x you give people have to read so that these other proceed and that, so they prevent being the developed country. it is a no show that is we lot dots. the lines already even started their lives. they'll be able to do daily data. i don't think the magnitude of the problem is not address from the score really low and the also has to do with it at these even gone foot in the u. k. it is not totally the temperature rise. that one has to and what this one has to also look to is the fact that this very country, which is known for his demo 3 see had 3 prime ministers in just 2 or 3 months. so this it cannot make mater is not totally destroying the nature. it is also not deliberating to the need. so the developed countries because if study explain date to be nature and painting that me being in the us or in canada or in russia, i would not be impacted by it. that perhaps is not going to happen. we have to take

lessons for what is happening and you get and all the natural disasters that are happening around us. and they're not happening only india volume. the dish pack is done oriented together happening and the government frontiers. oh absolutely. but they're not affecting those developed countries as much as some of the developing turret punches of you mentioned them. maybe i'm teaching benches, but i think when it comes to various international environmental for the most common dynamic is still for the developing nations. are the most effective nations to sort of try to your trip wealthy countries into providing some money while the developed countries still continue with um, sort of exporting the environmental lee. i'm front of the policies onto the developing world. and sometimes it looks really like a key back payment for the preservation of the status quo. and both sides agree with that. now you are arguing for change of paradigm. how do you think it could be

implemented and who should be the initiators or that change? it is not only some money that is being uh, the model that is being demanded on clear grounds of responsibility. the account is the one to accept the term liability. but in the day, it is the damage that is being paid for the loss that that is being bars. and the loss is actually being caused by the very exploitative model of development of the deadman. that's gotta be said also, it is not only a gun for money, it is also a call for system change as you, as you write the police. and we have seen that before the war, there was j. j. the changes started very slowly,

for example, or germany gave particular nation that could be, it's a lot to be using court anymore. and then you get also in the call that was headed in start glen, breast tied pharmacies out from good. but then because of pressure coming from the devil, nothing was on. so the compromised language was phase down. so the problem is we are asking for a system change, but we are doing that being under the influence of those who are responsible for this. for example, if you see them, they go see a sion team that the u. s. takes to the call uh parts i'm they, they have many players from the far situated industry. they konami is dependent on the far simple in industry. when you find to this malaria, you don't really take what you do is if you do with water, we have to take a very short break right now. but we'll be back to the discussion in just

a few moments extension the, [000:00:00;00] the acceptance. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do have the state department c i a

weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my shelves. they main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the welcome back to wells, the parts with the site here. that is why the house on chief executive officer by law dash environmental lawyers association is one. and just before the break, we were talking about how difficult it is to initiate the change. and i don't know if you would agree with that, but i think the, the issue of lifestyle is crucial here. because over the last several decades,

perhaps even more the this wester lives tell rich who said, and i agree with that totally is being sustained through the reliance on the rest of the world and through very explore the tests. and sometimes the iron clad reliance and the rest of the world, it's being propagated through media, through movies as something that everybody aspires to. and it is pretty clear from all the calculations that people, uh, we cannot afford that kind of a live sold to everybody home this funny because we have one and another 2 or 3 planets to explore it. do you think it's possible? do you think it's realistic to arrive at a certain definition, a certain review of a lifestyle that will be dignified, socially desirable, and at the same time respectful to the environment, then allowing for the generation of, of the nature that we are using. i very much think it's close to that, and this is

a confusion that we see in march in the nation. and then the next generation really says sustainable lifestyle. we often think that we do not to know the onset of this question here. mean by living. oh, the children really wants to go abroad for studies. they want to go to develop the country and they want to build up the carrier and they because they're very comfortable with the immune. it is that the developed countries offered them too. but i can see a definite change in the younger generation know, but i'm coming to that lead to when people ask me what is sustainable lighting? say? i said light for the fire learn? oh, well the fire writing bundle with dish is a sustainable nice day. she has all the things that are needed for this sentence, gone for the leaving. she has all the things that mean it keeps weeks,

but she does not have grade. she does not ask for more and more and more and more. and he does not ask it from others. on the other hand, they explained to margaret is actually building their faction on the i don't like equity either spectrum. so i think it's more to agree then the next thing when you address that, you very easily find the destination of sustainable living and sharing the dish. every time i look for the dishes, tell us about the growth. they tell us very soon, really to become like the developed countries. but it is the model of the developed country. that is the reason for the scepter strongly of climate change, but actually don't take into consideration. i think a lot have to do with the thing of consciousness in the next generation. and this,

