as sort of the, whether the negotiating process holds any prospect whatsoever at this point. because russia took a very dramatic step for itself. i think many russians ashok by the actions of the russian government they and it only came with a time i see when the decision makers would come to a point or to a conclusion when they would not believe in the negotiating process. and i think there is a strong sense and must go that piece process. the conflicting efforts have been methodically abused at all the negotiations. i used simply as a measure of getting some respite for military action and never, i never committed to with, you know, a will to implement that. is there any, a legitimacy to, to that kind of a thing is that i would agree that you know the fights are and i, and i use the plural, essentially, and not the people, not they play and the sides very big. there were

certain time periods, but they never are never overlapping. then i said as that was a genuine commitment to move forward with implementing ad there means agreements, for instance, a few months after president. so let's get the power. i really have the feeling that, that, that, that was a genuine commitment about then, you know, at the window also, but you, we need the cost. and, and, you know, when i last of my mandate that sector to chat with. and i kind of, you know, felt dr. be a meets of something very protracted. and i didn't see the out, which in my, you doesn't testify a war box. i have st. passivate the frustration. but again, i would put the blame on both sides for at this lock of a general idea to implement the means to reading the stairwell. mr. government over

to give her some break right now. but she will be back in just a few moments state and the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen for you. fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground can a small the best of both known issue but for the mobile, when he was an annual g d p per capita,

it was about 4000 euros scholarly and a mobile watch here the sleep of man i've got on the planet across the seal, from where this really into total source, just letting them, although i'm not please nature little spot. the, the single, the thought of unemployment is off the chance. most of us territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect the country which enjoys financial support from the us and is constantly ross by political and corruption scandals. but all the didn't scope multiple obtaining candidate status in 2022. the agent was made it clear. indeed, it's a queen, proxy war against russia as ex,

essential, as such, russia to seize the conflict as ex, essential, it could not be otherwise, there will be no, it goes straight. at the end of this conflict, one side will lose. the smart money is not on buying for nations of the best and was a far as best as almost grandeur director of the geneva center for security policy on former secretary general of the organization for security and cooperation in europe. uh, missing from your uh, in 2025 the how soon as you add the, the founding document. uh for the or c will mark is 50th anniversary and it has some beautiful principals there that actually helped us put an end to the cold war. and i think one that i asked was signed, there was

a clear recognition that differences exist and that they have to be dealt with. and yet when we look at europe right now, they're supposed to be so much stress on you need to you. there's barely annual for even the negotiation, not only between russia and europe, or russia and the west, but even within the west. why do you think 50 years after the creation of the, or c, which is supposedly dedicated to freedom of speech, to you know, dialogue as contentious as it may be? why do you think there is such a fervor such a demand on uniform agreement within the western attempt? i think to meet the half again. uh, come back to uh, uh, an era off. there are a tough tale, political, a computation, and unfortunate the, you know, the print, the principal, the fact you refer to with, that's where i agreed in,

in the framework of the helsinki final accord in 1975 and the, and, and then resubmit that by, by states again in 19191999 at into in, in 2010 in a you know, so no, unfortunately it by no but the questions these principles i think that has at least late to not be necessary. so time to the database delay must be be these principles. and disney labor day is i add these bases, he buys the land mustang needs to be addressed and they stand that not addressed it . they, uh, it leads to poly tensions and, and, and, and, and com site. and let me illustrate that point, you know, diaries regarding all those states that the are jail,

aka for the jell correct graphic. they'd be the, the russian federation and nato. and it varies and you see what it would have to it in your introductory comments. and there is an issue uh, it'd beat star state the slides because you have the database or do you need your security uh like elizabeth specific with their secure it just it is because russian never precluded down from developing that democracy, the markets, whatever they won the issue was always as the name of the organization stresses on security. yeah. correct. correct. so that raised about to principles and backed by the charter east, down all the dr. steeple them. optically there is a prince that both off indivisibility of security. that is, you asked to stay short and increase your security at the expense of an offer, and there isn't all the principals and that allows us the state to freely choose your security arrangements. now if you apply these 2 principles to state slack,

georgia, ukraine, media as a badge umbrella, russo, i'm all of the above you half of the dilemma. and you can as a tried to solve this dilemma by force and, but that's probably not as advisable. uh, i think the dar diplomatic needs to debate this issue. and if i thought properly then lead to, to where and all as an agreement on the status of these countries that is close to non alignment neutrality. something like that combines re security guarantees combined obsolete arms control agreements. you know, that would prevent, for instance, nato in establishing natal infrastructure at the or ukrainian or russian border using that's to uh, a reality specifically on the principle of individuals ability of security. because i heard you saying the more i can get some panel that you would laugh. uh,

