the the russian states never is as tight as one of the most sense community best in most all sense and up the must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on the russians cruising and split the r t smooth neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube. the question, did you say even closer to the

hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered on peter level nato . it's a peculiar organization. it claims to be defensive military lines, but at the same time, claims it must constantly expand. add to this, the alliance is quite projects, stability, in reality, it projects instability and in security and made russia, its primary enemy, the processing, the upcoming nato summit. i'm joined by my guess, nichol,

i petro in kingston. he is a professor, a political science at the university of rhode island in portland, we haven't been rip, he is a freelance journalist and in london we cross over the income my 10 day. he is a visiting lecturer at the law school of the university of westminster are a gentleman. crosstalk roles and the fact that means you can jump any time you want . and i always appreciate nichol. i let me go to you 1st. you know, there's been a lot of, uh, there was a lot of talk about the ukraine, so got counter offensive. and now there's a whole lot of talk about the upcoming summit and build this of the nato summit, of course. and, but it's quite peculiar. and yet, and i'm going to use that word. there seems to be a lot of double talk and ex, explaining what's going to happen there when nothing really much is going to happen . they're, they're going to throw a few bones the uh to the ukrainians and other than that. and there's no membership in the cards, maybe, and no membership ever in the future. what are your thoughts as somebody to is approaching right. i think the game is lowering

expectations for ukraine. i think i'm a senior polish official and just said not to expect too much. but on the other hand, sometimes it turns out the united states manages through the whole coersion and other on so on. pressure is to pull a rabbit out of the had at the last minute. this has happened before when it's been able to sell its own objectives in a way that seems appealing to others and then uh, hide from them of their, their long term implications. so i'm, i'm still very wary about what this upcoming nato summit might lead to. well, they didn't let me go to you in london. i think nikolai, as usual, is spot on here and i'm, but what's interesting is i the rabbits. it'd be cool. it could be pulled out of

a hat, wouldn't be really about your cream. it would be about russia, and this is what this is all about. go ahead and wanted. yes, that's absolutely correct. so then i agree with the last a comment that so that then you can call really expect more than the, the usual they will just simply be giving them a more promise of loans and have your nation while in the meeting. so i'm the ukrainian societies being the, you know, it's being disruptive and it's, it's, it's disruptive. it's a disruptive, a saying, as i think there's no question of the ukraine become being a member, because they simply do don't fulfill any of the criteria for the sole whole map. so as you said, be terry, it is about so old about russia even at the expense. so the absolutes obliteration of ukraine as a nation states and the, the, you know,

the actual degradation of, um, uh, european society and, and, and european security too, because that's not being addressed here. and we've actually create more in security because you will have a revision is so ukraine, i haven't, i mean, there's not a whole lot of logic involved in this here. those that want to push to give exceptions to ukraine to get into the alliance. well then there is a pay in europe and more, i mean, who in their right mind wants that go ahead and portland i think that everybody kind of has to play a game, or they all want to pretend that they wanted just for oral purposes, but no i don't think anyone actually particularly wants to start a war in europe. i mean if they wanted to do that, they've had ample opportunity and they haven't done it. so i could see. ready would maybe even sending in some volunteers or something like that,

but i don't think it's going to be any ukraine's definitely not going to join nato . no bid. and they've made that quite clear. okay, well let's go back to nikolai and in kingston. and then what is the long term implications here? because, you know, it is a nato consent talk all it wants about the future membership of ukraine. but that's the red line for russia. and that's why we have this conflict. and so, you know, it's almost kind of an echo chamber and it may tell land, okay, because the no matter what comes out to build is the russians and already made their position clear. and they're not going to budge from at least there's no evidence of it go ahead. nikolai, the whole lies, not in the current leadership, political leadership in nato countries, but in their successors. there are interesting movements of support, particularly in germany, with the rise of alternative parties to prominence that are very much

skeptical nato expansion. and the phrase is already been the use of forever wars that aren't going to be a burden specifically to german tax payers. and i think as germany goes, way if, if the conservative right wing in germany does come to power and sticks too. it's a skeptical agenda of on, on german foreign policy and 6 to reverse that. then i think we will show more courage along the same lines displayed in france and italy, which is basically their right wing parties have, have caved to the nato agenda. correct? yeah, well you, i'm sorry, i'm going to have to throw your own words back at you. i mean that you as a lot of coercive power, i don't think it will allow that to happen. i think maybe i think with nato land

