we were back in 22000 to date 2010 era. nobody believes the rest of we can see what is done and there was real prospect. so i was give you the difficulty of finding a way of reading through which should we much to reaching some sort of mutual understanding. it was a cooling back, but there was no way claims. going to get into the nature of sheep food shots because it was contested, tertiary between, between russia. right. we're now in a situation where there's always this very nice people. so the way a side of me, russia has already lost out very bad, a number of mutual sweet, sweet, and spin the particular of joint or joining nature. nature is to actively today about light people have ukraine joint. i'm russia and it's an attempt to prevent box. this actually brought the prospect close to just and we need to find a way back to position with 1st of all, to such put to each other. and 2nd, be, we can find a festival of why guaranteeing,

guaranteeing ukraine secure as you've just been what was pretty much direct to the top. the secondly, the logo is what's your funding way of demonstrating to russia each security is not from i see all you, most of the world does and things like that. it to think softer. angular michael said the minutes records and un security council resolution 2202. i don't know what you think about the fact that she said it was just a way of giving time for the nature of countries to fill the weapons that to be able to i don't know what i mean. commit genocide to complete the job as i've been done. you have to convince the fact is that most of them, i think, well, you know, western europe is declining region economically, any case and with a finland and sweden join who k as these. all this entire region is declining economically in terms of its power. and the rest of the world is moving on that. so that's why they remain neutral in, in great pods. i mean, did the men hska,

as i say, ratified the un security council resolution revelations, not shock you and make you realize booty and had no alternative given that he was believing something for years that wasn't true. this is actually just so i hope to huge a message because didn't get stuck for you early on. i don't know what protection your slicing from bank of america, but the germans didn't work quite hard. hang on medical said it was just a means of low as a delaying tactic. and it was my way of diffusing what at the time like a very nice the civil war in ukraine and a nice and giving an opportunity for the 2 sides to find a way out. now of course you got the stock and if i had to, i blame ukrainians more than the russians for the say that nevertheless, they've got to stop. and we're all sitting on the edge, but all kind of really,

which still does not justify what russia days in, in february of last year. done just okay. well, obviously it's got, you know, that's not the way, right? you would say and you, you believe me the ukrainians that is not unfair because so then scale piece candidate in care of then um the image perhaps of this all it got cooler moist q is going against isn't the fact that it was already a de facto kind of nature call any from the phone call. we have on youtube. people can want you to victoria newland choosing. who are the forces that run ukraine? this was the book against that was to be used against russia. and whereas, diplomats like yourself bill buns at the now at the c i a was saying, oh this is what russian does one level. but there were other forces with blinking a noun and sullivan. and so one who wanted this as a showdown to get russia back into the yoke, seeing the error full of just being ordered around. that's presumably with the

russians thinking the rest of the world, things as well. no, but i shouldn't get secret, my guns and the rest of the world that's on there with genuine attempts to resolve differences from administering them from their own. what made them a much hard was russia seizure, crimea, and in 2014, by which time of construction it will robust the dirt to go. and at that point, the ukraine, which had been deeply split country split between the sort of pro russian hall, a pro western hoff. you find about the pro russian ha cheese, the procedure metrics to support him for united independent ukraine. and when the russian troops went in there, in february 2022 in expectation, or pushing goals with flowers, welcome. know that they found themselves fighting a pretty united bush again. and we in the west believe so that united nation has the right to to hassle. right. and support. we are buying the option to continue to

do so. we think the right are coming from dish has to be ukraine. that survives, i'm fine. so peaceful relationship with russia and the much like to way of getting to that is for them to achieve significant ministry progress and shouldn't be gain significant amounts of church rate, which rush, i kind of got to punch. so tiny brands and i'll stop you. the more from the former you came back to the rush or after this break, the, [000:00:00;00] the what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy foundation. let it be an arms race is on all sides. very dramatic. the only personally,

