is a it was conciliation even possible. 12 to discuss that i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts, professor emeritus of history at the university college court. this is a robert's is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for your invitation. as you pointed out in one of your articles at western media are still awash with the theories and narrative. so what was on vladimir put his mind when he authorized this incursion into your brain. but according to you, they all missed one important factor which is put into the apocalyptic vision of a nuclear on your brain, imbedded in nato. what do you mean by that? and do you think that vision as apocalyptic as it may be? i have any grounding in reality in life. describe the the thirty's decision to go to well with your crime as a decision to try to take a buckle head prevents the right to prevent the continued build up of the nature ukrainian on. ready is on rushes,

rushes border. yeah. so he's basic perspective was the, that build up was on the media, retard french or russia and read or long. so what would actually represent the next essential french russian highest view. these arguments the set this, by the time and again since since the war began, was the russian. i have to type acting to recreate that right now. because the big data problem will be great to have the situation be western russia in the future. a subset as best buy see was a little but, but in the process leading up to the decision. um, if there's a particular amount of which i think might have to purchase calculations, you favor will because okay, so as over it will say, well there was a threat. we need to like we like it, we need to wage it prevents people. but obviously it was very risky. dangerous. i'm the king size. that's a huge defeated patricky. so my experience is what you get

a moment. it's not big for the munich security conference that mid mid, mid february, with whence landscape makes the speech of each kind of friends that your new crime with quiet new nuclear weapons. and this is actually the 1st uh no comment on in the west impressive mode. you not stations, but what's the fact that the policy of oklahoma truly operation is supposed to be a uniform policy, a as in doors by all of international organizations. now, professor rober, as you also argued, that i can believe that he was backed into the corner by the west and to recognize that fact that you know, he didn't have many great options, was not to endorse his perception or not to approve the war as a policy, but simply i'm it to the fact but i'm missing to the fact also requires some degree of analysis off of the western policy because pushing your nuclear armed adversary into the corner is hardly improved. and a wise,

do you see any appetite for this kind of reflection in the west, especially given indeed disaster as the consequences both for your brain and to some extent for the european union flip uh, you know, as you start and as an accommodation on the international test, i see my site, my functions to try to explain what, what's going on to, to explain people's motivations. right? and that's, that's why i'd be interested in relation to, to pc and then the rest of the decision to, to attack of ukraine. now having said that, as, as you indicated, that doesn't meet the site that i accept pollutants rushing. oh and i agree with these calculations. i don't, i, i, for the very beginning, i to oppose the war and i continue to oppose to what i think need to when we're having these discussions, we can travel or the full from the discussions that you see that very clear view about what's going on a well yeah. what kinds clips? laura actually just thousands of people killed wounded that ukraine has been uh,

devastated. there is uh, a dog rep on the, uh, at the risk the names and tortured every single time, thousands of ukrainian soldiers and rushes soldiers died on, on the front. so we need to as far as i'm concerned, the war is i these all started at least to be brought to the names i city best size search suited. as soon as possible. you transferred me over to the can i can i still piece here for just a 2nd because i think this is a very important juncture because when, whenever i have these discussions about security and morality, they're always sort of intertwined in a way that isn't very difficult to make sounds because i don't know a single human being. who would say that war is a good thing. there is no one who approves a hor, i'm sure putting himself doesn't improve a war. but why don't you come to matters of national security of morality and

ethics and you know, they and they don't always play along with the, the peer, all the test of commander in chief and wasn't as also the moral duty of any commander in chief british commander issue from the american commander into the russian from under each of our ukrainian one to defend the country. if they feel that as essential interest, that being threatened is also tomorrow, duty of citizens to actually jobs to political leaders and their decisions. and their consequences is tomorrow to take off outside observers like me to, to, to, to, to do the signing of my judgment. is that, that, that decision was wrong. that other possibilities of, um, we solve the problem is beauty. so i was still present drugs. i don't, i don't see that i reach the edge of the road too much again. so that's my argument is the purchase. humans continue to pursue the pos pos of diplomacy. now he said the bus, i disagree with lucy's decision to go to law. does it mean to say that i