has to worry about is colored revolutions instigated by washington. if they don't stay in line, me guys go back to our guest in, in london it's, it's very interesting the term forever war has already been brought up here. and that is, i think, really what's at play here. the mounted states doesn't want ukraine in nato, and of course it doesn't, because then it would take on obligations. but the, the status quote works for washington, just fine. they have no legal obligation, so security obligation, so to protect you, crane. but a good it'll, it'll probably russia on the behalf of many of natal. i mean it's a perfect scenario for washington. go ahead in london. yes, it's a, it's a terrible situation and i sealed it. so obviously rusher is holding fast to weeks . it's always is. and they can only get more line since the previous piece over the years have been um, throwing out the window uh, best of letting me improvements in the obviously, um, show the records of the signed agreements. and so if russia wake

sent out and i think the ukraine is on, it's the dog which is being systematically tried to be destroyed. and america is just going to find a way of abandoning you. great. it's done that before to the south, vietnamese, the stomach to the codes and the guns. and that is also the unfortunate so afraid that's a remains for, for ukraine. yeah, but as i, i agree with our previous guess of the logic here, but this complex has been turned into an ex, essential conflict. okay. the u. s. last in afghanistan. last and the rack last of in libya, it'd be good and it had no real collateral damage. this is a very different thing. this is to do or yeah, i mean stilton berg. i've given it extending his term here. it is, it said recently in the last week or so, but this is all about china now. okay. i mean, this is ex, essential,

it's not just a proxy war halfway around the world in, in developing country. go ahead in portland. well, and in this case, i mean, they've had this in planning for so long, you know, the, the provocation is against ukraine. go back all the way to the 1940s. it was wednesday. i believe it was the british you 1st made contact with the o. u n in 1944 and they've supported the members sense. so i think this one's kind of a, a bigger deal for them was 88 of waste like libya, syria, you can just kind of you know, throw some things out there. and if it doesn't work out, she just leave put ukraine. they've been so invested for so long, but i think it's hard for them to to pull out at this weight. well, i agree here nikolai, i mean, it's all about the rules based order. it's about

a european values. it's about barrels garden. i mean, they've invested a lot in this. okay. and, and it was a craven choice. i mean the ukraine has nothing to do with european security, certainly that american security, they have chosen to do this nikolai and that. but so let me say 1st, 1st of all, that every war that america america seeks to fight and sales to its public is an existential war. as gattis, dad was a war also for all the same values. and i don't think, although we're trying very hard, we haven't quite reached the level of commitment, the resources that we, we spent, and they've got us down over more than 20 years. so these things, these, these uh bouts of uh, of imperialism which is a recurring thing. in american foreign policy, continue and,

and will recur. but uh, at the end of the tunnel, i see the promise of realism, realism being simply a recognition of the facts on the ground and columbia. to clarify, if i can interrupt you, do you think victorian do you think victoria no one thinks that way. and i think victoria newland is not a permanent component of the foreign policy establishment. everyone's time is off at some point. and this particular bout with imperial expansion will have a lot of, i think a long, i don't, i hope lasting a recuperation. there will be sort of the hang over effect from this. i hope will

be more dramatic then it has been for it again. well, nickel, i'm going to talk about that in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming nato summit. stage mccarty, the i lindsey this city where the temperature is 3 degree higher already from the neighboring down woods. you know, right? because i think townships haven't chucked the trees, but in tucker in the name of development, and he's all of the ship to become a capital like a single we are all going to your organization just covering all degrees with the

phone. so when you distract nature, it takes every range of the in $1884.00, the german empire began its colonial invasion internet media. from the very start, burling encourage the white calling is to settle in south west africa and take away the best land from the local drive. the germans were actively draining natural resources and using the local population as a cheap labor source. this was causing major protest and lead to rebuild your in 19 o 4 here arrow. and now my drive is rebuild against german colonial rule. kaiser

wilhelm the 2nd was fully determined and ordered to suppress the rebellion with the up most severe a date against the inhabitants of nam may be germany through its 15000 well equipped army all around the country. concentration camps were built in humane medical experiments over citizens were conducted within the period of 4 years. the german, skilled up to 60000 people, among which they were 80 percent of the here railroad tribes and 50 percent of the number dr. the events in south west africa are called the 1st genocide of the 20th century, and not without reason are compared to the holocaust just 2 decades later after the massacre in nam may be hitler's the solve unit put on the same brown colonial uniform which puts the world into the chasm of the 2nd world war, the