i do think the call. i have gone back with a very positive feeling, number one, because our leaders this day says the pressure from the communities and they wanted to come back with some definition currently. but 2nd, this time we saw the children shanty scrub and folks i met justice. so i expect a responsible citizen, read and respond to the leadership of the new generation. i want to bring in the question the issue of globalization, which i'm sure lifted millions of people out of power, but it also has a shadow side in it, in a sense of outsourcing all the negative for example, you know, shipping the car back, garbage, ofa, western countries to asian countries or air pollution was no stop production or instrument of working hours. what have you and i wonder if this more balanced, more ethical,

lifetime warranty and video land lifestyle is possible within the concept of globalization. because, you know, if everything is global it's, it's hard to understand who is the responsible for this little corner of the world . it is very important for us to be critical, but it is also important for us to be hopefully we can't change the things if it starts losing faith in every process. uh and in every institution you see i am unable to put down and a very proudly c public dime is protecting. it's a nature at the same time mainstreaming. we drove a licensed agent, so they have a good bit said god, for example, the constitution of what does clearly say that you at what really never be this trying foreigners to an extent that it comes down below 60 percent down

a children haven't got the right set of education, i must say, look, i do wonder they're dealing with the plastic monet's very successfully. so the instruction and the cause of this issue has been handled very nicely with right set of rulers in the driving into on that in the it all part of the way communities seduce the site is working to find the transition from texas with 200 percent renew or but we're having hard time to get our governments to listen to it. and our governments are also under pressure from different governments. these, they have to explore the course. they want the gas company they want, they might need somebody to get to do. do we have this and what's the worst thing that's happening here? it all part of the what is the governments are out there to deny us. all right?

to say no. so the more we say yes to renew, but the government keeps going to say, no, we want to cluster, develop this one. cool. and really want to say no to the board. we are just being a, in the street with governments monitoring the guy himself. so that is one thing that i see that is growing all around the world. so right, just didn't know has to be something that has to be recognized. now uh, you mentioned that the governments are often uh, facing um, conflicting uh, goals and agendas because sure everybody, i'm sure i liked it if they have an opportunity to protect the environment, they would do that. but the, they're also more immediate concerns about, you know, provision of services, etc. um. so there's a lot of talk these days about uh, cities and how urban development should received and so secret that the policies or cities around associated with the,

with the birth of civilization. and i've heard some especially speculate that they may be also associated with the demise of both uh, solicitation and ecology. now do you united nations panel on climate change recently recommended smaller cds and more walkable cities? do you think that's a workable idea? and what do you think would make living in the mid sized c, b as attractive for let's say, an average brian glove ashtray or an average russian as leaving in cities like dot com or i must go? yes. thank you. i think the motors exist that can be followed. that's can slow down your g, d being grouped. but if you think g d p is the only disk of your development, you better also called how much are you losing your g to be because of the environment of the patient in bilingual dish?

everybody to the she is losing 3 to 4 years of their lives spent because of a petition and read into thing. it's log me some of that back up 1st and it started me some other family but it's my mother. it's my side the we don't really think get back to be sustainable alternatives, says the development model is do exist, but in the rational foster g d, p before gets the, you know, trust for happiness, about cities to see for, for the days this is the place where you get to livelihood, livelihood is somewhat secure to day evelyn, which has to be decentralized, which is not often happening in our part of the word. everything remains to do centric. we've kind of changed this. we aggravate farther because wanted the data or water to bundle dish, meaning the hope was the lady a might go on their watch. i don't really, you know,

address the cause of trying to change very fast. so with that more and more people going to be coming to tucker and this already on leave, the city we have provide the give you a flavor of him in this worthy said, i just hope that doesn't happen. of course, that basic. i look city in most cities, major cities, we find the same problem if not walking. cyclic is also an option improvement of the public transportation system as opposed to an option. so everybody has to have a car and that kind of has to come out on the road every day is some this idea is an idea that we have to just describe now. uh, if i may ask you one final question and you mentioned the uh, the apocalyptic forecast. the some uh, scientist, i'm making you about the degradation of the earth and nature. you, you mentioned the, the demise or the destruction of the coastal areas and some of the asian countries

