media and also in the us as well the you and usa, that's a lot of us. you've got 20 seconds, i'm sorry. is the a soft finally, a bunch of call tell drug dealers and why we are uh switch you to the judges and we are not. i think we should not need. yeah. should have an issue on the public opinion. one second just i want to say the last minute of the bbc reports at westgate by a west syria, andre american or mr. a. and she said it's all about radio with this comes from this. the kids are going without disturbing you. i had before in few days and it's again, so did you see it's administered meant for each other again, it's not impartial. yeah. well it is, it is is already owned by the u. k. government language that is majority owned by the u. k. government. so you can expect these wrote off predictable narratives.

alarm is data international affairs research or an analyst. joining us live from the algo all. gov, i beg your pardon, enjoy yourself. we'll speak to you soon. thank you very much and i thank you for joining us today. for this program live for almost good us so much striking of the world today we are back the top of the the hello and welcome to the part russian military operation in ukraine of those 2 markets. first anniversary having done our cadence,

millions of lives on both sides of the conflict engine before and after. how well do the protagonist understand the child, their motives and goals and with the damage already inflicted is any reconciliation even possible? well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by geoffrey roberts, professor emeritus of history at the university college court. roberts is great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thanks for the invitation. as you pointed out in one of your articles at western media are still awash with the theories and narrative. so what was on vladimir put his mind when he authorized this incursion into your brain. but according to you, they all missed one important factor which is put into the apocalyptic vision of a nuclear on your brain, imbedded in nato. what do you mean by that? and do you think that vision as apocalyptic as it may be? i have any grounding in reality. what was the describe that the purchase decision

to go to what would you try as a decision to try the type of preventative? what right, to prevent the continued build up of the nature ukrainian on. ready is on rushes, rushes boulder. yeah. so his basic perspective was the that filled up. why don't the media read off french or russia and read or long? so what would actually represent an existent, you read russian highs, view these arguments any, any set this by the time. and again, since sense of all the guy was the, a rush out to try acting to the group. i that sprint now because it was big data problem will be the great side of the situation. be western russia in the future. a spoke to that, that's that, that's basically was a little but, but in the process leading up to the decision. um, if there's a particular monument, which i think might have to purchase calculations the paper will because okay,

so as a mover, it will say, well there was distract, we need to like we like it, we need to way to prevent people. but obviously it was pretty, very risky. dangerous. um, uh, advertisements like huge defeated coaching somebody winters this particular moment they thought they could the munich security conference that mid mid mid february with west lift gate makes the speech of the kind of friends that you knew. crime, we're quiet new nuclear weapons. and this is actually the comment on, in the west of breast as no denunciations. but what's the size of the fact that the policy of oklahoma proliferation is supposed to be a uniform policy as endorsed by old international organizations now? or has a rubber as you also argue, that we can believe that he was backed into the corner by the west and to recognize that fact that you know, he didn't have many great options was not to endorse his perception or not to approve the war as a policy, but simply i'm need to decide for the meeting to the fact also requires some degree

of analysis off of the western policy because uh, pushing your nuclear armed adversary into the corner is hardly prudent. oh, why do you see any appetite for this kind of reflection in the west, especially given in the disaster as uh, consequences both for your brain and to some extent for the european union flip uh, as you know, as you store it as a, an accommodation on the international test, i see my site, my function is to try to explain what, what's coming on to, to explain people's motivations. right? and that's, that's what i'd be interested in relation to, to, to, to and then the rest of the decision to, to attack of ukraine. having said that, as you've indicated, that doesn't be site that i accept pollutants russian. oh, and i agree with these calculations. i don't, i all right for the very beginning, i thought a post of war and i continue to post what i think need to when we're having these

discussions, we can travel or the full from the discussions that gives you a pretty clear view about what's going on what you, what the consequences or actually just thousands of people being killed or wounded that ukraine has been devastated. there is a, you know, my other daughter read all the risk, the names and torture is every single day, thousands of ukrainian soldiers and russian soldiers died on, on the, on the front. so we need to as far as i'm concerned, the war is, is all started and needs to be brought to the names. i see that says search. so the soon as possible, you transferred me over to the can i can i stop here here for just a 2nd? because i think this is a very important juncture because when, whenever i have these discussions about security and morality, they're always sort of, intertwined in

