the, the goes without saying nature was a very aggressive military alliance. who would have thought that at the core of its belief system was believing in uniforms, the biking ministrations decisions just a cluster bombs. ukraine demonstrates this, the the, the

the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome across stock were all things are considered on people though. it goes without saying nature was a very aggressive military alliance. but who would have thought that at the core of

its police system was believing in unicorns the bible administration's decision to set a cluster bombs. ukraine demonstrates this. the, to discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, martin j america. she's an award winning journalist and commentator, and in budapest we cross the jordan, samuel, he's a pod cast, read the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. are gentlemen cross up rules in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciated. alright, let's start out with george in budapest. well we're, we're going up to the escalation ladder again. a, something that the by the administration said would be a potential war crime sending cluster, obviously ukraine. um, um is now. um, um regular policy here we have a dot, a pending unofficial se remarkably russian victory, worse than civilian cluster,

bombed us. that's the us panic a. so george become mono is open for everyone to see. and it's pretty ugly. george, it's survey is very ivy. it's a big way you're absolutely right. is saying that the united states, the glad early on that the alleged russian was using, plus the bombs and that this was undoubtedly a war crime. so now the bible says this was a very difficult decision to take. but nonetheless, which okay, then the end of course this is all this has been divided into ministration. mine shotwell long. no, no, absolutely, no, we're not going to do this. no, no, we're not going down this bob. i'm not. yeah. all right. you, when, once you see you, you bring it up, let's do it. so now we've had these wounds of off and really from the beginning we've been told really getting all the way back to trump in the, the javelin javelins was, supposedly you're going to be the, the game changer for ukraine. and then with that all the,

how it says on the high mas, uh, we have the bradley fighting vehicles. we've had the, the, the, the, the tanks, the left foot tanks. uh now, you know, then we had a few uh, a few weeks ago the, the hollow blue over the f sixteens. so now is the cluster munitions. and of course these will fail inevitably. um, then you have to wonder, well, what's the next step? because it doesn't look like the ones to give up, so it has to keep moving along the escalation lineup. but it has basically still no hope of winning unless it gets directly involved this out. then i still don't bucks . that nato is not a party to the conflict on that would, doesn't want to get involved directly. and so then talk to see what else they can do other than go on on this disruptive thought. you know, mine is it's, it's very interesting is that, you know, they, they, they,

they use the russians going up the escalation louder, but it's only the russians react to it and that, that is problematic in itself. and we have discussed this, this program, but i thought it's really remarkable that you know, the, the, you know, most of the world outlaw outlaws, these munitions, actually a number of them, a members of nato do as well. but for a country like ukraine wanting to this to deploy them on their own territory. i mean, again, you'll get and it's, it is you have to scratch your head and seeing what you get out of it. you're going to destroy your agriculture, make land unusable on, say, for maybe decades. if longer, i mean, this is desperation, this is panic. as we've talked about before, martin, you're taking the word out of my mouth, distribution. yeah. absolute desperation. and how can you, how can you look at this strategy without seeing it within, within the context of losing sight of losing strategy? because, i mean, it must be very confusing for lensky and it's about

a new thing. i'm in care of looking at this thinking. okay, well, you know, joe bought in has a moment of disability. you know, he, i see there was just a moment of silence. he was just punched. it was a few seconds. we actually said 2 magenta's. i think what we're running low on m a and that was the key point. we're running low on, on what we've known this for a long time. we produce it on the show. months ago that you're going to reach this tipping point where you can't really carry on functioning. but i'm sure it's honestly, i'm really sure that they would go this lower because i know a bit about plus to bumps in a few of the was i've come up there been just about the last one in 2006. when these ready, i'm an 11, i'm where i was the coming up for you and there is like a recall just the bombs test of homes of you'll choose to what i'll click there really. okay. there's nothing lost yet. nothing more malicious. nothing really more gut wrench and then the officer affects. so trustable is why, because the people who get killed by plus to bones are basically children,