blind human entirety for the well, i take it once as it is pretty slow without decision. well, i appreciate that would be not. ready in your credit boss, but all of us have responsibility to the situations. what route for printing? uh no. i pulled the trigger out. what was the west that loyalty discount, but by buddies night, so your credit military build up on versus boldest. it was ukraine, but by refusing to implement that meets we make story against 5. since that what we've had, we've had the development of this competing to a proxy will up between russia and the west. now, who wrote before that it's from put into apocalyptic perspective, going to warren ukraine uh, bad in the, in ukraine to stop this country from becoming another. nathan breach had, was not a difficult decision to make. and you have the russians didn't make that decision in 2014. they didn't make that decision in 2020. and even in 2021.

having a mass based very sizable contingent on the border with your brain. put an engaged in the last round of diplomatic talks with his american counterpart. it was a violent which unfortunately left nothing. i assure that we should refuse, indeed apocalyptic. i would even say biblically apocalyptic visions. are you sure that it was not the difficult decisions for seem to me, given every thank you, sad about the russians and the ukrainians being you know, essentially one people in his view i makes not to disrupt decision for him to make even what he believes. situation so it's the situation to be that that's what i was trying to put together. that's a relation to that particular point. um, but actually you're right, you mean you quoted what pollution didn't to didn't go to war and 2014 actually issued from industries front end, tremendous statesmanship. right. a switch law. i was actually so disappointed when

he didn't continue the pulse of the sites which i mean, i think that's true. the roberts to what i mean. diplomacy for the sake of diplomacy is the ruler 5. i mean ultimately the diplomacy should sir. uh, some practical goal. yeah. what else could he have done to uh, you know, make sure that the rushes concerns not only listen to but actually taking into account because, you know, it doesn't get higher the meeting with the american culture part of the machine saying essentially, well, you know, we will do what we will do i, i feet deep roughly. okay. so what we're talking about is the less than the response to the russian security proposals. so to step up to $22021.00. yeah. yeah . i think actually that had been some progress in those negotiations. i think you recall when punch in the be february, i had a conversation with lab. robbie said to lever, well, where are we?

oh is that the different market modes? and the girl said no, this, that there's still hope we should still continue with these with this because she had with these negotiations, drugs. and i said that that perspective items that the policy was actually achieved to some results, right? not peoplesoft the some results. there was a possibility of more results in the future rather than the switches back to you into a minister of foreign minister level. foreign minister, alarm roof is not responsible for the secures are 1st full low and human doesn't receive the, the security and briefings the president receives. so, you know, a manual put is in a circle pick many people with input ends in a circle, were shocked and afraid of this action, as most of us here in russia because it isn't consumables. for many russians filled us, we wouldn't be in war of, of our ukrainian neighbors. but at the same time, uh, you know, i, i bring back this, that's the question. what kind of a negotiated outcome would you welcome and do you think would how

to uh, sort of turn the, the course of events in some other more positive direction. yeah, i did. okay. we, we could, we can all have to just point back and forth. breath i, i would just like to choose this actually i think that i could see now what do you notice now about what actually happens as a result? what decision did they advertise the consequences in the kind of what it is $5.00 to $5.00. i think that he was, he wasn't comfortable i think he was, he was decided that a lot prudent course of action would be to continue with the diplomacy at least for least slightly nice for well, no, no, no. the lease has to have a set that is be very consistent inside. yes. so you recognize just the consequences. electric. she takes responsibility for i still think is the right decision by suspect that the actually the crystal at the end of february 2022. i don't think he would have been, he was taking this decision decision for,