the welcome act across ok, we're all things are considered. i'm peter in the mail to remind you we're discussing the upcoming nato summit. the okay, let's go back to our guests in a, in one in a day in k, the, i'm sure you came across the article by john mearsheimer um, titled the darkness ahead where the ukraine war is heading. and it's a fascinating piece of writing and, and, and, and it's a big picture which everybody really wants to understand. and he, his conclusions when i a widely a respect to his work. but then he,

there's one element here that i think could, we could have almost like an endless discussion about and is conclusion that this could end up in some kind of frozen conflict, which i find that could really kind of fascinating. people mentioned the, the co korean poet peninsula, as an example i, it doesn't work for me because all of the major powers bought into a frozen complex roughly is not going to do that. your thoughts go ahead and london . and yeah, i think uh for sure that this is the only, so that's a name. so has all of the company was when this be considered a strategic to feed for nato. nato has a really big ego. i mean, when it comes to russia, oh, they have a superior already complex here. can they compromise it? this is something that nichol i was trying to bring up. keep going in london. well, that big, big, big, big pad in a sense, and they will try and sell it because of victory. i mean, we haven't had much about syria, which was an example of, of, of frozen conflicts. but the us is still occupying

a pods of syria and it's imposing a terrible sanctions on it. so i would tend to agree with the, the point of view, let's um, russia will not find a frozen conflict. the acceptable that in goals and elements of, of the agreements and russia and has looked through be to experience. so one broken promise to another, you know, going back to the problem so not, not one mortgage east was when they drove up to the recent uh, mexico. busy the it'd be, uh, uh, frustrating to the agreements we visit. so let's be a government last year so that fortunately, i don't see it as being the goal shades of the set. i don't see certain members of bait, so even want to not be side is fine with that. you know, unfortunately the present leadership in, in, in poland and apparently english sofa roman was the mob skis for sure.

that's that they just come from and should not to hate russia more than the low voltage. and so i think russia is going to talk 3 times as see, that's terms on the go straight to which some sort of remnants of the of are you trading in a really well robins in the box also is the evidence. i mean, it's already been and the minutes cuz uh process which was a fraud on the western side. the major players have admitted it. so. okay. um, so i mean, if we're gonna talk about some kind of pros and conflict, i mean that's nonsensical because then they'll just take that time to build up capacity and start the war over again. i mean, i don't, i didn't understand the logic. i wish i could talk to mirror so i'm really like, don't understand that part of it space is go ahead and, and yeah, i mean, and which means it was, they didn't even try there. there wasn't ever really any real desire to implement

that. the ridiculous thing is, if you look back at it, how willing russia has actually been to make a deal on all this had they have made the deal that the order is johnson kill diabetes. russia was actually willing to give up, wait a lot in that deal of what they have that we did. and so as the war goes on, their position is only going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. because obviously the ukrainians can actually dislodge the russian army from where they're at. and so the longer the way the words that a negotiations are going to get nikolai, it's very interesting if we look at what the, what was negotiated and assemble. it's fascinating. zalinski was asked to give up what he didn't have. i mean, it's remarkable. he didn't have the don bass. it didn't have the crime in. he was asked to give up when he didn't have, and now we're looking at, we are the gloss. well,

the bottom line for me is that the outcome of the negotiation will be set by the scituate, the military situation on the ground. and right now everyone is still jockeying for position as this has been going on for a long time. you're beginning to read things about how in, in american newspapers, how zalinski is, is recognizing that he may not be able to achieve victory. and all these accounts, these narratives are setting up the various constituencies in the west to make concessions, whether they want to or not. because once the counter offensive, assuming it, it runs its course and is ultimately unsuccessful. at that point,

all the cards are in rushes hands and the decision will have to be taken on rush aside to advance or just stop. and at that point it becomes an imperative for the west. you negotiate this, go back to our guest and one to do by that because of the way i look at it is here is a way and it's already been mentioned on our program here is it's been a lot, but a lot of lies and deceit here the russians, i think, well, unilaterally decide when it's over your thoughts. well that's, that's my minus thinking there as well. i think um, they have no problem there, so to speak, to the go shake with. and they are surrounded by um, trying to intransigence. it seems to me that's um they have to go out to reclaim whatever is left of the, the clear, the independent down best regions. they might go as far as or data and they will

