is mazda is right, some kind of a false flag attack, i think is a, it is certainly a distinct possibility. as is problem. let me pulling the is up to all kinds of missed you if you know the building up forces against the bela rose. this is a building, they've been investing an awful lot in militarization. it's a jacking up. it's a little ex, military expenditures like there's no tomorrow. got any of those what the polls apply. they. so that's another possibility of us. so there's going to be some kind of a, a, a, a, a full, again, full supply, got to compensation between phone and then below rows. so there all kinds of ways as yes it would, you need to could get itself even more directly involved with the budget. you know, in the martin is, i don't know. i suppose the hubris comes from, namely, the nato's hubris is that much in afghanistan. it was biting c partners. okay. in, in, in uh, in la libya, it was uh, it gave overland libby, libby,

and air defenses. and of course, you've already mentioned the bombing of, of serbia. um, every single instance i raised there was very little resistance, at least on a technological way. they couldn't resist. no, they're putting all of their eggs in one basket called ukraine to defeat russia. i mean, what is wrong with these people? i think is a little bit earlier, i think come they back themselves, and so going on. where's the come and get those are easy now and we don't have any process to the end and they've done the democratic process. it's so incredibly arbitrary. and i think that's really the real problem. if you take a look at year of now, i mean it's very, it feels very much like we're in the last days, the roman empire, you know, the rice are going from. so i'm watching macro on the l as in june concept. you know, it shows as a popularity in germany is down to know 30 percent. and i wonder how long this coalition of the 1st year. so you're telling us that even bread and circuses isn't

working anymore, it's not working. i'm, you know, you can is easy to see why we're living now in a barrier of what i cool. i don't have a better expression for it. my uncles are referred to as 0 governance, and it's something i've noticed in the last 20 years is that it's something that we purchased. it was looked down to your pins and rather personalizing me, but if that we've got the same problem. now in person we have 0 governments. you look at math chrome is a product of the banking leads. are in front of us in bricks and russia is the same unless, unless think that there's problems that the, from just having that going to come to that you can pretty soon. but what is what the real problem is, is that they're out there is there's not functionality, nature comp function in the way that it really should function, which is on much more democratic, more mushroom was trying to do is just cancel this trip to this, to show us, but the both trying to end this thing and i remember to you voting system of the us . this is the religious thing to go to stop. i'm hungry with the right side because

everyone's running on a cache. and this is something else i think, and there's that democracy deficit that this keeps going gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're here to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some illness. stay with our to the, the, the i was a absolutely asked me to stop occurring. pete's video receipts piece in crisis. it clearly, i think there is no doubt about people to participate in say soft be always eats without hope. the audio we see being able to play a role with these preventing or at least value monitoring the conflict between russia and ukraine or russian device. the

total is the aggressive today i'm authorized with additional strong sites today. russia was the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that is constantly growing. but i think the pitch of the thing is just click on the leasing and we see more in the way we shift for banning all in portion of russian oil and gas in energy suffering the price for another country. hope all's well. we're going to the strip the phone service involved, the little joe by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there is a boomerang, the the ultimate to prospect where all the things are considered on people. this is the

home editions remind you were discussing some real news the the, let's go back to george budapest. um, you know, you the all 3 of us on a weekly basis. now i've talked about how this has been in the lead the agenda. ukraine has been in the lead agenda. i'm a very, very little if any of the electoral processes had been employed. the governments had fallen. um, but do you know, george, we, you know, i don't want to bring into much american domestic politics here, but donald trump did give a major riley of, i think a new cycle ago. and he had a lindsey graham on the stage. and oh yeah, yeah. and the, the boeing i haven't heard that kind of bullying and, and a major level rally like that in, in a very, very long time. am it, it's, it's,