i'm going to resist, i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very unclear to get a time time to sit down and talk the kind of situation that you find, although i think it's a great political opportunity to offer kids for the 1st time to act duplex, to the world, to say, listen, we have a multi, a whole lot of relationships with all the powers of the world. and what would dictate relationships between african countries and those black ones is the national interest. and i would say that happening at the moment, the the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the full,

but you can bass of the russia. so tony brands and you said the grocer expected a quick victory. we now know that boots in said in st. petersburg, there was a piece deal initial, therefore they withdrew from key of isn't the point about ukraine as far as roger is concerned about finishing its new liberal experiment. you yourself talked about how we proved and wanted to join nato. it's at one point. it's over that experiment as though it's not even about done yet. it's going to hand skin, all those people who were being killed with nature nation weapons since 2014 in the going to have this is about something different and i have to ask several is britain now it war with russia? because britain noises, it isn't the wheels in nature, this is why they're physically just as old as the and we have the there are going to prison is we have a us whistleblower for the pentagon which will be just going to jail. is me a, is being invited to the grand jury of,

with leaks from the pens. again saying british soldiers in ukraine fighting the russians know there are, i don't know the number actually. there are a number of specially just going by the leave that know i only have is from the press. there are small number. we're in the 10s of the hundreds of thousands, especially forces that advising you cringe on how to use the weapons which support . and that is not true at 9 meters, u. k. that is true of the us, the number of other questions which will not directly bolt well. and there's just as well as when not because russia, which has of defense funded by one pence batch as a whole nation. which stuff of very, very bad indeed. if it goes into a direct was, why had to mean why? well, because of the case, if they were the russian soldiers in britain, i can only imagine what britain's reaction would be by fresh and special forces were in central london. but clearly there is new to the parents. so

what you just said doesn't really make any sense to anyone. i would appreciate that the only assumption which i think is the likely assumption that any war between nature and russia remained of the conventional russia would lose lose dramatically . i'm sorry, i don't understand how they would lose because there's a uh, autism age of nuclear response in russia, and there are no tactical nuclear weapons and bella roost, but then we do live it in the past few days. we're talking about the end of the world here as well. i have no spends, i deal with a lot of people given you k one. i mean you k. and when i talked to him about the situation, they said to me, there isn't as much as i say to them. no, he's not. the person that i knew was a cold, rational calculate you, a russian church, which is why i'm, we're going to be called that actually russia will avoid getting into a direct confrontation, they should. and secondly, even if that concentration happens,

cushion will finally avoid that. try to contribute to competition, cuz then you put confrontation, everybody, including russia usage, clearly, and that is that the tyrants, which is why native nations and not directly and officially entering the war and why we're hearing voices in russia is saying it's time to act with tactical nuclear weapons to show and remind the world about new created turns because britain, germany from the united states of boring weapons and there are even soldiers on the ground as well. we have indeed heard a few such voices. you mentioned the october 2nd. i turned off my note, the bitch cooling for nuclear strikes against against nature as i what proof necessary to impress a bunch of citizenship, russia, and we have since seen a space for which, including one income, i stopped saying this is much um and then the other off would like to meet you train it very well. not sure. all right,

so it's saying the reactions face from the west. if we get into that sort of church, which would be dissolved for russian. i think the sensible people on both sides of very clear that crushing the new care threshold would be a disaster all the way around. a testament to the multiplicity of use allowed in russia, people who are wanting to be with the current governor from saturday on the, on the rumble. i mentioned earlier, the decline of western europe, economic age, germany, and recession. clearly, britain, for the 1st time since 1961 finding itself uh with uh, a uh, debts hi them, its a annual a gdp and then food insulation. i'm going crazy and weapons being funneled the public money to be a systems rolls royce, kinetic backup, and so it goes to big defense companies. what happened was to western europe when, and this is what most of the world does, think rush is going to win because it has more weapons. and as more resources,

what happens to west and europe when russia wins? well, as i check versus not gonna do it, because finally russia is our gun. if it gets it, we just need somebody to rush me out, gun, or no one will i go wrong? as i say, nature has 10 times of defense. been fresh if we get into that, then rush solutions, which is exactly why the russian don't want to push it very hard to avoid getting into that, that, that direct confrontation at the moment is a very interesting movement. the mileage oft, uh, russia, which is frankly say the last chapman i think being pushed a long, long way back from its initial initial lines of success. the thing is both bankruptcies. uh, over the early part of this year, the russian, russian army took finally a robert unemployed because you trade in town by which i took 8 months to do it.