have to then be confronted if made so then besides to uh, sending the police troops officially, which would be a dis oscar for everybody, but so i don't see uh this um, as i said, as a turning point, you know, you know, going back to a previous point that, that, that, that was made. but at some point, this is one of these, off that too much for the west. the amount of money being called in to ukraine. the expense of the defeat will no longer be able to be to be caught up. and that is when courageous people in politics and academia monitor population will need to come forward and really get rid of. it's not just about be to renew it and it's about people who shared the same ideology as a really needs to be a focus on in the public schools in the united states. and they really need to be

gotten rid of. yeah, i, i've been, i the people that, um i dance guy was i talking about. they don't exist. okay. they've been marginalized, they've been cancelled, and they're all folding puppets. okay. i wish we could wish that was a track, but i don't see it because so much hubris is on the line right now. again, this is, you know, they, they did this to themselves. they ratio themselves into this. go ahead in portland . yeah, i mean, and if you look at the history of the people that are involved here it's, it's, it's hard because you will get to bite. and i mean, he has had a long career in american politics at this point. and at this point, he has been pro war every time he's been pro war with every what he was pro vietnam. he was pro, into this lobby a i rack in afghanistan, where as much as creation is anybody else is i still remember him sitting at the table next to george w bush saying that saddam had weapons of mass destruction 45 minutes away from

being launched. and so how do you negotiate with this man? how do you need to go say any but how do you negotiate with this mentality of this world view, this ideology, that's the problem. you, nikolai, we're rapidly running out of time. but you always have a word of optimism in, you've already kind of touched upon it. i mean, you talked about realism here. i wish we could have realism here, because you know what, europe and russia are neighbors and they're going to be neighbors for a very long time to come. go ahead nicholas. and there will, there is an establishment. there is a deep state, but there is also, there are also alternatives to them. they keep springing up and those will not go away either. i'm not, i don't know when or if they will try them. but certainly their voices are becoming more and more heard. a bye bye all i think, and that's a that is

a reason for optimism in the long run. oh, okay, well, i mean, what is the long run here? because, i mean, can you do see, what do you see the west accepting russian security interest. i mean, that's what this is all about. i mean, the russians, it's all black and white. it was on december 17th. right. the, you know, the months before the complex, i mean, everybody knows what russia wants, can they, can they accepted, denying it all the way they will effectively accepted. okay. that okay, let's go to one. did you buy that? do you think that they get, i mean this is eating so much crow. okay. this is not afghanistan, it's not a rock. it's not libya, it's different. go ahead in london. i think they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll try and sell it. so as a victory, whatever happens um but so i kind of see rush, i bought a bunch in the deal. collins like streamline tries agenda along with the american exceptionally since the military industry still prop tried for made something with

china, another dangerous adventure, but they will try and divert attention from your brain ultimate. okay, so what looks to be a certainty for you? okay. ever. we have one, we have one minute left. so this i, i have the solution for the neo cons and the victoria new ones of the worm. how to get out of this. and it goes something like, it's, well, it least the russians didn't, may go to paris. we won. that's what they're going to do. go ahead and portland. yeah, i mean, i'm sure that they'll come up with some sort of a scenario that the americans are very good at that they still like to say that they want in vietnam to you know, we killed so many more of them. that means we won the war, but, you know, they'll, they'll just come up with something. i'm sure either that or they'll just started another war similar else. that's what they usually do. well, it, it's very interesting because these are leads that you are easily entertainment

into intangible to in the west. the may seem to be more apt to creating problems and solving any problems over the last 50 years or so. gentleman, that's all the time we have a want to thank my guess in portland kingsley and in london. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. remember, across the the looks of thought there were some openings to students, the sluggard has done so right now, let sure they thought clearing this, the post is only on the at the is that i, that's a get a minute. got another i need, which is

a and you just saw on the concrete answer, of course to ensure material which is in the moment when i do it's a lot of florida. it's elizabeth, again, is oregon. rachel, sort of, well in the middle of something that we get presidents and not limited results, would you 20 and then would you do me a solution for sure. and i'm comfortable to much what? which insidiously certificate process the cost of acceptance. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show seriously as why watch something that's so different. listed of opinions that he won't get anywhere else to give it please or do have the state department c i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead,

change and whatever you do, don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching. but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way the russian army gains don't hold on the for lines of ukraine conflict that this key of cause on nato for don't doing enough to me security demands. it's a 2 of us treasury secretaries visit to china as afraid, unlike ship defeats run for between washington and beijing. big books, small visits, british parliamentary records reveal the form of the list. trust is even more than a $100000.00 for every since china bushing shipped by one on a shelf in the.