you use calculation was the correct one and i of locked it to do the key issues. what happens next? yes is how do we actually, how, how does this will come to an end to a secure peace? how do we repair relation between russia and the west, another company they live and those are actually very good questions. and you wrote the power to this operation who didn't have the reputation for being a realistic and pragmatic decision maker it perhaps to print matic. so that the, some of his uh watson counterparts believe that he would never take it cannot take military action to defend the country's interest. but judging from your current understanding of his pragmatism and use your best judgment on that, not none of us have crystal balls here. how far do you think his vision of a goals, cloth, and means of this operation go? what do you think he sees, or what do you think would be in russia's best interest? uh, as far as the end of this operation is concerned, yeah, hockey. okay,

let me put you started, this will see continuous look the pollution is also going to be the person to enter this for right. if, if the west and if the ukrainians ability to actually to, to, to the go show on the, on the, on the serious, serious, serious basis i say no problem and discuss with what we think about. we can know like speculate about what might happen. but i also think we need towards us actually. okay. especially like, let's also feet what we'd like to happen. what do we want, right from one time from now, i want to want to come to an end as soon as possible. be realistic about it. so the territory that is occupied but by russia will remain paul of russia. and i won't be actively you probably to get security to, to be neutralized which is brought to interesting. but i also wanted to get security guarantees copies. i it requests massey by a slow reconstruction. i'd like to see your current becoming remember d,

u is not night. so i'd like to see a whole series of a completely different system of security and you know, to get that to, to developed in your okay. so that's my kind of like, think transpose the scenario about how we can look. okay. that'd be realistic. that, that problem, that, that probably what happened, but it was more likely it's a very slight, messy as to the war in the form of a, you know, some kind of a ccr be loops. well, some pool, the 1st present conflict, which would be what we might else like frozen for us. it's a very long well professor roberts, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station. the

take a fresh look around is life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by tell us to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images present? it is, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the

the welcome back to was a party with jeffrey roberts, professor emeritus of history of the university college court professor, rubbers before the break. we were talking about possible solutions and your very expensive christmas wish list for, for ukraine and europe and the, everybody else, which i think we agreed on not very is not very realistic. but speaking of a pros and cons, like what i'm hearing

a lot of from the russian uh thinkers, and observers and even decision makers, is that they, they, they are strongly disappointed. and in fact, angry by the way, the whole, the conflicting procedure, the piece talks have been exploited by the ukrainian and the western side as a means off uh, the supply more weapons to ukraine as a means of training that you're creating and military, but not as the as something that they actually committed to that is a trying to institution, jenny and piece. do you think it because you are and i, the observer and i think you are trying to be a fair in this process. a fair observer in this process. do you think the russians contrasts the west or the ukrainians with any other negotiations until they accomplish what they deem is necessary for their security goals? no, i think the, the, the tree is on the west is going to be forced into sci fi. and then some kind of

a piece that's meant by russian military success on the rest of his when he was slowly. but surely, i'm not sure what foam or russian. yeah. ready sorry to say a buick on these guys, guys try to feel comfortable because catastrophic. a thoughtful for the week, right? supposedly come through this time have not been in that circumstance. then they will be credit use and west will be forced to negotiate. and i think also in that kind of circumstances that you know, your voice is the west side myself august. the piece talk is the western restraint . all people, some kind of deal. and i'll say uh, i think those voices. ready will become become stronger, but yeah, but not even in the kind of like a rosy scenario go with the christmas wish list because i find you that would be very risky. basically, i'm up for russia to up to think about, given what's happening to deal with the mistrust. a given drug to the grievance,

prep broken promises. but i think the russia is going to, that is a huge was going to war. i think roughly, we still cannot to take another huge risk in actually ending what i might do some, some content based. i'm actually in that respect. yeah, i need to do this, the right need to go late that are right. pragmatic, rational apache, politically. it's like she might that stand up that kind of do so in what i'm kind of expecting, you know, despite some of like polluted to reason, the incentive side when, when we get to the site, because sometimes these thoughts on kind of a piece of basic room and i believe i do okay, i can be facing the street. uh, somebody told me, oh i started or research reputation about like i'm convinced is that the property will be prepared to teach somebody compromises with you price and we to west. i have no doubt about that. but that you yourself road that uh any idea of. 8 a peace

settlement with their current leader in the kremlin would be absolutely repugnant to ukraine and not only through his leadership, but perhaps also to it's wider population. is there anything that the thing that the west could offer and provide for ukraine to make these the, all these very bitter deal a little bit sweeter? the pressure point. yeah. the deluge the slowest continue to sudden longer stay because of wisdom, support for you credit the credit department on by using kind of what fi i've decided, surprise me, surprise everyone probably surprised themselves, but they probably be able to to fight the slip content as well. because all west and simple to wesley draws that simple resistance that ukraine is a guy. so basically, calculations that's what's gonna happen unless of course you get some kind of it. so no lot people in ukraine which breaks to pass on to late alternation is on the