you credit and it was on now that i'm just taking a string of very small villages back. i'm so sorry. i'm sorry to interrupt, but we don't really know what's actually going on in the field. the embedded reporters from the west and from the other side, you know, we don't exactly know. but what we do know is that some say that russia, once a long war and is waiting for all this uh, european and american weaponry to come in. and then to be destroyed. and that's what i was getting has been what happens with the newer because russia has put its defensive then it can just wait and destroy the one by one content over a matter of years and years. well, yeah, but it has costs for russia. well, you say you, your opinion front of me is indeed having difficulties with my mental though i think by quite match the difficulties was originally called brush as you can on the growth according to the i may have. yeah, well i'm, so i'm just, i'm really over to him and he doesn't know. no, we, we in the, okay, i'm, i'm, so i'm having problems. we've all got in particular punch pandemic problems. but

the reality is that russia is looking at a loss of its major sources of income. well, you'll guess guest shows in mind i'm not a question, but clearly clearly the by the ministrations destruction of the north stream pipeline, causing the biggest eco designs they're going to assume, which is one thing. but the india, china, the global south countries are more than enough to be able to replace the demand coming from us newer with true, i'm sure we'll rush and we'll continue. therefore, we'll hope in a way to sustain as population. but the significantly lower level, i think, impression gdc, perhaps there's already 4 by 6 percent or something since the will start to significantly lower. and then what is the job on the previous course report? what was this richard stuff? stuff where rush it was integration increasingly and so the question and global

call they have reasonable future. well, they can only gross in terms of it, you just are cut off for making sure the technology for major sources of management expertise. i'm from, it's most immediate customers neighbors in terms of training costs. that's what i want to say. don't think that's the way you know. i'm so we can do for in the middle east. i believe, you know, the president of the united. i remember it's was where the st. petersburg, florida rushes, the restaurant is the place to go to talk to a business. i believe. what about the sanctions? what do you think? because i have a game for that in the fall of energy committee. the evidence, and you said sanctions on russia, you know, it doesn't, there's not really much point and it's, uh, they don't really work. i'm not sure that's a pretty spot. i'm sure it's a precise change. what do i do not? i'm rather hostile. just say i'm rather hostile to sanctions, they never work and they certainly never work with regard to russia. quite a part of that. there are things that can be done. that remains having an effect economically,

but then not having any political effect. these are exact words. that's exactly right, and that remains the case of nevertheless, only assumption we get possible what that economic effect blows back. living standards for what we rushed side. yeah, i mean, we know the effect of us and e u sanctions on venezuela pumps tens of thousands killed ordinary venezuelans by the sanctioned them in his way of the impact on iran, on syria a to this day. because the united states occupies a 3rd of syria illegally right now in midland to seize the sanctions. but as you yourselves that, that for the sanctions on, you know, going to politically affect booting is very popular. clearly in russia, i mean, do you think britain itself sanctioning itself brittany tdm ports? gas? ukraine is being paid. zalinski is being paid by russia for transit freeze for the gas that goes to the you to keep the lights on. even now. rush it to the you, k,

the u. k is on douglas and suffering from some of the economic structures for very high trade prices and from relatively high energy prices. and that's the price that we're paying for some continuously one of the, ah, so what about countries as well? um i, i'm sure people are bumping off this question in this form. but if i were, i think the reaction would be that as a price was paid to deal effectively with the aggression that russia because i live in an information space without a free press, as demanded by law. i should add, there are laws in england against talking about the nazis of ukraine. just finally i'm there and that's wrong. that's our laws. natural tree laws introduced. i, i know full well neighborhood because you cannot broadcast in britain any television programs that talk about the nazis at nazi movements in ukraine. that alone,

