said the russians, are you yeah, legally, under the request of the legitimate syrian government, and that is the right of the shooting government under the international law to have to ask each from any country. and that is belie, your russia has met its database robins, how the early we can use a shipping up for now. i'll keep the updates coming up the top. do hope you can join me then as well. that's after another visit to the whistle blower studios. the, the, the

the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. non peter live out . nature was a peculiar organization. it claims to be defensive military lines. but at the same

time, claims it must constantly expand. add to this, the alliance is quite to project stability. in reality, it projects instability and in security and made russia, it's primary enemy, the processing, the upcoming nato summit. i'm joined by my guess, nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in portland, we haven't been ripped. he is a freelance journalist and in london we crossed through the income mackenzie. he is a visiting lecturer at the law. school of the university of westminster are a gentleman. crosstalk roles in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate nichol. i let me go to you. first of, you know, there's been a lot of, uh, there was a lot of talk about the ukraine. so got counter offensive. and now there's a whole lot of talk about the upcoming summit. and bill is the nato summit, of course. and, but it's quite peculiar and yeah,

and i'm going to use that word. there seems to be a lot of double talk and ex, explaining what's going to happen there when nothing really much is going to happen . they're, they're going to throw a few bones to uh, to the ukrainians and other than that. and there's no membership in the cards. maybe no membership ever in the future. what are your thoughts as somebody to is approaching right. i think the game is lowering expectations for ukraine. i think a senior polish official and just said not to expect too much. but on the other hand, sometimes it turns out the united states to manage is through the whole coersion and other on so on. pressure is to pull a rabbit out of a hat at the last minute. this has happened before when it's been able to

sell its own objectives in a way that seems appealing to others and then uh, hide from them of their, their long term implications. so i'm, i'm still very wary about what this upcoming nato summit might lead to. well, they didn't let me go to you in london. i think nikolai, as usual, is spot on here and i'm, but what's interesting is, i mean rabbits, it'd be cool. it could be pulled out of a hat. wouldn't be really about ukraine. it would be about russia, and this is what this is all about. go ahead and wanted. yes, that's absolutely correct. so then i agree with the last, the comment that they, they, they, they, ukraine, coffee expect more than the, the usual they will just simply be giving them a more promise of arms and that be a nation wide. in the meantime, the ukrainian societies being the, you know, it's being disrupted because it's,

it's disruptive. it's a disruptive, a saying, as i think based no question of the ukraine, the company as a member, because they simply do don't fulfill any of the criteria for the so called math. so as you said, beads are, it is about so old about russia or even at the expense of the absence obliteration of the crate and as they should states and the, the, you know, the actual degradation of, um, uh, european society and, and, and european security too because that's not being addressed here, and we've actually create more in security because you will have a revisionist, so ukraine, i haven't, i mean, there's not a whole lot of logic involved in this here. those that want to push to give exceptions to ukraine to get into the alliance. well then there is a pay in europe and more, i mean, who in their right mind wants that go ahead and portland i think that everybody kind of has to play

a game where they all want to pretend that they wanted just for, for our purposes. but no, i don't think anyone actually particularly wants to start a war in europe. i mean if they wanted to do that, they've had ample opportunity and they haven't done it. so i could see pool would maybe even sending in some volunteers or something like that. but i don't think it's going to be any ukraine's definitely not going to join nato, no bid. and they've made that quite clear. okay, well, let's go back to nikolai and kingston and then what is the long term implications here? because, you know, it is a nato consent talk all it wants about future membership of ukraine, but that's the red line for russia. and that's why we have this conflict. and so, you know, it's almost kind of an echo chamber and in may till land. okay? because the no matter what comes out to build this,

the russians have already made their position clear, and they're not going to budge from at least there's no evidence of it go ahead. nikolai, the hope lies, not in the current leadership, political leadership in nato countries. but in their successors, there are interesting movements of support, particularly in germany, with the rise of alternative parties to prominence that are very much skeptical of nato expansion. and the phrase is already been made use of forever wars that are going to be a burden specifically to german tax payers. and i think as germany goes, so if, if the conservative right wing in germany does come to power and sticks too. it's a skeptical agenda of on,