as well happens with customs is about 20 percent and don't exclude the other problems. around this old, almost around the ground was to explode. a couple of the ones that don't explode with soil too, so that means the slow, so they stay in the ground for decades. you look at loss, you know, 270000000 comfortable in the americans drops, allows and still today children are being killed by these trust a problem. so what is the strategy behind this? i'm wondering, i just want to how much of this is coming from your training and coming from kids have all the factoring in the us? i think, i think uh, i think what we're looking at is these are not going to be use an offensive with an offensive strategy. i think i can be used in a defensive way when they assume russians were fine. we break the lines and come over and possibly when i was you dropping to the cluster bombs, you create just absolutely. doug jensen, i'm civilian deaths, but trust the bonds. i mean this confusion so they can have american propaganda

machine will actually touches. i'm fake it and show this to be a russian atrocity. look what the rest is done. you know we, we, we would just pull our defenses. we have to use our customs against the powerful tanks and that powerful on a and now the images that we've got now. yeah, it's interesting, i'm against that. we've got a lot of images of russian and you kind of in troops coming and show the horrible. terrific images, we don't have much of is that children a disability and that's going to change the cost of bummed decision will create a new media agenda. and you're going to see lots of free hand up video, full listing media and understand that the subject is going to be done civilians and the children is going to be on this side of the border on the, on the crime center. really busy american cluster. the american made cluster bombs the day, the george, the, the, the, you know, you know, looking at this and a vendor bigger perspective. so in a, in a couple of days, that will be the bill,

this nato summit. so we're not going to give you membership, but we're going to give you a cluster bombs where you can pollute your own territory. but what a deal, what do you say george? well, it's, it's a real ball again. so without that, i mean that's uh the, that's going to be the message. but the interesting thing is, you, i mean, you mention about how the most nato member states actually signed onto the convention on plus the, me, a nation. i think something like 25 other study ones, so it's, it's almost all of them assigned on. so what are they doing about it at the moment? they're letting known to the face of a journal as well with very, very unhappy about this. this is not a good thing, you know, we're losing a moral standard. you know, well, it was the moral high ground receiving the high ground to the russians. but of course, the americans know just the life in the sleeve when when they hear is because it

doesn't matter what america's nato popping to say. america calls the shots and all french dolton. but said this, or we have different views on this, on like it. some don't like it some uh, i think it's illegal. some though it's up to each individual nature member space and that's it. that's, that's it. that's going to be the position. you know, we, you know, we can complain, but america calls the shots, give them that's really going to be it. so by doing sort of made clear when we're not going to get ukrainians and they, so while the war is taking place. so why did you say that as well? yes, the baltic states bowl um, you know, bloss 30 you gotta get it. got to get it. and now now is now is the time to do it. but none of these are serious military forces. i mean, the only country in nature that is, there is much, was this the united states, and obviously you, i,

this days knows you grains in they. so then it means war was rush or you can actually, it doesn't want that. so that's it. you know, well, so therefore we're going to fall view off, cluster munitions, and you know, we will give you a, a, a nato ukraine council. it's a very grand type of major you, grand council. you can have that. um, but no, no membership. uh so the time being a well martin, i mean what was, why would the us the board membership, i mean they have the best of all possible worlds right now, is they, they can, they can give you nations and armory and everything else to the ukrainians and still be able to quote unquote stay out of the conflict while they're ukrainian brethren are dying and drugs, i mean, and now their children will start dying in here. i mean, is it the people watching inventory and e and jake sullivan? blank and they must think this is such a sweet heart d a sweetheart deal for them now you radians. of course one moment. yes, i think so, and it's a lot street right. what was the american sign up to anything which would just take

this conflict to a completely new level under level that most of us couldn't even imagine in our streams they want to contain it. but to them it's interesting. the storybook press conference a couple days ago revealed quite a lot and i admit i watched it start off. i didn't watch it and i listen to them and i'm the some of the things they was saying were quite profound. i think there's money problem, not only how big of a hardware problem, there's also a money problem. and the problem with these institutions like nature and why that you is that we have a default setting in my experience of the coming in the religious and the default setting is when things don't go well. we ask for more money. he doesn't want to time. you know, when we say it, what we do, we also have a lot of it sounds crazy, but that's what they do. and that's what's happening right now with nature. stilton . but i think has been kept on for another year. not just because he was just about as sick as on 6 of a vile puppy, but, but you could ever imagine any is,