there are restrictions on media. but i just want to finish on there on historic a royal relations with russia. how is it going to be rebuilt? because eventually, maybe they will rebuild the relations as you've always wanted between london and moscow. how, how do you think they could ever be put together again off to so much british weaponry was sent that to kill russians, let alone the sanctions named hunting or re russians from britain. but 1st of all, lost with just sleep. and a peace agreement has to be worked out, which is acceptable to do ukraine, which means it's just chief question packaged, as well as which rush out with the service to accept. even often it's things have actually been pretty cold for quite a long time. size a laptop we can begin to rebuild, we can begin to travel. so actually i haven't been in russia now to 2 and a half years and i are missing you to be

a travel and get russians traveling in the rustic. we can raise you economic link solar that's going to be hindered by very strong demand here, the pressure of pays proportion costs just the damage of the war. we can get people talking to each other, not cheap on say. you can look for a way of giving russia the huge security guarantees which make sure that we don't get into the sort of compensation to get okay. representative, they'll never be for any of that rebuilding, obviously. so dirty benton, thank you. thank you. that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episode, but a job as you can keep in judge by role as i shall media if it's not sensitive to in your country. and i do i channel going underground tv hon. they'll come to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see if that's the

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[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome to worlds a part should i say, or should i, wasn't me, unfortunately, is not known to be a nav is found the same british punk crosses. but these questions posed in the nice and they just came by they found appropriate because the class accurately, it sounds often and along with that they come in faces right now with regards to the upcoming for break summit in south africa. shouldn't the russian president indeed stay and must go off? so if you go all the way to johanna square can despise western pressure. we'll

discuss it. i'm now joined by the visa for who this senior research fellow at africa, asia dialogue is difficult. it is great to seem great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thanks. thanks for having me. now, before discussing break some and then i'll be into a political and legal intrigue surrounding if i want to ask you about this latest attend by a group of african leaders to meet in the conflict between asha and ukraine. and i would add the, the west on the background. what do you make of it? because i'm sure the, the africans, everything used to be europeans coming off with all sorts of piece initiatives. but having the tables turned is very unusual. in fact is, i think pretty unique case. yeah, i think it was, it was a unique case and it's a federal just kind is it said that dr. k is now ex boating. uh they are negotiating skills into other countries. uh,

but of course of you guys go to interest. yeah. and not only do they want to see pieces, presence of their muscles, the emphasize, but also after k is suffering from, you know, not just standing, the size of the business that is done in terms of claims for its allies of the cetera. but i think is also impacted. and if what security is going to be impacted if this will continue. so that's one of the reasons why they're there. but again, you know, africans are much more closer to what i showed than the middle of the country. so this is again, a group of individuals who are trying to us as the friend. you mentioned, the south african president, a serial around a full time. he was pretty straightforward in saying that the african liter see their intervention as in part and due to before the own people. because as you saw the these little just this conflicts but they owe everything surrounding this conflict sanctions. the barriers to global truth affect africa more than any of the continental. do you think the please?

all of those leaders, african leaders will be heard or hopefully heated. well, we hope you're going to be here, but already the conditions from both sides. i should have said that there's no going to pull out of the trees that it does quote that's from the 24th of february 2022. at the same time, we've had the bottom of the let's get during the test confidence that they had with the after candidate is in them. and you can keep saying that they're not going to be entering any negotiations with that i shot until the pulling out. so you have those very strong positions from both countries. so $11.00 does how the negotiation efforts are going to go ahead. uh, sort of remo pauses presented the 10 points, and uh, those steps to watch piece. but until of course, you've got these 2 conditions that both leaders are not willing to compromise on. uh, basically i do the, you mentioned 2 sides, ukraine and russia. but there's also a big elephant in the room here. and this is the,