it's, it's beginning to really show that when you give people an opportunity to express their opinion about this conflict, they'll give it to you and it was a loud booming sound job already did. indeed in this up i get, this was a, in south carolina and lindsey, so ram is south carolina is center to and lindsey graham was trying to throw as many uh, delicacies through the crowd as uh, a lot of really lot of renters, red meat. yeah. the robins had it cuz they read me, you saying, oh, i been with crumbling all along in the an i e and i am, you know, they'll go with the, for the supreme court and they didn't stop. you know, the speech was only about the 2 and a half minutes of the they did not stop bowing even as he walked off the stage that continued bowing him. and what's um, how to think about that because of the review. i be the discuss that the lindsey

graham is really bad, useful trauma because if from ever does get back in to office, lindsey is graham is going to demand some kind of a reward for having supported him as a whole other play. but now graham is going to have difficult, is he getting anything? i mean the, you know, he's really, that meets, i mean, is like, you know, it's, it's very, i'm liking out that, you know, he's going to prevail in any primary in south carolina. so this really has that, i think that's that. so therefore trump doesn't need to worry about that. like a thing, lindsey grant, but going back to a lot this point about the youth they hear was indeed absolutely frustrated to that every time they want to vote for getting more money for um, the ukraine. se, let's make sure that they don't have to pay, you know, we, we don't pay for the welfare payments. no welfare payments for uh, for euro,

but those welfare payments for ukraine. and then every time they tried to do this for bond goes along and it says no, no, we don't agree with this. and it's just driving them crazy. i'm in the, i'm a, i'm really in a bad above just it gives in every day of every meeting, she stopped screaming in rage. but germany's voice is, isn't prevailing. so yes, they want to change it. so have a majority voting, but that's very problematic because it's hard to see how your to move forward on the majority of voting because a lot of countries are going to say, hey, you know what, what's the point of being a member of a job where we're always um, outflow to buy and buy this gang at the top of the if they don't read they, they usually have complete disregard for the electric, which they do, then they're going to have disregard for any of

a minor elite or someone that's in the cloak room. they need, i mean, but in the city of the main table, they're just going to ignore them. that's how this works. ok. i mean, it's not, but they will, they lost their interest in democracy a very, very long time. look, if they had interest in tomorrow because they would have voted about going, having this don't put in the right, but they did, they won't do it more. yeah. um, you know, looking at what, just to be going back to what joe says, i think come, it said the you is running out of money though, and germany is running out of money. now german sponges bank is down to as low as $20000000000.00 and the expos design that's going to be observed in next 2 to 3 years with a to pay for the by deals and europe on deals that it made, which it caused philip. now, to some of the books on and if you look at the use, he's looking for it rec, and some of the train sodium, $50000000000.00 euros to pay for cove. it because it borrows on the international market and that has to pay that. but this takes time, it takes time to those is a humble people, blue color people to actually join up the doors and work out the oh, okay,

so you didn't results us any boat with that money. i mean, want to do the same thing now with your grand it takes time, but i think, you know, if the booming lindsey graham and you can hardly blame them, the amount isn't actually pursuing. one of them filed piece of work. you're being, you're being kind the hosting, but the people to bring him on some stages and that is a really good indication that they are. how does this, the governance, you know, the item is, is the champion on? and um, you know, another thing, it was just think about, you know, when we looked at the potentates i plan on what's gonna happen. there really is whether we're actually gonna ultimately get troops on the ground, which is a possibility. another possibility which i'm seeing now being floated by the cast media machine. i'm not going to call that propaganda machine because people say the tier of but it is, is 6 things. now we things really professional films make know, don't know. i know. like we seems really professional films, might they've got professional production companies to come in and make these

videos about how the f, 16 plans for renewal, again, stomach, but you know, this is just ending in disaster, but i think that we do have timelines. we do have points where people was that people here been elections next year in 2024. and i think that will be a big no vote against this kind of what else? you know? yeah, well i mean with george and i think i think viewers know that george and i have very careful about invoking the, the 2nd world war and nazi germany. and because i think it's so abused and people don't have a good knowledge of that history. however, you know, the m 16 sounds like wonder weapons, the super secret what weapons do in the war against the britain. you know, i mean, that's what it sounds like to me. then if you ask anyone that knows anything about these, this weaponry is that for us is and some other type of miss defense system is far more sophisticated. these weapons are not going to move the needle in one way or another. but if the western audiences, oh yeah, we use, what was i, i think it was,