a way that is very difficult to make sense. because i don't know a single human being. who would say that war is a good thing? there is no one who approves a hor, i'm sure projection itself doesn't improve a war. but why don't you come to matters of national security of morality and ethics and you know, they, and they don't always play along with the the printer all the test of mander and chief, i wasn't his also the moral duty of any commander in chief british commander in chief, an american commander in chief that russian from under age of or ukrainian one to defend their country if they feel that as essential interest of being threatened to it. so this also tomorrow, duty of citizens to actually judge the political agents and their decisions and their consequences is tomorrow, due to all outside observers like me to, to, to, to, to, to design my judgment is that, that, that decision was wrong. that other possibilities of what we solve the problem is pitching, so i was still present drugs. i don't,

i don't see that i reach the edge of the road too much again. so that's my ultimate is the purchase unit, continue to pursue the part the part of the policy. now, he said the bus i disagree with previous decision to go to law doesn't mean to say that i blame him entirely for the will. i get it once as it is due to small without decision, without projects that will be no more in your boss. but all of us have responsibility to situations low rough printing. uh no. i pulled the trigger out, was when he was the west, that loyalty discount, but by his night. so you tried new military, build up and brush as bold as it was ukraine, but, but we've used the term for meant that means we make story against $0.05. that what we buy it without the development of this competing top proxy will up between russia and the west. now uh your role before that hit from put into a port elliptic perspective going to warren ukraine. so bad in your brain to stop

this country from becoming another. nathan breach had, was not a difficult decision to make. and you have the russians didn't make that decision in 2014. they didn't make that decision in 2020. and even in 2021, having a mazda is very sizable contingent on the border with your print. put the engage just in the last round of diplomatic talks with his american come to, pardon, it was a violent which unfortunately left nothing. i assure that we should refuse, indeed apocalyptic. i would even say biblically apocalyptic visions. are you sure that it was not a difficult decision for seem to me given ever thank you, sad about the russians and the ukrainians being you know, essentially one people in his view i makes not to difficult decision for him to make even what he believes the situation so it's a situation to be that that's what i was trying to uh to, to get to that a relation to that. so that particular point,

but you're right, you mean you quoted what pushing didn't to, didn't go to. ready warranty 1000 faulty angie, issued from industry, strong and tremendous statesmanship. right. which was actually so disappointed when he didn't continue down the path of sites which i don't think that's true. the roberts to what i mean. the policy for the sake of diplomacy is the ruler 5. i mean, ultimately the diplomacy should serve some practical goal. yeah. what else could he have done to uh, you know, make sure that the rushes concerns not only listen to but actually taking into account because, you know, it doesn't get higher the meeting with the american counterpart of the machine saying essentially, well, you know, we will do what we will do i, i feet deep roughly. okay. so what we're talking about is the less than the response to the russian security proposal. so to step up twice for $21.00. yeah.

yeah. i think actually that had been some progress in those negotiations. i think you recall when punch in the be february, i had a conversation with laptop. you said lever, well, where are we? oh, is it a different market mode? and like i said, no this, that there's still hope we should still continue with these with these because the size of trucks. and i know i said that that perspective items that the tennessee was actually achieving some results, right and not be able to solve the sub results. there was a possibility of more results in the future rather than i just talked to you and to minister of foreign minister level 4 minutes to the roof is not responsible for the security report folio. and he doesn't receive the, the security and briefings that president receives. so, you know, a manual food is in a circle. many people with input ends in a circle were shocked and afraid of this action, as most of us here in russia, because it is inconceivable. for many russians build up, we wouldn't be in war of,