. for some parts of africa. the opposite is being forecast, the very area, the environment, the norm is draws that will make some of the land fully and uninhabited. and then there is a question of $52.00 small island states for home climate change is already in that in special spread the thread that has already started to manifest itself in the form of more frequent and more powerful storms and droughts at, as you mentioned, the developed countries are also being impacted, but i think it really was agreed that they the action still falls behind the rhetoric. how bad do you think it should become before the world truly authentically springs into action on this one? i want to be hopefully here, although i can see that to be are missing out on time. you're not

addressing the problem in a timely fashion. but if you have the conference of parked is this time you have seen that the delegations extend the conference for 2 more days because they could not reach of constance. this done the last and damage they wanted to come up with different strategies, like declaring a separate insurance game. they wanted to break the you need, you have g $77.00, ad china. but they have, they manage to do that. even within that extended be that is because the effective country leaders are under pressure from their communities. they went to their designated for me to been that they have to come back. we sometimes do, you know, reboot to the a, b but, and that is by the butler. they should present, they did the focused on the present. they did the senate going to be present data.

and the negotiators did not allow a crack in the unit. so and the, and the developed countries, despite their other efforts, all, you know, declaring this insurance game and everything has to bogged down to this pressure. so i think a, the pressure is on the more they back did for me, it is getting organized. uh, things being probably start moving in the right direction. but we have much more organized bump and then slide the timber traders, faster industry, plastic industries, how the community resistors really communicate and talk through this. dig around, make sectors. how better leaving give the pressures of this economic sectors of the country, which tells you how long it's been take for us. uh,

do you know the change that we actually me, we unfortunately have to leave it there. but i'm really grateful for this. very distressing of the same time, somewhat of to mr conversation. thank you very much for that. thanks. thank you for watching hope to hear again. and it was a part of the the,

[000:00:00;00] the worst i'm opening is to install the slug restaurants code right now. let's showing the green light to post is all the if the is that i, that's a get a minute come other students need which is easy to saw on the screen. so of course ensure material which is in the stumbling id like to lock the door is elizabeth, again is busy or about a little screw. well, in the middle of something, i mean yeah, we did present to not degree with the results between you and the 2. would you do me a solution for sure, and i'm comfortable in which way which insidiously suit you in that process the,

the, there's an old saying war is hell. it is hell, it's full of death and destruction and the worst of human kind. in the meantime, war is more complicated than most people realize. there are legal and illegal ways to go about waging war and war crimes and crimes against humanity are all too frequent. perhaps more importantly, the effects of war on the human psyche can be devastating. just imagine the effects work and have on the people fighting them when those people understand what's happening. and when they have an appreciation for the legal justification for what it's called moral injury. i'm john kerry. ok, welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 a matthew whoa is a former soldier, a former diplomat and

a whistle blower in 2007 after his 2nd deployment to iraq, post traumatic stress disorder. moral injury and severe depression took over his life and he began drinking heavily. thoughts of suicide became his constant companion. in 2012, he stopped drinking and sought to take care of his mental health. in 2016, he was diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury in addition to the moral injury and depression. and all of this came after his whistle blowing from 2002 to 2008 mac. you worked on the afghanistan and iraq. moore's on police and operations issues at the pentagon and the state department interspersed during that period. matthew was an active duty member of the us military. he took part in the american occupation of iraq, 1st in sola, heading province with a state department, reconstruction and governance team. and then in unbar province, as a marine corps company commander in 2008. he was assigned to afghanistan, but in 2009 he resigned in protest of the american escalation of the war there.

since then, he's been a senior fellow with a center for international policy. matthew, who is bravery in standing up to the mike of the american military, industrial complex has been recognized repeatedly by his peers. he is the recipient of the written our prize for truth telling. and he was named as a defender of liberty by the committee for the republic. matthew ho, welcome to the show. thanks so much for being with us. hi, john. it's good to see you. thank you for having me. i'm very happy to see you, matt. i, i want to begin by telling our viewers that you and i are friends and i am thrilled that you're here with us. your story is so important to tell. and at the same time, it's also very complicated. your progressive politically. you are also a patriot. so let's begin with your career. tell us how you began in the military and then how you transition to the state department. sure, and yeah, it is complicated like most everyone's lives are complicated, not nothing is,

are really straightforward. and even years afterwards and you look back, you wonder how does that happen? how do i get to that point? how am i here now? so but i graduated college, i worked for a little bit in finance. i was bored. this was the late ninety's. i want to do something big with my life. want to be part of something important or do something serious. one to challenge myself. i end up joining the marine corps and i went to officer candidate school on january of 1998. uh sir, it was, it was an open house. japan for a number of years, was in the pentagon, and then ended up going to the rock wars. and after being in iraq where it's twice moved over to the state department where i was appointed as a foreign service officer. and he was in my that 3rd deployment to where that time to afghanistan with the state department as a political officer. when i was, you know, morally and intellectually broken, the dishonest, these are the wars was, was, was crippling me. i was so you mentioned no suicide or at that point because of what