i'm of the administrative defense and the okay. you know, when the, when those of british tanks show up in your brain, it's going to be over. yeah. it was over, they burned like the rest of them. sure. yes and no question. i mean, i was sort of the all the talk about, well let's move this need. let's give them this. let's give them the high miles or let's give them the depleted uranium. but let's give them a cluster, munitions, so let's give them a f sixteens that get the little liquid things, the bradley fighting vehicle that's going to the abrams. thanks always. let's keep escalating more and more of the way was that the goal isn't so much to move the leader in favor of ukraine. they don't really think ukraine kind of defeats russia. i want to many weapons you sent. the goal is to keep the world going. keep draining, rush, i keep exhausting. rush up among others, the more sinister sagos as such as victoria newland as

a way of actually triggering this will because i think they really do want this will between the nato, russia and the they, the more they get involved, the more you you're sending them all the stakes a raise than the, the less likely it is that you're just going to back away and walk away and say, okay, well that's and we're done. we're going home. it becomes less and less like the more committed you want. it becomes less and less likely that you're ever going to walk away. so i think that's why they keep pushing it. it's not because they think you print them. it can possibly when the war they, if they just want this war to continue to get people not stay a garden, your thoughts go ahead. yeah. i have to agree. i think we have reached that point the best solution now, and i think, you know, i wonder how the historians will write this up in the bucket is you know, this period, it is, or the madness of king george's the madness of joy binder. and in a president who just this week was on television was off by journalist about the circle of the attempt to come in russia. and he is response was yeah,

function is losing the will in the rush of the dates of sure. i mean, how long is the guy go up? you know, and we'll be talking about it 11 to should i is. what if, if the democratic party ever get around to put in the sky in a straight jacket, all of options, we actually end up, you know, going to the pose in long years time. is this guy even going to better remember what he had for breakfast? so i think there's a level of ins, and maybe you can be a completely counter intuitive about and i'll throw at the george here, the democratic party, the established been loved still by him, but he's going to do anything they want him to do. ok. so i don't think this is biden's board, this is victoria new ones or jake sullivan. tony blinking this, this is what they want. it, they have a long history of this are all rushing gators. okay. i mean, look, get a job. i mean, what is 80 years old? i mean, you know, it was only 5 minutes ago he was against gay marriage. and now he's a transgender example to himself. i mean,

come on with. no. how could it's all to be taken seriously? sorry. go ahead. george. yes, exactly, he's not an easy 80. he's a bad 80. i mean, he's a very bad and he really doesn't address is a, you know, they, they were leaking the, uh, the administration saying, well what we're going to do with your brain, we're going to promise you praying. the billing is the ukraine doesn't have to go through all the steps in the membership, you know, they can just to escape all the membership action plan and all the rest of it. i know that that's going to be our deal of vilnius and then they are buying the brand has to go through the steps. he will, this is no idea what's going on. nobody does. he didn't even understand the big issues. um and yeah, as this was obviously being driven by is, is that a blinking a new loan, sullivan, all the rush or gauges, orval rep, obsessively, a whole post of russia always have been throw out the careers and they,

they all this will going and that's really the problem that is that the political establish when one binding because he doesn't offer any kind of a resistance to me. why didn't believe they like from the trunk of a some resistance. i mean, not very effectively and not consistently, but he said you were to ask questions like, what the hell are we doing in syria? and when are we gonna wrap it up and enough gonna stop by and they were all such questions. i mean, they always happy, you know, yeah, keep going. do, do whatever you need to do. i'm off for another long weekend in delaware. i get spam, i have a 30 seconds bar and go ahead, finish it off. so what is it going to end? you know what i mean? what, what are we gonna be talking about next weekend? uh, i think um, but the problem, the situation is incredibly worried and i think uh, a number of, uh, what's the latest and bite and will be behind some sort of of scale. and they say, well, and you kind of gets russia, but um,