of our ukrainian neighbors. but at the same time, uh, you know, i, i bring back the, that's the question, what kind of a negotiated outcome would you welcome and do you think would, how to, uh, sort of turn the, the courses advance in some other and more positive direction. yeah, i do. uh okay. we can, we can offer you just point back and forth. brett, uh i, i would just like to put use this actually. i think that i could see what he knows now about, well actually happens as a result. what position did they advertise, the consequences of the kind of what he's had to fight? i think that he was, he wasn't comfortable. i think he was, he was decided that a lot prudent course of action would be to continue with the diplomacy. at least for least slightly lease for awhile? no, no, no, no. he says i would say that he's be very consistent in saying yes,

he recognizes the consequences. it after he takes responsibility for it. i still think it's the right decision by suspect that actually um yeah, i had a crystal at the end of february 2022. i don't think he would have been. he was taking this decision decision for but anyway he, he has to have this was looking question. i was not arguing retrospectively about what might happen whether diplomacy could have succeeded with his calculation was the correct one um a lot with the key issues. what happens next steps is how do we actually, how, how does this will come to an end to a secure piece of the way repair relation between russia and the west. another company they live and those are actually very good questions. and uh, your role in the prior to this operation who didn't have the reputation for being a realistic and pragmatic decision makers, perhaps to print magic so that the sum of keys uh, wasn't counterparts believe that he would never take

a kinetic military action to defend the country's interest, but judging from your current understanding of his pragmatism and use your best judgment on that, not none of us have crystal balls here. how far do you think his vision uh, off a goal, this costs and means of this operation go. what do you think she sees, or what do you think would be in russia's best interest? uh, as far as the end of this operation is concerned. yeah. hockey. okay. the printing started this war secretaries look the pollution is also going to be the person that ends this for right. if, if the west and if the ukrainians ability to actually, to, to, to the gulf shrikes on the, on the, on the serious, serious, serious basis. i say no problem and discuss what we think about. we can know what speculate about what might happen. but i also think we need to or it's us actually . okay. especially like list also for what we'd like to happen. what do we want, right from one time from now, i want to watch come to an end,

as soon as possible. be realistic about it. so the territory is occupied, but by, by russia will remind paul of russia. and i won't be actively you probably to get security to, to be neutralized, which is it brought to interesting, but i also wanted to get security currencies copy. i did request massey by how slow reconstruction. i'd like to see your current becoming a magic member. be you, if not lights up, i'd like to see a whole series of a completely different system of security and you know, to, to, to get that to, to develop in your okay. so that, that's my tongue, like in transportation are about how we can read the book. okay. not the realistic problem that read probably what happened, but it was more likely it's a very slight, messy as to the war in the form of the, you know, some kind of a, c, r b. well, some pool. the 1st present conflict,

which would be what we might say present. so that's, that's a, that's a very long well professor roberts, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station, the or the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to was a partner with jeffrey roberts, professor emeritus of history of the university college court professor, rubbers before the break, we were talking about possible solutions and your very expensive christmas wish

list for, for ukraine and europe and the everybody else, which i think we agreed on not very is not very realistic. but speaking of a pros and cons, like what i'm hearing a lot of from the russian uh thinkers, and observers and even decision makers, is that they, they, they are strongly disappointed. and in fact, angry by the way, the whole, the conflicting procedure, the piece talks have been exploited by the ukrainian and the western side as a means off a supply more weapons to ukraine as a means of training the ukrainian military, but not as the as something that they actually committed to that is a trying to institution, jenny and piece. do you think it because you are an admin observer and i think you are trying to be a fair in this process affair. observing this process,

do you think the russians contrast the west or the ukrainians with any other negotiations until they accomplish what they deem is necessary for their security goals? no, i think the, the tree is on the west. they're going to be forced into a sofa and, and some kind of a piece that's meant by russian military success. some of the rest of his when he was slowly, but surely, i'm not sure what foam or russian yeah. ready sorry to say a few kind, he's got guns to try to feel comfortable between catastrophic, a thoughtful for the week. right? supposedly come through this time, have nothing in the circumstance, then there will be credit use and which will be forced to negotiate. and i think also in that kind of circumstances that you know, your voice is the west side, myself. ok. it's a piece talk in the western restore. i often use the same kind of deal and i'll say uh, i think those voices. ready will become become stronger, but yeah, but not even in the kind of like