i had done, what i had taken part in. and so seeing the escalation of that war and afghanistan by the obama administration, i chose to resign rather than and continue to take part in the wars. and when i did so i did so to quit, to walk away from it all, hoping i could leave it all behind. and here we are almost 14 years later, still talking about it because the reality is the wars are still going on. and even in afghanistan, what is no more american troop presence? the war goes on yesterday, asking people, the suffering goes on, is just a different phase of that work. you're absolutely right. you and i are similar in that following the 911 attacks, we wanted to serve our country. we believed that we were the good guys and we were supportive, at least early on of us policy in the region. we both drew a line at iraq. however, i worked on the rock war from c, i a headquarters, i was opposed to it from the beginning. you were on the ground in iraq. you were opposed to it from the beginning. tell us about that experience and about what you

saw there. all right, so excuse me. so i left from the secretary and navy's office to go to a rock. so i was a pretty junior officer in a very high level office. and so i had probably more of an awareness of what had been occurring and the distance between what was officially being said about the war and what was actually occurring in a rock. so in that 1st year, so as, as the white house, the pentagon and the major media reported that things were going, okay, it wasn't so bad, it just took me to time to shake out. i had the intelligence in front of me as well as colleagues, friends of mine in the marine corps who were in iraq, who were, you know, saying this is not going well at all. so by the time i get to a rock my 1st time in spring of 2004, i had this idea that this war, of course, at that point we understood to be a lie. we understood. there were no weapons of mass destruction. there were no ties

to off high to etc, but also to this war was a colossal era for american foreign policy. that what we had done was catastrophic, not just for the rocky people, but for the entire region. and the repercussions were going to be something that the united states is going to have to deal with for years and years to come. so you look at it from that, that policy perspective of what we did and what resulted from that cause. so many fires cause so much instability that you almost have to look at it and say my hand was planned because how could i be so incompetent? but i think as both you and i, john, no, yes, that incompetency. certain that in competency certainly does exist in those on full display in the rock war. i think one of the things that we think you would agree with this and this gets into this idea of moral injury, is that even though you disagree with it, you take part because you think you can do some good. you think that you can be a moral agent that you will retain your own moral agency. the reality is that in

something like war or you cannot, your, your, your, your nothing compared to that leviathan to that sports of nature. and so you become subsumed by it and you become an agent of the war. so whatever, however you think you're going to do good, how are you thinking your own bubble in your own spaces? you will do well that you will, they will not harm others. that you will have a white hat on. the reality is, is this is by taking part in the war. you're wearing a black hat. oh, you're absolutely right, matt. you were in the middle of a promising career in diplomacy and national security when you were assigned to afghanistan, but you took exception to us policy there in a big way. and you resign from government. what was happening at the time that like you to that decision as well? personally i was, i was again, like i said before, intellectually morally broke and then i, i think that's the best way to describe it. i just lied to myself for so long about these wars gone on with the wars, be training,

all kinds of principles and values that i held in that is the essence of more injury that you transgress that well, your, your core foundations of who you are and whether those be inspired by religious or ethical, or moral or historical, or what have you. under paintings, you've transgressed those, and it, and it's a darkness that is hard to describe, unless you had experience it. and what i planed to people i ought to point out to people is go back to high school, go back to macbeth, m recall lady macbeth. and having the blood on her hands and how she can get that blood off her hands. and she didn't even do the killing right sheets, but she was involved with it and that guilt consumes her and ultimately destroys her. and i think when people reference an understanding the in the largest human sense, the largest and is larger idea of regret, deal shame, and how powerful those things are taking part in the worst continue in july. and then getting to ask a lie to myself about what i was doing,

and then getting to afghanistan and, and say, thinking okay, maybe this will be different than a rock. maybe this time where we'll have a purpose. maybe this and ministration will have some objective in terms of actually like bringing about stability, bringing about some end to the suffering, the asking, and people doing something that actually promotes american security rather than continuing to jeopardize it by have by, you know, conducting these occupations. and so seeing that the obama ministration was no different than the bush administration, seeing that the escalation of that war, which was a mass of escalation of the war member when brock obama comes in the office. there's about 3035000 american troops in afghanistan about equivalent number of contractors and about 15000 nato troops. by 18 months later there is a quarter 1000000 man, western army composed of us troops, data troops, and contractors in afghanistan. so it was a mass of escalation of the war,