the country is the member space by 2025. not only the commit to the old principles, but to try to re define them in the, in a new way. that would be workable for all. do you think that's still a possibility? i think not by 2025 at bought. you know, if you think complex prevention long term into your atlantic and duration area, i don't see any all the way then to a deeded beat that the line must be the dispenses. i don't think you the global conflicts can be one way of dealing with it. don't absolutely, and i think if you want that, i will need either. and i think at some point the need to a come back to the negotiation table and then basically going back trying to reconstruct your b security order. you know that, that allows us to reconnect with these principles boxed by you opened the addressing. and these, um,

do you see that mouse and i think at the doctor's edition, it's not gonna happen tomorrow about the my talking. they stories politically implies ideas. well, a for that to have happened besides, also need to come to a 2nd calculus. that piece is more beneficial for, for that goals then more. and i think on the russian side, it's pretty, it's easier to defined where the russians can draw their line because they said that they've been very open about it. but what about the west? when do you think the western powers will calculate that? a piece is, is batter for that long term security goals, then war for them, the proxy conflict. look, i don't have a great football x it, but i would agree with 0 with that that well, the socks archman calls the mutual you heard things stay made, which makes the columns they tried for resolution is not reached yet. and i think

both sides state and seem to be at least stopped by military means they can reach a much more advantageous uh, negotiation pulsation. i wouldn't exclude that at some point. you know, they're at ration exhaustion, sightseeing and, and, you know, that resource option of negotiations i bought for the time being, uh, i bought my, uh, the most realistic scenario that i see for months to companies. unfortunately, continuation of a high density complex. now uh, in previous conflicts uh, in which european powers took part, i mean in various conflicts of the century. and the cost to the european population was either minimal or non. this time around is different than the economic advantage corporation that has long served as the as the pillar. also, i have both the village and culture of prevention and your has been summary. how

big of a challenge is it for european countries as far as you're concerned? and do you think that will lead to any sort of reassessment in, in values or political commitment it's in, in euro i would absolutely agree that the costs are half being enrollments in, in your, in a time terms in economic terms, in political terms. uh, you know, the issue with the us, a current agent moving in some sort of a cold war spot, i think in the short term uh, you know, energy shortages, etc. i think that being, that would be the people people saw for about my perception, you know, off facts. it's a political situation in your, being congress is cleaning it all with that. and this is all,

these are the, the ukraine is thoughts that, you know, did, did to these sufferings, are taken into account them. and, uh, and so it's neat or, you know, the rest of the chief flows and north energy shortages. the pathway to change at these to in the medium term, the perception of, you know, the, your, be in the audience. i remember that in the audience, the golden years, there was a lot of tension between political rights and economic cries and more developed more prosperous countries were sort of in the habit of a preaching down to uh, less prosperous the in our view. also retiring neighbors and sort of prioritizing political rights over the economic necessity, given that to europe. for the 1st time i this century has to deal with the past to

actually struggle with fulfillment, though phenomena cries for it for its own citizens. do you think it may change the dis, course at least in general and the realization how, how important is the economy versus politics? i hope it be the lead us again to recognize how important a comprehensive approach to securities and basically the political russian, all of the csc, as you always see, was always uh, combining uh, political military, uh, issues military uh, s as hard security issue long and economic and in my mental affairs, the 2nd thing i mentioned and the human dimension, meaning a respect for human rights for will of locks and democratic institutions. and i agree to deal with that has been the history of the always see is a history of play. one i mentioned against the other beginning at the same time the

organization has always been proud for it's comprehensive, i probably should say here at the and the as the security channel, i have always reminded participating states at the end, you know, so security, it consists of these different dimensions, and you should also be respectful of different i've mentioned that also respect all the states, you know, that may perceive economic and environmental a fast would be a more, more relevant, like the central agency all day. so we're saying that we have to be respectful of diversity, which don't you think has become a rather controversial proposition because these, the diversity of views, political, economic, humanitarian views, should be respected. i i agree with you, but this is a unfortunately, this is a feature of the extremely polarized political environment that to be a recurring team. it's a, it's