but anyway, he has to have this for looking question. i was not arguing retrospectively about what might happen whether diplomacy could have succeeded with his calculation was the correct one and a lot to do the key issues. what happens next steps is how do we actually, how, how does this will come to an end to a secure piece? how do we repair relations between russia and the west, another company they live and those are actually very good questions. and you wrote the power to this operation who didn't have the reputation for being a realistic and pragmatic decision maker, perhaps to print matic. so that the sum of keys uh, wasn't counterparts believe that he would never take a kinetic military action to defend the country's interest. but, judging from your current understanding of his pragmatism and use your best judgment on that, not none of us have a crystal both here. how far do you think his vision uh, off a goals,

costs and means of this operation go? what do you think he sees, or what do you think would be in russia's best interest? uh, as far as the end of this operation is concerned, yeah. hockey. okay. now the purchase started, this will secretaries look, the pollution is also going to be the person that ends this floor, right? if, if the west and if the ukrainians ability to actually to, to, to the gosh, like on the, on the, on the state. so serious service basis, i think that would help to discuss with what we think about we can, you know, like speculate about what might happen. but i also think we need to work for us actually. okay. especially like, let's also feet what we'd like to happen. what do we want, right from one time from now? i want what's coming to it. is it as soon as possible? be realistic about it. so the territory that is occupied, but by, by russia will remain paul of russia. i what the actually you probably to get

security to to be neutralized, which is it wrapped in plastic, but i also wanted to get security guarantees to copy i. i did request, especially if i had a slow reconstruction. i'd like to see your current becoming a magic member, be you. if not lights up, i'd like to see a whole series of a completely different system of security, you know, developed in your okay, so that's my kind of what i'm trying to say scenario. but how would you read the book, okay, that the realistic problem that probably what happened, but it was more likely. so it varies like messy as to what in the form of the, you know, some kind of a ccr be a groups. well, some pool, the 1st present conflict, which would be what we might else like frozen, for instance, a very long. well professor roberts, we have to take a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments station. the or

the, [000:00:00;00] the, in the 1934 france invaded algeria and straight away the french started inhabiting it to

strengthen their position. the column is known as the new wires took the best land from day one. the local population was put into an unequal position and was briefly exploited this cause and as discontent. the people of l. g area began their long term fight for independence. in 1954, the banner of freedom was raised by the national liberation front. a guerrilla war against the occupants broke out. the french tried to suppress, to rebuild you in using chrome measures. whole villages were wiped out acts of georgia and executions of civil people including pregnant women, children and old people took place more than 2000000 people were born into concentration camps. however, these punitive measures didn't help. cl, jerry and patriot managed to induce france besides these negotiations. in 1962

heavy and the cords were assigned 14 l. jerry on the bass towards the independence . but this was achieved at a colossal price. algeria by rights is considered to be a country of martyrs. according to the calculations of historians, the french colonists are responsible for the depths of one and a half 1000000 algerians. the welcome back to was a part with geoffrey roberts person, sir, america, history of the university college. of course, professor rubbers before the break, we were talking about possible solutions and your very expensive christmas wish list for, for ukraine and europe and the everybody else, which i think we agreed on not very is not very realistic. but speaking of

a pros and cons, like what i'm hearing a lot of from the russian uh thinkers, and observers and even decision makers, is that they, they, they are strongly disappointed. and in fact, angry by the way, the whole, the conflicting procedure, the piece talks have been exploited by the ukrainian and the western side as a means off a supply more weapons to ukraine as a means of training the ukrainian military, but not as the as something that they actually committed to that is a trying to institution, jenny and piece. do you think it because you are an avid observer and i think you are trying to be a fair in this process. a fair observer in this process. do you think the russians contrasts the west or the ukrainians with any other negotiations until they accomplish what they deem as necessary for their security goals?