but it's all about money. um, nature needs more money. oh martin, who really wants the job at this point. okay. i mean, the way things are going this conflict will be bookend by stilton berg. it'll be binding stilton birds war and we'll, we'll be talking about it for a long time. but he's got his name all over it. i don't think there's a lot of people that say, i don't know if that's a good career move right now, cuz they're, they're defaulting to close the you want to be, well, didn't want to be in that situation. i'm sorry, keep going. know so back with the money thing. i mean, he still, somebody made a huge issue about um now and they to budget was expanded by 8 percent this year, which he said was completely unpredictable. well, it will need to be, you know, needs to be spent of a lot more, not on the so happy, the 11 members, our company reaching the cheapest energy be criteria. but it really is all about money. we're running out of stock. so running a village equipment generally, i mean if you look at the last week, i mentioned the show, the bonus bank, especially banks, will help in the central bank be bankrupt. how do you,

how does the gems expect to fund it? will do to understand is when this kit is sent, the is both with taxpayers money from the central bank. so these are these countries, if these countries are running out of cash, then that means the war is, you know, i think still them, but realizes, but it's as much about money is about equipment. and we need to push this. this idea of this program that we need more and more money and i think the take away from it is, but i'm going to contradict myself. i said a few weeks ago, i think that some of the west is looking at a short term strategy short term, or i think what's happening now with nature with member states and this meeting of those is, are they all now shifting a goal post again? i think that should have been the subject right, cause it's a very important all the time we're going to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine staying with our team, the

the, the welcome back across the board. all things are considered on funeral of elk. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real moves, the right to go back to america as martin, as usual, we go to a hard break and you're trying to make an important point. so basically it was the other side of the ship. now we're having a shifting gopher started here, but you need to indulge yourself in this on it many times. this one now is trust the bottoms. i'm very much a losing structure. you very much. let's put your train on the back foot. i look a defensive way of slowing down the russians. and also that's introducing new saying, which i think you're gonna see a lot of in the future,

which is nature also more and more money. why? because i think for the 1st time, the wisdom nature and the items haven't noticed that they're looking at the wrong one. now. now the wrong thing about 6 months when they're sitting now they're finally starting to realize this could be a few years. and we have to prepare for it. well george, i mean ukraine is, is being clabbered right now. i mean, how many years can they sustain something like this? we have to remember also infrastructure is being degraded and with the, obviously, with the loss of life. i always, it just got to strikes me gentlemen, before we move on is that you know, that, you know, for years and years and years, you know, and trump really got wound up about this, you know, you have to pay 2 percent of g d p to your defense, so here we are with an excess dental war, but you still case going use like point 5 more for it. i mean, infectious dental. i mean, you know, i mean we've, we've seen all these world war to build, you know, they have, you know, it's always an arsenal democracy. everybody's mobile lines and all that. but nobody

wants to walk away from their, you know, cup of tea knows and lot to use, i guess. okay, if you just let the ukrainians do it, george. well, that's the thing. i mean nature is, it's a protection racket, but it's a protection rank it. but is run by the united states and people, the european member states. it's a freebie for them as it has been ball decades, which is the americans. but always though it out of the americans complain is a oh i you know, like trump in particular, but even all of us are completely, yeah, europeans on doing an up and not pulling that way. but why, what the europeans bull the way? because they know the americans will always step up, they would always keep up the money as trumpet. so of course they going to say, no, we don't have the money, but you know, we give you a dollar for everything and so on. but they know we americans will still do it and they will always do it because ultimately, nato is an american racket. is the way america executive power in the world. i mean, the reason why i have to bear it is so dominant in the world is uh,

through nato. so dominating uh your band comes in at the end of the way. it does read it, but the mazda is bunch is absolutely right. i mean, americans are preparing for a long war and they think that this is going to bring russia to his needs. i mean, that's the calculations around since we're just going to believe them dry. and the longer it drags on economy will, will eventually collapse on the sanctions and they think they will be regime change . you know, they lower, they looked at regardless of the thing. but something like this will happen again. well, they don't really realize is the russia level, essentially, and i say, okay, well, it made so incense that ukraine will be a member of nato, irrespective of everything else. i'm actually will. okay, we'll just steadily demolish you. great. so what you'll get is just a nothing you just the, you know, a piece of a destroyed chair in transit, okay? you want to crate and they to take it. this is, this is the, you know, the, the,