on german foreign policy and 6 to reverse that. then i think we will show more courage along the same lines displayed in france and italy, which is basically their right wing parties have, have caved to the nato agenda. correct? yeah, well yeah, i'm sorry, i'm going to have to throw your own words back at you. i mean, you as a lot of coercive power. i don't think it will allow that to happen. i think maybe i think with nato land has to worry about is colored revolutions instigated by washington. if they don't stay in line, me guys go back to our guest in, in london it's, it's very interesting the term forever war has already been brought up here. and that is, i think, really what's at play here. the mountain states doesn't want ukraine in nato, and of course it doesn't, because then it would take on obligations. but the, the status quote works for washington, just fine. they have no legal obligation, so security obligation, so to protect ukraine. but a good it'll, it'll quite russia on the behalf of an update to, i mean, it's

a perfect scenario for washington. go ahead and london. yes, it's a, it's a terrible situation and i sealed it. so obviously a brochure is holding fast to weeks. it's always is and they can only get more line since the previous piece over the years have been um, throwing out the window uh best of letting me improvements in the obviously, um show the records of the signed agreements. and so if russia way sent out and i think the ukraine is on, it's the dog which is being systematically and try to be destroyed. and america is just going to find a way of abandoning you. great. it's done that before to the south, vietnamese. the stomach to the codes of the guns, and that is also the unfortunate fate that remains for, for ukraine. yeah. but that as i, i agree with our previous guess of the logic here,

but this complex has been turned into an ex essential conflict. okay. the u. s last in afghanistan. last and the rack. last of in libya, it'd be good and it had no real collateral damage. this is a very different thing. this is the do or yeah, i mean, spelt and berg. i've given it extending his term here. it is, it said recently in the last week or so that this is all about china now. okay. i mean, this is ex, essential, it's not just a proxy war halfway around the world in, in developing country. go ahead and portland, well land. in this case, i mean they've had busy planning for so long, you know, the, the provocation is against ukraine. go back all the way to the 1940s. it was when they, i believe it was the british you 1st made contact with the o u n. in 1944 and they have supported the members sense. so i think this one's kind of a,

a bigger deal for them was 88 of waste like libya and syria. you can just kind of, you know, throw some things out there and if it doesn't work out, she just leave put ukraine. they've been so invested for so long. but i think it's hard for them to pull out if there's weight. well, i agree here, nikolai, i mean it's all about the rules based order. it's about a european values. it's about barrels garden, i mean, they've invested a lot in this. okay. and, and it was a craven choice. i mean, the ukraine has nothing to do with european security, certainly that american security they have chosen to do this because i'm not that. but so let me say, 1st, 1st of all, that every war and that america america seeks to fight and sales to its public is an existential war. as gattis, dad was

a war also for all the same values. and i don't think, although we're trying very hard, we haven't quite reached the level of commitment, the resources that we, we spent, and they've got us down over more than 20 years. so these things, these, these uh bouts of uh, of imperialism which is a recurring thing in american foreign policy. continue and, and we'll recur, but uh, at the end of the tunnel i see the promise of realism. realism being simply a recognition of the facts on the ground. and when they can find me, if i can interrupt you, do you think victorian do you think victoria knew in things that way? and i think victoria newland is not a permanent component of the foreign policy establishment. everyone's time

is off at some point and this particular bout with imperial expansion will have a lot of, i think, a long i don't, i hope lasting. i called a recuperation there will be sort of the hang over effect from this. i hope will be more dramatic. than it has been for it again. well, nickel, i'm going to talk about that in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming nato summit stage with

r t the the me, one of the real flows of luna flow to most of the location of the unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had every now through you know, to production with it. so i guess it was good to the great deal to the youth,

suddenly look as little as you keep on my uh, mazda thought, this new, new, new one of our, from new and i got the sale price on notice i wish to know who i need i know you gave him some more promotion to try to put them with us. call them of the a party bill because you cannot push the couch. so for those people to go with the 0 to want the fondest to should buy a new on it. hold on site in central 7 won't get to the yo yo not on the ticket. most of them. the most reason is munoz curtis. imagine that if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out some about. so when i give up,

if i go for x perspectives, don't put your human symbols on display especially on stage these guys. so you guys don't talk to strangers. 7 void noisy gatherings and was wondering for sure me know what she can relay and get them in and what are she's eating your colleagues and perhaps