no, i mean the future use of the west is going to be forced into a sofa and, and some kind of a piece that's meant by russian military success on the rest of his when he was slowly. but surely, i'm not sure what foam or russian military fail. buick on these guys. guys try to feel comfortable between catastrophic, a thoughtful for the week. right. about fairly comfortable. those don't have nothing in that circumstance. then they won't be quite used and west will be forced to negotiate. and i think also in that kind of circumstances that you know, your voice is just the west side myself. ok. it's a piece talk. beautiful weston was try all to use the same kind of deals, stay in the home safe, and i think those voices will, will become, become stronger. but yeah, but even if you're kind of like a rosy scenario, go with the christmas wish list because i find you that would be a very risky disagreement for russia to up to think about,

given even what happened to deal with the mistrust. a given drug to the grievance prep broken promises, but i think the russia is going to, that is a huge was going to war a rush or not to take another huge risk in actually ending what i might do. some, some kind of a place and actually in that respect, yeah, i didn't put the list or vice list to go lead that are right. pragmatic russian apache, politically, it's like she might that stand up that kind of do so in what i'm kind of expect to, you know, displacement like putting to reason the incentive search when, when we get to the site for some kind of see thoughts on kind of a piece of basic room and i believe i do. okay. i can be facing the street. uh, somebody told me, oh i start or research reputation about like i'm convinced is that the property will be prepared to teach somebody compromises with your price and with the west,

i have to say no doubt about that. but that you yourself road that uh, any idea of, uh, a peace settlement with their current leader in the kremlin would be absolutely repugnant to ukraine and not only into its literature, but perhaps also to its wider population. is there anything that the thing that the west could offer and provide for ukraine to make these deal? these very bitter deal a little bit sweeter? the pressure point. yeah. the deluge the slowest continue to sudden longest bay because of wisdom support for you credit. the crisis planning on by using kind of what fi i have to say, i'm surprised. least probably everyone should probably surprise themselves, but they probably be able to, to find a slip content as well. because all west and simple to wesley draws, it simple, resisted that ukraine. these guys based negotiations. that's what's gonna happen unless, of course you get some kind of it. so no lot people in ukraine which breaks to pass

on through, they all come naturally. so neo nazi government, that doesn't, those was what, what, what's most, what's coming. so what's kind of type of yeah, so okay. yeah, i mean you, ukraine is what's the purchase will be direct katie and streaming tools police negotiations. but i think in the thought is what he's going to happen. and now i know that you are the one of the world's top specialist and style in and not many people know that the problem of your premium nationalism was not the as i was not dealt with even by styling. i mean, he tried very hard, but he didn't succeed in the ukrainian nationalist, were hiding in the forest and burglarizing neighboring communities well into the 50 is long after a silence on death. given the size and the attributes of your premium to ask for us abroad in the united states in the united kingdom, in canada,

and many other countries. i think it's pretty clear that the ukranian factor will remain a factor of facility for 4 years, if not decades to come. do you think though it's going to be a problem just for russia or do you think there and they will come a time when it will become a western problem as well? because look, for example of the chechen problem in uh, in, in australia and the european countries, you know, if used to be a russian problem. now it's uh, a widespread security problem for the european union. and the same happens with the other supports for national lumens or religious moments. do you think sooner or later the, the west will have to confront the ukrainian problem itself. but i think it's a probably for both restroom and the rest of the present time. you crank cheat, wesson's, right? it is very, very naturalistic. but as far as i can say that these 3 much less than they are, knox is the outers. they're not the majority of the economy. i'm returning and talk the charges, but they, as you know,

in both the majority within the russian population and they have, they managed to turn the russian history in the direction of the because because my also because they also had a huge base of mass popular support available, i had tenure of support from abroad by the way, with us as long as she could get by the way, we can discuss the history another time i, you know, i think the over one majority of ukrainian sleep will actually reconcile, reconcile, reconcile themselves to pace on i don't, i don't disagree with these just end up being held hostage. but then even though it's, it's not, you're not just me i'm, i feel and i would try to do the actual date either. what was this, any kind of compromise, any police pressure, any any? and so and, and will any last? so total loss is, but i remind you we can mix, that'll be able to succeed in the political, i'm sorry, if i'm relatively optimistic that sure if that can be a place that,