so interesting what they attempted to and the whole story, the way the media portray its the circle attempt. it could russia that what was actually seen is a model inch touch by a wagner group. and fusion, conversely, looking full of sobriety and come unknown escalation. and i think this is coming up more and more in a so in one way, i am slightly positive to see that there is much more raquel symptoms, comments on social media and media. generally, people are starting to wake up. people are starting to yeah. alright. government ran out of time what a thing my guess in budapest and in america. so the one thing would be worse for watching us here at ortiz, the next time. remember across that goes the

hang on i guess i'll just be the closings because i've spoken of shouldn't this but think you'd be willing to go onto facebook and catch up to see it was this will be the most areas close. i use this key members to really it was easy me and they did it through it when williams saying, if they have come, you love, it even goes faster than that. oh, my gosh as each other, because i need for someone to be an issue that escalating somebody took the 1st test, one is correct. is that correct? because kamisky, what we'll do is we'll do this with a, some changes that go to pretty good to do. so instead of with the blue, i'm going to choose choose pick them so, so you can on the

mobile is this the best of both known issue, but for the mobile, when you go annual g d, p per capita, it was about 4000 euros color and a mobile cuz i merely watched here the sleep of man, i got near planet, across the ceiling from where this really inches photo me. so just letting them allow me to come out, please make your lives or stop there. just single thought of unemployment is off the charts. most of us territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect the country which enjoys financial support from the u. s. m. d u is constantly ross by political and corruption scandals. but all the students don't know the training.

you can to, the state is in 2022. the welcome to was a part of the conflicts and ukraine has manifested a security of power adults in europe may in the west contend until russia is fully democratic. whatever that means, you claim really washington security guarantees and as fast as military supports for as far as most sol believes that until global governance is truly multiple or

whatever. that means an extension of foreign military infrastructure towards the russian borders will be considered. and that's essential to secure just ref. candice to contentions be reconciled without another continental war in europe spoke to discuss it and now joined by thomas bremond, your director of the using us center for security policy on former secretary general of the organization for security and cooperation in europe is great to see you great, you talk to and i have to express a double gratitude for being here in law school, because uh, to be honest with you, we don't see many western visitors here these days. did you have any 2nd thoughts about coming here? because of, you know, reputational risks to yourself personally in the organization that you're heading them or advisors. uh that to indeed uh, and on board me about traveling to miles kyle, at this time. but you know,

i always leave a dialogue and dialogue, i think is particularly important in times of crisis. and so is not coming to mosque. i was basically a for the knob, an issue after i got the invitation to these procedures, separate book of readings. and i don't regret to have called them i think i've had the excellent discussions between the citing off the conference. but also of course the taking advantage to talk to quite the number of important for percent of this, both the dean and without the outside of the space structures that you've been talking about. and the fact that this conflict may have uh, only of regional but also global implications. and i think we are increasingly seeing the police when, as far as sanctions are concerned. but um, i wonder as a, as a former had of the, or see,

what do you make of the fact that this potentially very dangerous situation is being dealt with by the policy of boy cards and ostracizing, russia, which i think is prefer, of course of action for many european countries as well as for the united states, they look at the on the one hand i have for understanding for and as already determined as you chose to buy invest in countries regarding this a very severe breach. i think the last law that are that the russian military invasion in ukraine's re presents about the same time, i think it is, but they clean at these times, it's important to remain on speaking terms uh, to uh, to discuss the end if it's uh, at least to prevent further escalation,