the so called collective west. now what's interesting to me is that mr. room, a full, so he's not new to face making here. play the search and roll into anything out of complex, including the irish knows in island, the rather piece process. but he comes to the ukranian issue either at a time when the west is strictly against any uh, mediating at this point of time, they still believe that the, you know, english, ending anything with restaurant this point of time would be using to russia. so i wonder if i'm locating peace is actually a risk in business in this day and age what i don't think so. i think the piece mission is endorsed. i don't think so. i'm opposed to just pick up his bags and trouble to, to, to pull into creating and drive show without speaking through. set them both the

vision for somebody who do you think you would ask for permission then? i don't think you got permission from all sides. i think he had to extensively relationship as well. with the with funding mapleton. the must have been some discussion in that regard to we don't even know where the. yeah, the pets that i shall once did a good one to initiate because asians. but then they can not start the negotiation, so they are still a fit part to do so. but at the same time, i doubt if that's what i'm opposed to. and the lease is that involved with this mission would have gone without communicating with that part, the pots and the list. now, as you mentioned before, the african leaders and brought with them a 10 point, a plan which contains some general principles for example, negotiated rather than militarily facilitated solution. but also some concrete proposals. for example, uninhibited rain and fertilizer experts or prisoners change the return of my children uh, back to that homes. do you think any of them are likely to be realized?

well, i have my own theory. i think the most important point is the exchange of places. and return of the children because that has got a bad name on the eyes, the same document on president posted. and i'm of the view is that can be a cheap you might just see as of the approach from the ice, you see, and the list in terms of press the inputs in coming to start thinking, oh, go school break summit. so if we could just see that one being the 1st step to watch this piece initiative. but it also has got some spin offs in terms of allowing plus inputs and coming to uh to, to start off with this issue of children is a very interesting one. and it's also, you know, open to all sorts of many preparations because this person put in a told the african leaders, many of those children who were removed from the formally ukrainian territories

where they are funds. and they weren't removed alongside the legal guardians. they weren't in our some interest. so he says that if any of the relatives are willing to come, you know, and prove, you know, their relationship without the children, russian would eagerly, uh, you know, facilitating the, the joining together. but those are things that the in, um, sort of putting the focus on they are, as you see, we actually if, you know, getting into older as many people let them do the game because you know, they, and these allegation of portfolio removing children is a, i see, in russia to me is this for seems as an absolutely barbarous thing. they couldn't come up with anything else. so they came up with this lovable claim. yeah. but the 2 sides and there's one side due to the fact that around the world, unfortunately. and unfortunately, the russian side of the story we don't get to get it is from the engine speaking world. all we know is that we have acquisitions at the moment that are sending that to the russians, particularly a precedent to invite him and putting up that to those thousands of children,

taking them from the apartments into uh, into russia. so until the other side you got to play to unfortunately you're going to have this one side amplified and you're going to have this one. so i believe, but the rest of the world, unfortunately, as well. the rest of the world for this on fact checking on that, i mean at least as far as, as far as i'm concerned. i think we, we, we actually have to look at the face of those children. and specifically, rather than using them as a political toynbee in this, in this game between the roof and the west end. and now south africa as well. what do you think? i mean, who do you think who's uh, which priority is the, is the highest here and the fate of the children, the safety and security or the compliance with the i see, see what is both. i think you guys just need to not make this in document. you have set up. you cannot do any detailing this discussion. but the fact that you've got a lot under progress issued by

a icpc with whom we ever decides this decade on that tooth. and we are a member of uh, we have to take it serious. uh and, and the son of the guys got no choice in disregard the cost of it. you said from out to get other bags easy. but did this is a wonderful rest of them. one of the tubs that you belong to. and uh, because i remember you up on to buy a roof regulations, and to re up to info as to what to buy to that date in the system, new 10 falls. so this is, this is the situation i agree with you that the natalie due to have been done plate . um it would have been a discussion there by the way, discussion people have a close them pretty don't know, much more bigger issues, particularly ending dual. but because they use a wonderful rest of it in that particular regard, unfortunate you setup you going to have to abide by that. now i assume south africa has to make very and difficult choices. not only with regards to legalities of the i see a court order, but also, you know, maneuver among various parties, a particularly deciding how to go about with western pressure. and earlier this