries and those

black ones. he's the national interest and i would see that happening at the moment the he had to all the wagner military point which attempted a new to the interruption, have cooled off his troops advancing on mosca as agreed to step further escalate the situation, the officer del to enter the rebellion and was quoted by the bell of russian presidents who was in tools with the any precautions throughout the day. also this out to the russians, the ministry and security agents letters when the device has been switched off, the top of all the sites and see by the seats and replace them. so my, this is an attempt to on russia or not people, and our actions to protect behind on things such

a threat to be taught the webpage and address explanation, branding the fog into rebellion and attack on russia. on this peoples of ours, the country will defend itself from treason, the regime, all the town. so terrorist operation remains in russia despite the peace agreement, which between the president and fella roost at the christian code of the head of marketing goes in the or it's 11 pm here in the russian capital. and this is also the international with the latest news updates. it's good to have you with us this hour. we start with the latest breaking news from russia when he had all the constitutional committee of the federation council has declared. the accounts with tara measures will remain active and a number of russian regions to supply the head to all the vulgar military group. cooling off his troops, marching on moscow, and agreeing to steps to the d escalate. the situation was also the private

military group attempted to locust rates of new today earlier loc, the tungsten troops, with deployed mainly in the city of ross solve situation in southern russia from where they are now withdrawing the forces that we've managed to seize the headquarters of one of the military districts, aside from last many roads will block. so now the region south of the country's capital is how these lockers had explained his decision to back. so they wanted to just spend pmc bulk. now we went to the march of justice on june, the 23rd. and today we got within just 200 kilometers, must go. during this time, we've not shared a single drop of blood from all 5 just now we've approached the moment when blood can be shed, realizing the full responsibility for the fact that russian blood will be set to one side. we turn our columns around and go in the opposite direction to the field camps, according to the plan. we are standing right next to the military headquarters here in

a row solve that was blocked for the entire day. the streets here are still closed . however, the soldiers, i'll be a wagon in groups, i'm now collecting their belongings, are now getting prepared. so the you can still, you can see that there are a lot of 5 civilians here on the streets taking pictures. we can see that the wagner group have turns on their equipment and they're getting ready to be you. i've seen them collecting their ammunition the whole thing to david and arrive here the west. and it looks like the situation has now completely de escalate. it's 5, so what we'll see, of course, uh, what's happening in the morning and it rolls off to the people here and the gauge, their opinion about what happens. vermont calls are of artsy and real stone ones on the belly, russian presidents press service admin succeeded hen brokering the pay scale. the negotiations were held throughout the day. we came to an agreement on the end admissibility of unleashing

a bloody massacre on the territory of russia. the head of the wagner pmc accepted the proposal of the president of beller. it was to stop the movement of armed wagner personnel on the territory of russia and to take further steps to de escalate attention. this morning the russian president informed his belly russian contra part about the situation in the south. a freshman, the leaders agreed on joint actions. lucas single made a number of clarifications and having agreed with president putting agreed on talks with the head of the wagner pm. see if get any precaution, negotiations were held throughout the day as a result because and accept the proposal on the admissibility of blood action on the chairs refresher. because the part is also read a complete the escalation to the publicity this they have come through. and absolutely, when we deal with difficult spelled out security guarantees for the disposal of the parent males are a group of all also with the bell russian president. it does help folks with the security edges on the same issue. let's discuss this with,

i guess. now across live 2 atomic, all the seconds 9 jerry is 2023 full, my presidential asper runs when he, thanks for joining us on the program. this evening is being an extraordinary day in news for russia. and now it seems, have culminated in this piece still bella roo says step pin to help broke at this deal. and it seems like a crisis has been of the to do you think that's the end of the month to that? what would you think? we'll see more drama. yeah, actually i had been totally paying attention to the situation that is building up. why can our group, especially on that is the issue a beginning regarding, on with the, with, to the best will bundle in cost on the tours and 30, you know, i, you know, it's like totally not a very good thing. you know, tools to get a deal, i guess if it, especially if that like brochure on die in need out like bloody good, 14 that have been all for a very long time for to do the interest and the integrity of dual shop pollution.

you know, to help it, but i really do believe that i do supportive empower, emboldened by december 20th. i do this. did you know that doesn't mind that they're based on past notices. if i go to the gym to be all there is confrontation with within the m c bowl. and just to me is really not, not really very good, especially at the very good to complement when all of your children's i suppose to come to get out in front of your home. what is making a little funny that have to do with brush are about is encouraging you, you claim that the company does not really a very good thing, but i, i like the fact that i'm approved in the show got turned in. and if some deal was broke up, you know what, what, i don't think this should be all, but i think there should be consequences, you know, for this kind of reckless armstrong, disability, reckless this is comfortable or bringing local problems that are strong condition. this is, this is a prison, the help of

a winning support on the ocean police on the front point shows i want something to 9 percent of worship. said yes, we have to get, i would like to been put you know, so is trisha web i it's simply because our app are probably more familiar to establish mean because 100, but i really, 3 months i just decided to stitch an attack. you know, in this day, you know, even making a little of him like that, i didn't make it to you just choose on who i think is very, very by dean. i think she actually some was where it is and to prevent such accidents from happening or you are surprised, some of the chief agreed to the day. let me not, i'm thinking either. you are the cause of the turbans in his plan to malta and moscow with, you know, by eva, he was told it was late enough where he couldn't refuse, or he was given every day and he won't say it's what do you think the best of my knowledge, he's a partial eclipse. you're going to talk to the mall of nearly 347. got out. and uh,

we're gonna be somewhere 50000 the opinion about we'll show it about to be a little bit, you know, video companies really 3 for centuries. you know, the help or was succeeded in dealing with many of the funds focus the kids are 20 and up there, but i really 3, you know, leadership just like the way to go to the rush up to make them to somebody to get the month. i think um, it was a video reckless action done, i believe is wrong, i believe in some sort of a 1000000000. and i believe there are changes. you need more about team getting what do i do? so do you mind watching one, depending if you're continuing with this action, he's going to recklessly, also wanted to share with you working on for you that i want someone to have the individual to out. you're working in the most of the, most importantly in ukraine, in the issue. i'm to avoid them to point out do this before would you be portfolio

the forward this to the energy, the power called them their blogs are just, it's been hacked and he passed that if you want to know with that particular i've shown it made me barely present when let me just point the in, tap into the workforce from which i know you're not going to get it. and i've been studying the division of accepting the terms of argument and time to find the supp london. you know, i pull that up as an for useful something for you. so that's the difference. what this has done is when de paul is 24 hours or so everybody's attention around the world as being diverted from the bottle field and ukraine to what's going on right here in russia. do you think that's what we've seen this, this drama that we've seen play out? well, how many wellness occasions on the bathroom rebuilding ukraine? i think somehow the ending of the drama is where it is for us from doing

the does that you worship traditional? what do we do with the frontline? what do you think it does show very clearly that there are some people within the possibility of going to know to be so interested in perhaps maybe on financing what we're trying into to some degree. what are the old personality and talk to mental freedom, don't we all we need to go alone and we want the ones, you know, we will. so it may have of cost them to some degree, some level of what of the choose from. because so many people on the outside that outside in for the girlfriend, especially when you look at them and, and they don't want to be one of those things to make, to make it to what it comes to. and then the cause, nobody would want to deal with the videos. but you know, i do recognize territory and culture in class to take that kind of is. and that's why you don't see any support from the neutral countries. you don't in part where