a teacher and also cold war. for those of us that half of these through coldwell was on the cold war and correct me if i'm wrong because i was born in the final years of the cold war. but i remember that at that time difference was actually respected because it was dangerous. there was a realization that was fear, that if you don't respect the, your partner enough, you know, they, the wolf can blow up into pieces. do seeing that here a best response for, for the out. i mean, is there, i think there is the, at these, the, among the major powers, the various states that a certain respect, you know, for it. here, as for instance, for the concept of mutually assured destruction, i think that hasn't been seriously on the mind or, and, and fortunately and above, you know, what was the typical feature of the cold war was basically these uh, images of the n b. and i don't want to, yeah, i'm right,

you're wrong by definition. and i think i see that happen again and on both sides. you know, i'm, i'm, i wonder between the rules and i'm struck at by that and that. so both sides of invest, a locked in narratives that are then being sold market that asked deep sold drugs. well, at that time, back in the seventy's, the 2 sides were wise enough to come up with the new forum and you east west for them to try to discuss those differences. let's keep our fingers crossed, the the that is still possible in this day and age. in any case, i really appreciate your bravery and your time during this interview. thank you. thank you so much for your interest. and thank you for watching hope to hear again and wells, and part of the

the the

of the things that would employees have with them would we get to the side of celia? was this because it did just wouldn't care to get through the new year. oh for g, i teach that way. no, for me teaching typical scholars should. thoughtful and you have to do this. i'm going to west valley forward. you with that the pressure is more, it's a washing machine. and when you move let's move. i'm on the stairs and pushed mostly mostly putting them on the move menu with the continuum interest i get, i just want to say the lowest quality, i'm all of the dates from and then i'll study to the progressive rock and you see the shortest finish. this is just all just for good news. i'm a fraction of when you come spring to do friday is the material ordering some of our people from the for sure. enter them in the denver. so in addition to some

of this, the hello and welcome to cross ok, we're all things are considered non peter lavelle. nato is made it clear in themes it's ukraine, proxy war against russia as ex, essential, as such, russia to cease the conflict as ex, essential, it could not be otherwise, there will be no negotiated end to this conflict. one side will lose the smart money is not on binding coordinate, the

processing nato state. i'm joined by my guess, lucas gauge in, excuse the marine veteran author into law ser, in salt lake city. we have david pine. he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security. and in geneva we crossed to the town. he is a swift journalist, writer, and politician, alright. prospect girls and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, let's go to break 1st. lucas, there's a lot of things in play. there's a lot of moving pieces here. and the last new cycle, zalinski still determined to retake cry me a. we have the building this summit with the nato gathering in about 10 days time. and we have this prospect of a false flag being mentioned intentionally into the media is a lot of scare mongering involved here co. and one more thing the counter offensive in ukraine is not going is, is scheduled no surprise there. what's the lay of the land, my friend,

what do you see here and go ahead as well. i see that the russians are still doing what they are doing tactically, taking their time. they're not trying to put themselves in their meat grinder and ukraine is doing the exact opposite. they're being pressured by nato and washington to go in full force. and as you mentioned, it's not working out that well, but they have to sell the story that extra going well and people aren't really buying it. i see more and more people questioning the narrative. and, you know, ukraine has been getting very desperate doing acts of terrorism stretching back since the beginning of the war from the bombing of the bridge ascending barrier to dina. now that the dam being flooded, i mean all these things, it's not a sign of someone winning the war. so russians are doing the great that they're doing very well on the battlefield there. i've heard people say 7 to one killed death ratios with the ukrainians are losing 7 people, one russian. so it's not looking good for them. and i think that the russians will went out this war. i just, how many people before the negotiations? how many lives are lost before they sit down and actually talk peace?

that's really the question. i absolutely agree. and i, an on the back of that, i would suggest that everyone go to some stack and read john mearsheimer as late as missive, which is a, basically a reflection of lucas as lots and mine. let me go to d. n a in geneva. we keep hearing about these different scenarios about negotiations that the ukrainians couldn't we conquer a certain amount of land, cutting off the land bridge to you can try me. they'll have a better spot at the negotiating table. but there's, there's something wrong with that assumption. what, why would russia even sit down and negotiate and table at this point? go ahead in geneva. yes, i don't think that the russia is, is now right default on the goose chase on that because for sure we have to step that's. it's exactly the existence of the site because if they go now on the goose chase from the wall anywhere we continue because of the claim has read the accept

ups or they go, she shows it, as i said, the reading to uh, to do do to may call on to don't really work on crap. nothing to be done. investment crimea. so to rush out, it's not the time to negotiate. they can negotiate only if the recording is right next to the member of may 2, which is not the case. no. and no peaceful where to go to you. as long as i'm here we can spend see the try shop is of the types fall there at the gym and do well. well that's, that's exactly the point. i'm glad you mentioned that because david, this is, you know, it's, it's not one ukraine, one. so i mean, we can listen to what's a wednesday. the is a panhandler. he just wants money and he wants prestige that he wants a wants to pump up his ego. fine. are plenty and people in the west the want to do that. but david,