a rosy scenario with the christmas list because i probably do that would be a very risky lease agreement for russia to up to people given, given what's happening to deal with the mistrust. a given drug to the grievance prep broken promises, but i think the russia is going to, that is a huge was going to war. and the rest of these are gonna have to take another huge risk in actually ending what might be some, some content based. and actually in that respect, yeah, i didn't put the list or vice leave to go late that are right. pragmatic russian apache, politically, it's like she might that stand up that kind of do so in what i'm kind of expecting, you know, despite some of like putting to reason the incentive search when, when we get to the site or some kind of see thoughts on kind of a piece of basic room and i believe i do. okay. i can be facing the street uh

somebody told me or storage or research. reputation about that i'm convinced is that the ability will be prepared to treat somebody compromises with your price and we to west. i have to say no doubt about that. but that you yourself road that uh any idea of. 8 a peace settlement with their current leader in the kremlin would be absolutely repugnant to ukraine and not only through his leadership, but perhaps also to its wider population. is there anything that the thing that the westwood offer and provide for ukraine to make these the, all these very bitter deal a little bit sweeter? well, the pressure point. yeah. the deluge this laura's continued to so long to stay because of less than simple for you credit the credit department on by using kind of what fi i have to cite a surprise me surprise everyone probably surprised themselves, but they probably be able to to fight it slipped content as well because all west and simple to wesley grows. it simple, resist that, that ukraine,

these guys based negotiations. that's what's gonna happen unless of course you get some kind of it. so no lot people in ukraine which breaks to pass on to late alternation is on the nazi government. that doesn't, those was what was the most, what's coming? so what's kind of topics? yeah. so okay. yeah, i mean you, ukraine is west of purchases will be right, katie and storing the tools piece negotiations. but i think in the doc is what he's going to happen right now. i know that you are the one of the world's top specialist and style in and not many people know that the problem of your premium nationalism was not the, as i was not dealt with even by styling. i mean, he tried very hard, but he didn't succeed. in the ukrainian nationalist were hiding in the forest and burglarizing neighboring communities well into the 50 is low after

a silence on death given the size and the attributes of ukrainian. the ask for us abroad in the united states and the united kingdom in canada and many other countries. i think it's pretty clear that the ukranian factor will remain a factor of facility for 4 years, if not decades to come. do you think though it's going to be a problem just for russia or do you think there and they will come a time when it will become a western problem as well? because look, for example of the chechen problem in uh, in, in australia and the european countries, you know, if used to be a russian problem. now it's a widespread security problem for the european union. and the same happens with the other supports for national lumens or religious moments. do you think sooner or later the, the west will have to confront the ukrainian problem itself. but i think it's a probably for, for both restroom and the rest of the present time. you crank cheat, wesson's, right? it is very,

very nationalistic. but as far as i can say that these 3 much less than they are not since the alters then not the majority of the economy. i'm returning and talk with the georgias. but they, as you know, in both of the majority within the russian population and they have, they managed to turn the russian history in the direction of the because because my also because they also had a huge base of mass popular support available. i had tenure of support from abroad by the way, with us as long as she could get by the way, we can discuss the history another time i, you know, i think the over one majority of ukrainian sleep will actually reconcile, reconcile, reconcile themselves to pace on either i don't, i think just because this has to be held hostage, but then in the office he felt trash just me. i'm feeling i would try to do the actual date either. we just and he kind of come from us, any piece pressure, any any and so and, and will,

and he lost territory losses. but i remind you we commit. so be able to succeed in the political likes to solve it from relatively optimistic that your, if that can be a piece, the good that, that it can quite, you know, we're rapidly developing for the 9 piece roll with an unstable and threatening situation. i have to say, i'm grateful to you for recognizing the day of the russian leader, and i think the wider russian population feels when they they see all those new knots and marshes and symbolism in, in the ukraine. and it's hard for us to understand why would the west be so nonchalant about that while they're prosecuting the use of swastika know the swastika, but the sort of him do is and symbols use for positive connotations. they do not allow these kind of symbol is be displayed at traditional kinda ceremonies, but for some reason in ukraine. uh that raises very little. are very few ios. why