but also if you want to come out of the current situation, we need a platform for, for dialogue. so, um, uh, you know, by the, i mean saver off, you know, very a 2 year term, a language at the same time, i don't believe that isolating, excluding any important interlocutor serves the purpose of managing come, take and off, taking us closer to resolve a conflict you might so the need for platforms for dialogue and they always see the organization for security and cooperation in europe, which you used to have a few years back was once considered such and such a platform. and uh, i interviewed you a couple of years back when you just assumed that leadership position. and at that time they were already doubts whether the always see was relevant. do you think it's still a valid them, given that not only failed to prove ext,

an active kinetic conflict between russia and ukraine and some would argue russian the west. but it also now being used as, as a platform for political culturing and pushing out one of the sides. i'm speaking about russia. do you think the or c currently stands for either security or cooperation? i would absolutely estimates that the currently at the always see is in crisis it clearly, i think there is no doubt about it, which is not to say, you know, that the always see what the status don't a very valid birth beats or it's feed nations and the basketball comes in in central asia or in parts of east europe, beach stories institutions. so it's the, the park commodity for a coffee to continue it. and, but of course, this is politically and nots at it, but the key relevant, the, i think was participating stays off the always the well,

that hope is at the always see being able to play a role in either preventing or at least not in managing the conflict between russia and ukraine, or the russian database. by the way, how did you see it given that you are now in the, i guess the less the diplomatic position that you perhaps most freedom have you perhaps cannot for yourself more freedom of speech. do you see that as a conflict between russia and ukraine or something larger? i think it's an overlapping. come take then in this is by the way, you don't know, web based balls. i think something that the, the, the saw, you know, for us, these 2 lines of come take the, the moon arrow between a russia and ukraine and the wide, or between russia and the best. but i would meet at the, at that the both accommodates,

could have been managed in and on by then they and, and i regret, you know, with doc, the niece many opportunities to, to do so. and including osteo, we see, you know, and, and that the always see the hoc platforms, the to the, they both the lines of conflict and the ups important stakeholders, important. but they said that the site itself, the always the, it's always not to use that these tools all the a partly at home. do you mean by those important stakeholders? they look at it, let's take the example off on the control, these being beat nice thing for us. and this bothers ation as licensed as trust them. own key stakeholders of you being security and then on probably off a very complex bit off arms control agreements that you know,

have been built off the since the end of the cold war and surfaced uh, firefighters provide to those to be the day of the peace and disability solving it'd be the best that unraveling office architecture car. wonder if i'm interested in here just for a 2nd because you're trying to be very useful in diploma. i cannot understand why, but are we doing the piece um the, the conflicting efforts service when we are trying to sort of smooth the lines. uh, uh, so diplomatically here because it's not just the, the random unraveling, isn't it? it's the west taking a decision, making a decision that they, they want to pursue certain policies that when strongly against russian interest and those of russian interests and concerns were very clearly communicated for main menu number of years. i'll be doing the i'll, if you ever didn't choose the service when we just describe it as single unraveling

. it's a, you know, i would uh agree with 0 with that it was uh, uh, with some of these uh, pin or a saw of this uh, honest control like architecture 8 was indeed the united states that pulls out of it. uh, but what i was uh trying and to say you stopped at the always c v. a tried to provides you know, alternative path firms. for instance, if i listen to your 10 that was sir. and for the structure dialog crate, the by a decision also means the council has the humble end of 2016. and i think before of eyes that was, you know, how to adopt this platform would serve to discuss military risk adoption confidence and security security measures. and perhaps also great. again,

a comment on the standing on how to, uh, uh, resume a series on the control conditions and negotiations. but unfortunately, uh, this also was not taken off and it's true. and the rest nato does not seem to be particularly interesting about a, frankly, also from the russian federation. i did not really a sense at this urgency, you know, to kind of get back and, and try to reinvigorate this arms control architecture. so that was, i think at the lack of interest a, by all the relevant stakeholders and, and diesel so frustrated the look at the same is true for the other example that, that wanted to address. and that is a.