that it can quite, you know, we're rapidly developing to be 9 piece roll with an unstable and threatening situation in this day, the russian leader and i think the wider russell population feels when they and they see all those new knots and marches and symbolism in, in the ukraine. and it's hard for us to understand why would the west be so known shalonda about that while they're prosecuting the use of swastika know the swastika, the sort of him do isn't cymbals used for positive connotations. they and they do not allow these kind of simple as be displayed at traditional, kinda ceremonies, but for some reason in ukraine. uh, that raises very little. i very few i'm chose. why is that? well, let's go back to the other discussion about takes, you know, devices. yeah, because basically decision for is a strategic calculation. both is usually a quote, which is the section of this,

what you cause an anti russia ukraine development with this, with this ultra nationalist, russell phobic um it influences an anti rush. you can buy a site, which was crazy, which was the west, was perfectly happy to go along with them support winter clothes as well as to, to be able to tell you. so lensky is abuses of power, is repression of opposition. politicians to the suppression of russian ethnic minority speakers. all of that might not congress the russian orthodox church as he may have heard. and that's an anti russian campaign. this beginning on each side, you cry for lease since 2014. but of course when, when, when's the landscape elected president in 2090, that was hoped of that situation try to call elected with this impulse of the progress of them. so you probably know, did you would replace reconciliation? that'd be some kind of the settlement of delta you pregnant up your credit costs,

but that didn't happen. he allowed himself to become prisoner both the out for us. he refused to negotiate, to increment the documents agreement. so you can kind of marble, stridently, nationalistic, 90 russian, him so, so, so let everybody hope so. lensky is turned out to be a shift is also, if you find, but probably one of the biggest is austin's point for your client. i want to ask one last question as a historian, and i'm sure you know that the russians and particularly the russian president have the most respect for history. i mean, they, they treat history not as some of you know, like filter in contain themselves or, you know, to lie down uh on a couch with a history book. rather, it is taken as a field that directly informs domestic governance and foreign policy. and historically, as i'm sure, you know, most security threats, devastating security threats that took millions of lives of my countrymen came from

the west. do you think that perhaps the russians have over invested, or perhaps the west has under invested in history as a basis for strategic decision making the time on record. this is actually side uh i could do the pictures of buddies store and then the money professional actually use the historians. um yeah, he takes tremendous entry interest. the state is pretty much. yeah. shapes is perception. do you know the speech is the full historical references? so yeah, so history, sorry i oh, yeah. the problem is that you're, the west doesn't have the ship, it gives you if you still have a very different gifts, every every, all right ball, if you a very bad, painful view of history, all the restaurants the was doesn't share. she's in 40 or 50. it isn't the way of saying that there was simply doesn't care about the case. there are, doesn't know as well. no, no, no, that has to be wrong. no, no, no,

they care about history base that it's the establishment of history. oh yeah. that is completely different from which is obviously crude. he sees himself as the russians say, if you have to guess of that. yeah, it is part of a kind of long tradition of, of russia, russia, mega. so didn't quite have to subscribe to some notion of being a savior. i mean, here you go to that position to do good for your people. what else i was using the word picture. typically, what was going on to the side is because the list of beauty is completely different, but you saw me to the perception of most russians, right? or professional i, i see him that dictates that i say it was a new hit, but i mean, peers and stuff that you just drive it in the history of that very distorted truck kind of completely wrong at the street in the inbox here. so, you know, we have possible georgia by some perceptions. we have a class use of historical perspectives as well. well, english and sir referred to as the politics of memory. and it's,

it's very troubling that we cannot then agree even on historic events anymore. but i'm grateful that we still can have these conversations, professor roberts, we have to leave it there. but it's been great pleasure and great honor for me to talk to thank you very much for that. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to hear again. when it was a part of the the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the, we believe the word has been a strategic failure for ukraine. the secretary spoke to this in his speech he gave in helsinki of last month. i believe it was what that is. i'm sorry sir. excuse me, a strategic failure for, for ukraine, slip up at all or on the admission of reality made just hours ahead of the much