it's not what ukraine wants. it's what washington wants. okay. and what washington wants as a strategic defeat of russia. well, russia is not going to go along with that. and you know what in between time and in the middle is ukraine being grinded into dust? david? yeah, so true. um, you know, the, the dirty secret i guess, or the secret that the western media refuses to admit as a, you know, of course, russian beta ukraine do. so after being provoked by, of buying the nato. but putting that piece terms on the table since day to the war, i've been covering that in the national interest and my real wars of stack websites and most recently of september uh, following the next agent as of for you probably know lost by the russian federation of the russia essentially stated that it achieved all of its nearly all of its objectives. and the remaining objectives can be obtained through

a piece that goes with the under the share of the steel and that offers the table since september. so russia is really been the site has been trying to end the war, and the world would have ended it for us. it had his way back in march, march. 31st of course has went out to the peace deal was signed between uh, russian ukraine which is great. and then ended up completely ranking on after it was pushed to do so by the, by the ministration. and then probably minister of the you k, uh, worst johnson. so that would save the lives of perhaps $450000.00 or more e radians. also, soldiers incidentally is, and i do agree with you with lucas, that you know, the pre encounter fencing has been going very badly with ukraine suffering the 71 casualties and treaty one overall more than a respiratory or so this laurie is going to end, we're going to do

a huge peace settlement, the sooner we do it, the better russia, you know, the key i think is to uh, conclude a free and style pharmacy disagreement in the work. is that correct? when control? yeah, well you know, i come across as i'm going to look into your come across this, the korean analogy is that the problem with using it in this case here is that the major powers all agreed to the, to the pharmacist in, in, on the korean peninsula. i don't see, i don't see any reason world in the world by russia has to compromise on anything. we had the minutes process. okay. we already know what the negotiating position of the west is, is to lie. lucas, and that's correct. domestic things were violated. so the russians have no reason to trust the west at all. they have to win completely in this more and unfortunately that's gonna take more lights on the creating. and so, i mean, of course the russians are losing as well, but not as many people as the ukrainian side. and it's just a tragedy to see this and fold because it is the west pushing the ukrainians into

that me credit. they don't care about your grand. i've said it since i've comments in the beginning, this war along the guy said they're just using his cannon fodder cause they want to week and russia with sanctions and this war and everything, it's backfire. and peter, nothing has worked at his strength and brushes economy to strengthen their alliance with china and other countries, and to show the world that the western hedge and monique is collapsing, nobody trust america anymore. nobody trusts nato people. question, why didn't even have nato at this point? it's only causing problems and you know, people are saying that the premiums wanna join. they don't, they don't even have to join at this point because it's already that the west is acting as if they're already part of nato. so there are hardy putting troops in the ground mercenaries from several countries, not just ukraine fighting russia. it's every one fighting russia yet again, i'm so glad. lucas brought that up because defacto ukraine is already a member of nato. but without the article 5 guaranteed, i mean the washington must be popping champagne bottles every day. so the paintings are willing to die, but we don't have to protect them. this is amazing. and the arms about producers,

they're making tons of money. i mean, this is the, the best possible outcome because in the us, there's no obligation. other than to watch, you know, they usually ukraine grind itself into, into ashes. it's remarkable that they've been able to get an elite and ukraine to go along with this. maybe even more remarkable, gentleman is that you're, a goes, is being led by the nose by washington. by a guy that is comatose in the white house. go ahead and geneva. yeah. yeah. you're the part of the stuff. nobody cares about to credit him because i'm every against don't care about and credit and they to doesn't get to and even when. yeah, because on that doesn't care about is on citizen because those events keys are ready to fight going to the last queen and so yeah, so nobody can spend duration. they have no reason to care about and credit. yes. you do. ready to fight against the last or go to recall the crime. yeah. and done

by us, which rush out there's a reset or that the that the homepage that for good reasons. because the release of the russian speaking people of the boss and also crime the form it was invited to 1014 but to the russian speaking people. and any question from the bus really affected by the or inquiring and go down that down there where the 14000 people refuse in their last year. so the frontier wash of the have to but that, that's also the reason why the russian, they've got the new quiz because to protect the ethnic and russia speaking people the best. don't forget it. and know yes, later, later we probably need to do is just uh, the next the during the next summit there we'd probably get a give.