the junk that's left over of what we had said on our power gaggle. a broadcast around the state where it is just made of, of a flat plane. moat, no agriculture, no resources, just re, i'm empty, real estate that with low bout martin, it's very interesting because if we look at it, we can degrade russia, you know, a break. it's a con i, we've heard this all before, haven't mean, i mean, it's really interesting is over the last, the 16 months or so. i'm being a resident of this country for a quarter of a century. all the stereotype. bravo, break, the economy is breaking up. the rest of the equipment doesn't work, it's all from world war 2 and except, but none of them it proven. now, i mean, even this progression affair, which was a clown show, i'm actually shows the reverse that there is no institutional support or popular support for some kind of

a illegal governmental the constitutional change. i actually, the west interpreted the complete opposite that as well as in face of reality martin, the beauty of the west update. so much salutes is also slowly erosion. and you know, there is a lot more chaff. now being thrown up on social media and all sorts of people who are making these obvious comments that they were talking about so previously, but this was a little fake news is also a lot, a lot of fake news. i mean, so much of what we have at also check out our video to george. imagine what they're doing. different regression tennis now. ok. george's, a of a tennis ball, or it was amazing to what legs, you know, do how to, to raise the russians from a tennis, you know, and this players have to take of the appear of the test. okay. so american tennis players didn't have to take a purity test when they over the us and maybe the iraqi and legally, but russians literally the different like keep going. i mean like on culturally

argue with people in india in america, sunset. and i tried to explain some, you don't understand the problem is 70, if not, 80 percent. so everything that we read in british newspapers is basically from the propaganda unit, which americans creates in care of. and if you don't believe me, just go down the articles and you'll go to the work of a 100 words down on if it was so nice that you're going to hit those 2 key words. so lensky says, and when you read, zalinski said, you know, it's, you know, i think it's been so much of these thickness stories recently the, we, it's really difficult to put this on a secure picture. you know, i, i think the, i think to your opinions basically going inside of this, they're getting tired and they begins realize that there's a landscape public and the unit is somewhat backfiring on occasion. because now the real world i think is about an age. this could have been, let's see how much credibility can you keep when you keep on changing the rules. you keep on a shifting your own moral grounds, you know? and now, you know, we, we had a lot of stories about the, the, the pounds and do keep up on this operations. yeah,

i'm sure pronounced that not correctly. you know, the worry was that it was gonna be a dusty volume. is alaska even set it even pre trial and suppressed a little is john with his, you know, in the west, unless thing you're, i'm total 0 opinions cooled them up. some of you, if indeed is good enough to look at this crap, you know, because the i a is even the, and they haven't seen any explosives on the building. and so which will claim in the lesson to put that. so there is a certain lack of credibility, and i think these fake news stories of black foreign on the west in general. but how i'm assuming, you know, everybody at the same time with so much control of social media. and then you start protest that you'll just be disappeared. oh, you know there's no opposition. george getting with with, with the time we have remaining emmanuel and the chrome, one of your favorite depaula doors. and i love following his career because he gives us so much material is a big, i don't know about ukrainian membership and make a big supporter. okay. so,

you know, i mean, it has been explained to me, is that, well, the friends see that, you know, the visa and in see of the eastern part of the, you know, of the nature of blocks, the polls, the, the, the bulk of the baltic states. so it's kind of sad in this day and age the prince has to worry about, you know, competing with the baltic states, but i guess they are. and then another person in the know, told me said, well, the crowd seems nothing else is work. so one thing that changes decision, wow, that is is no to go george. no to go. so definitely i know that go with my crowd is or is you know what he says on mondays, wednesdays and fridays have no bearing. and what he says on tuesdays thursdays and saturdays um, there's no reason to think anything that my problem say uh says sir, is there is the person who is that? uh that mesa was branded. he's also said that he's ready to talk at any time to boots in, but for some reason he doesn't do so. um and i think a day that he used to express skepticism about your branding nato. now he's in