is that? well, let's go back to the other discussion about 2 to motivation. yeah. because basically, decision for was a strategic calculation. both is usually called was his perception of this what you cause an anti russia ukraine development with this, with this ultra nationalist, russell phobic. um it influences an anti rush. you can buy a site which was crazy, which was the west, was perfectly happy to go along with them support winter clothes as well as to, to give it to you. so let excuse. abuses of power is repression of opposition. politicians to the suppression of russian ethnic monarchy speakers. all of that might not congress the, the russian orthodox church, as you may have heard. and that's an anti russian combine. this beginning on each side, you cry for at least since 2014. but of course when, when, when savanski is elected president,

you find somebody that was out of that situation, try to go like, with this impulse off of the progress of them. so you kind, you know, did you would replace reconciliation there be some kind of a settlement of delta you credit you up your credit costs, but that didn't happen. the allowed himself to become prisoners of the out for us, he refused to negotiate that wouldn't commit the documents, agreement secret time warner, blah stridently, nationalistic, 90 russian union. so, so, so let everybody hope so. lensky is turned out to be a shift is also, if you find the country, one of the biggest is aust, as of 8 foot foot for your client. i want to ask one last question as a historian, and i'm sure you know that the russians in particular, the russian president have the most respect for history. i mean, they, they treat history not as some of you know, like filtered into attain themselves or, you know, to lie down uh on a couch with a history book. rather, it is taken as

a field that directly informs domestic governance and foreign policy. and historically, as i'm sure, you know, most security rather devastating security threats that took millions of lives of my countrymen came from the west. do you think that perhaps the russians have over invested, or perhaps the west has under invested in history as a basis for strategic decision making the time on record. this is actually side. i could do pictures of buddies store and then many professional. gotcha. use the historians. um yeah, he takes tremendous entry, interest of the state. it pretty much. yeah. shapes is perception. dispatch is the full historical or references. oh yeah. so history. sorry. um. yeah, yeah. the problem is that your, the west doesn't have the ship. it gives you, if you still have a very different gifts, every every,

all right. all of you already back painful view of history. all the restaurants kind of the name that's the was doesn't share. she's in 40 or 50, isn't the way of saying that there was simply doesn't care about the case there are, doesn't know as well. no. no, that has to be wrong. no, no, no, they care about history base. there is a portion of history. oh yeah. that is completely different from which is obviously cookie sees himself as the russians savior, doesn't it? yes of that. yeah. it is part of a kind of long tradition of, of russia rather than negative, single getting to subscribe to some notion of, uh, being a savior. i'm in here, you go to that position to do good for your people. what else? i wasn't usually to to the picture. typically what was going on to the side is it goes to the list of beauties, completely different, but you saw me the perception of most russians right or possession. what i say him septic tight that i say able to a new hitler. i mean, peers and stuff that you're just driving the history of that very distorted truck

kind of completely wrong at the street in but, and by yourself, you know, we have possibly georgia by some perceptions. we have a class use of historical perspectives as well. well, in russia, in sir referred to as the politics of memory and it's, it's very troubling that we cannot then agree even on historic events anymore. but i'm grateful that we still can have these conversations. professor roberts, we have to leave it there, but it's been great pleasure and great honor for me to talk to thank you very much for that. thank you. i'm thank you for watching hope to hear again from the was a part of the or the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the post office or the picture of the united states supplies clustering munitions to claim the russian on the 4th will be forced to use similar weapons against the crating and all the forces at top was from shaw, who are right there at the rushes and defend submitted. the ones that must go will respond in caught, in different key of deployed us, supplied fossil munitions. i think that over 26000 ukranian troops of died in the 12th account for offense. the nato summit and bill news,