or not. so you come the disney knows was what, what, what's most, what's coming. so what's kind of topics. yeah. so okay. yeah, i mean you, ukraine is west of purchases will be direct katie, and streaming tools, police negotiations, but i think in the thought is what he's going to happen. now i know that you are the one of the world's top specialist and style and, and not many people know that the problem of your premium nationalism was not the, as i was not dealt with even by styling. i mean, he tried very hard, but he didn't succeed in the ukrainian nationalist, were hiding in the forest and burglarizing neighboring communities well into the 50 is long after a silence on death given the size in the attic, she was off your premium. the ask for us abroad in the united states in the united kingdom, in canada, and many other countries. i think it's pretty clear that the ukrainian factor will

remain a factor of facility for 4 years, if not decades to come. do you think though it's going to be a problem just for russia or do you think there and they will come a time when it will become a western problem as well? because look, for example of the chechen problem in uh, in, in australia and the european countries, you know, if used to be a russian problem. now it's uh, widespread security problem for the european union. and the same happens with the other supports for national lumens or religious moments. do you think sooner or later the, the west will have to confront the ukrainian problem itself? i think it's a probably for, for both restroom and the rest of the present time. you crank cheat, wesson's, right? it is very, very nationalistic. but as far as i can say that these 3 much less than they are not is the alters, then not the majority of the economy. i'm returning and talk the charges. but they, as you know, the bolshevik the majority within the russian population. and they have,

they managed to turn the russian history in the direction of the because because my also because they also had a huge base of mass popular support available had tenure of support from abroad by the way, with us as long as she could get by the way we can discuss the history another time i, you know, i think the overall majority of ukrainians lee will actually reconcile, reconcile, reconcile themselves to pace on either. i don't, i think just because this has to be held hostage. but then even though it's, it's not too much just me, i'm feeling i would try to do the actual date either. we just any kind of compromise, any piece of pressure, any, any and so, and, and to any last territory losses. but i reminded me commits they'll be able to succeed in the political, i'm sorry, if i'm relatively optimistic that you know, if that can be a place yet, that, that, that it can quite, you know,

we're rapidly develop into the 9 piece roll with an unstable and threatening situation. i have to say, i'm grateful to you for recognizing the day of the russian leader. and i think the wider russian population feels when they they see all those new naps and marshes and symbolism in, in the ukraine. and it's hard for us to understand. why would the west be so nonchalant about that while they're prosecuting the use of swastika know the swastika, the sort of him do isn't cymbals used for positive connotations. they do not allow these kind of symbol is be displayed at traditional came to ceremonies, but uh, for some reason in ukraine. ah, that's raises very little. are very few. i chose why is that? well, let's go back to the discussion about 2 to motivation. yeah. because basically, the decision for was a strategic calculation. both is usually called was this the section of this what

you cause an anti russia ukraine development with this with this ultra nationalist, rustic phobic um it influences an anti rustic on by a site which was craig, which was the west, was perfectly happy to go along with them support winter clothes as well as to to give it to you. so let excuse. abuses of power is repression of opposition. politicians to the suppression of russian ethnic monarchy. speakers, oil that com, the, the russian orthodox church. uh, as you may have heard of that and not as an anti russian complaint is to be going on inside you crying for lease since 2014. but of course when, when, when savanski is elected, president, somebody that was out of that situation to try to go that day with the support of the progress of them. so you probably know, did you would replace reconciliation there be some kind of a settlement of delta you pregnant, of your credit cross. but that didn't happen. he allowed himself to become

prisoners of the out for his, he refused to negotiate, to commit the documents, agreement secret time warner blah stridently, naturalistic, on anti russian union. so, so, so let everybody hope so. lensky is turned out to be a shift is off of your point. i'm probably one of the biggest is almost as of a foot point for your time. i want to ask one last question as a historian, and i'm sure you know that the russians in particular, the russian president have the most respect for history. i mean, they, they treat history not as some of you know, like filter into attain themselves or, you know, to lie down uh on a couch with a history book. rather, it is taken as a field that directly informs domestic governance and foreign policy. and historically, as i'm sure, you know, most secure it this rather devastating security threats that took millions of lives of my countrymen came from the west. do you think that perhaps the russians have

over invested, or perhaps the west has under invested in history as a basis for strategic decision making? well, the time on record is, is actually side. i could do that too, as a petty store and then the money professional actually use the historians. um yeah, he takes tremendous entry, interest of the state. it pretty much. yeah. shapes his perception. do you know the spaces for the historical or references? oh yeah. so history, sorry, um yeah, yeah. the problem is that your, the west doesn't have the shit if you, if you still have a very different gifts to every, every um, right. of you a very bad thing, phone view of history, all the restaurant, the, you mean that's the was, doesn't share, she's in 40 or 50. it isn't the way of saying that there was simply doesn't appear positive or doesn't know as well. no, no, no, no, that has to be wrong. no, no, no,

they care about history base. there is that option of history. oh yeah. that is completely different from policy cookie sees himself as be a rush is safe yet, doesn't it? yes. yeah. but he did in east poverty, a kind of a long tradition of, of russian russian mega. so dedicated to subscribe to some notion of, uh, being a savior. i mean, here you go to that position to do good for your people. what else i wasn't using the word method you originally was style to the.