favor of your brain and they, the, he is an entirely driven by his own political calculations. and i think by his ego, i mean it's like the every french lead defenses himself as on the colon and he's no no exception. so the issue about competing with poland, i think that's more salient as far as germany is concerned, because poland is explicitly saying that we are the leaders of your are because we have this way in ukraine. we have a sway. in the old days, we have a sway in the countries in the east, in europe. you know, we have, you know, they officially grad countries and so on. and, you know, we're now much more important than germany, which is always hesitating and squabbling between sergeant schultz and amelion of the above. so it's on, you know, it is marching as a kind of would be lead out of the east in europe. and the germans,

who should really put an end to this nonsense and able to do so because the sergeant schultz is a weak eric of the years. and finally and above our cars, our own fantasies. not sure exactly what she wants to, but she is an extraordinarily ambitious person. so comedy is unable to provide any kind of lead where it will quote of massive. i mean it, all right, so they did tell me to go to made a difference. but i don't think anybody in washington is complaining too much. george? no, absolutely not. absolutely. that's why i mean it's, it's very interesting. it again, we, you know, you're talking about media media generates these narratives. you know, nato is a completely unified and just, you know, it's been a new credit because of the grain. the issue is a, it's more unified than ever before. but if you just go to the 4th or 5th paragraph more and more disagreements going on, you down, gary and saying they don't want it. they find anymore. arms shipments here, we have this differences of opinion over cluster bombs. and we have a very rig,

they hit regular on even leadership of i q in europe. all of it's really low. it's about the i q of the room temperature this, this doesn't bode well for, you know, with long or martin. yeah. and uh, you know, when we, we have this basic things don't choose to and don't, yes, you know, i think to this'll be comes time for all this fake news and below how media reports on these issues. just a few weeks ago, wisdom media was saying that a lot of the eastern european countries had their meeting, and they want to send the troops to credit. most of the boots on the ground. i think a little cooler bluff on. let's do this. i think america it will bang it's based on the table as i get real, we're running the show. i'm just going to be and i say you never hear anything more of the story again because it was basically a bluff. we've had a lot blocks recently. you know, nothing is the limits how many blocks you can, you can cut off, you know, when you want to, if you want to keep credibility,

but the building this meeting will be attending blair. but this crazy stupid actual decision of, in creating this account so. so the ukraine of no other than sports, i mean it's ridiculous. just ridiculous. no, no, no, no, no i, i know what it is they, they get in the base service, it will be a little bit better. they'll take care of them there, but they are like tronic badge will be a different color. they'll have their name on the door in boston. who knows, you know, you know, it's old. it's a teeth clean what it is. okay. i mean, they'll be able to, they'll have their own mini bar in their office. i mean, this is a huge upgrade george out as of and they get to stay in much nicer hotels when you show her. maybe she'll exactly exactly end up and they really do, you know, when you look up the last i've sold them the again, i'm the, the characters of the maids or they do live high on the hall game is model is talking about they complain about

a lack of the 3 of us do not live high in the hog and we'd have no more time. and i'm going to say, mike, i guess america is. and in budapest, when i think of you were still watching us here at our to see you next time. remember across the rules, the, the but the not a court to go, we use and i made it could fail them,

but i seen the child support knowledge and was focus more on the uh, green. so i can do more for quote, as of course the thing that even see me is i have to the lady, can i take it? but as for you can throw this up here. but i just think of going, you know, uh the key for the zip. what's the zip beach key or the port might be able much, but a zip zip books. feel free to send me your thoughts and kind of a gamble for, for that cold. and then on family for me, do not go outside until a gene. yeah. add on for my dad. the village classic consciously to do kind of the game we might have even longer time for us to nick is off with me. i

wasn't looking to explain the way to waste has to buy 5 of your chit is i was on saw i was in the children's pro quarter to lucy samples. they see the zooming in the model with single the headlines write down as the criminal reveals of the automated put in date meet with the leader of the wagner group. and it's combined is just days off of their attempt to produce me. as we understand the rest of the president essentially was discussing the faith portion to this decision. the green light flushed the munition involved with the key of stokes anger and a host of countries including russia, china, and come bodies. but also in some of america's focuses in maine. so outlined