those we have look, renee he is an independent journalist. all right, gentlemen, crossed up rules in effect, that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciate it. you know, it's all over the news. it's a big deal. it's the most important, someone nato has had, you know, since forever and all that. but when you look at the details, okay, fine, there's something called a map. you know, it's a for you trying to get into nato. what other countries had to do to except for finland suite and they were exempt. okay, we could talk about that, but this is like, this is a slippery path because you know, this exemption, it doesn't get in demand that they have political reform. routing out really deep seated corruption and it really just says, you know, inter operability, they will buy weapons from american arms producer. so, mean the outcome american producers. and it's asking ukraine to be maybe a little bit pregnant to your thoughts. we, i think nato summits in general tend to be a bit underwhelming. there's a great deal of fostering and narrative, but a little in the way of bold, meaningful change that the big news story right now,

of course being that turkey dropped its off position to so we can join him. but in terms of ukraine, the cap receive membership even by and acknowledge that out loud. so what 10 nato do for ukraine? well, nato expected the where to go much differently, better for ukraine, worse for russia, and that has not happened. so nato has little in the way of tangible options, except to continue the 3 broad categories of the 1st, of course is military assistance. the western weapons and targeting intelligence have been the life blood of the war effort for a year and a half for ukraine. but the west has little left to give, and ukraine has dwindling manpower. so nato can continue to supply some weapons and ammunition, but likely lesser and both on quantity and quality. and none of this will alter the outcome of the war in a perceptible manner, and the same is true for the western intelligence and the staff planning a slight favor russia. the 2nd broad category is money. so enormous infusions of western cash are the only reason that the nato will likely continue to provide some

financial assistance. but again, this has no real impact on the result of the war. aside from continuing to keep the government afloat, and the 3rd category is promises. so i would expect more of the same platitudes out of the summit, you know, stay the course for as long as it takes things like that. there might even be some sort of that at the end of the war they might allow ukraine to join. the problem, of course, is that this is hollow, russel launched in special military operation in part to prevent ukraine from joining the alliance. so the idea that russia would allow a conclusion of the war that would lead to ukraine joining just seems not very likely jo. k j, a guy, i'm really glad lee gave a excellent summation of all the most important points. and i mean, if you really take a step back, this is this nato, his way of keeping them more going. they just want to keep going. because out of all of that, the, the ink that has been spill. no one's talking about an outcome of this conflict,

and that is it, since they're not talking about an outcome, it is why they keep pursuing your thoughts in san francisco. you're absolutely right, nato has a vested interest in keeping this going. as we know from the get go, this idea was to be as, as much damage. and so they're looking at protracted war. i absolutely agree that also on russia's and it has an interest in keeping the board going. if there is going to be any promise that to that, that you create with join at the conclusion of the war. so there's some deep contradictions built in to. busy this pastor and we have to notice is that at the same time that nato is pastoring and increasing its rhetoric the same time. we also see that it's making maneuvers towards expanding into asia. most notably allays on all of the pieces that we have to watch. we already know

that nato has i t p p in uh, you know, uh, yeah, personalized plans of relationships with multiple countries. and i think the next thing that we have to watch out for is nato going to seek to expand into the eto. has grand ambitions, that's for sure. the door is always open. okay. except for the countries they deem to be threats or they create as threats as they did in the case of russia, needlessly look, i mean it's, it's really interesting. i mean, you live on the european continent. it's obvious the by the administration doesn't want that ukraine in nato because then that would be obligations towards a ukraine. so they don't want it in, in, in the alliance. they want this war to keep going. they want to be immigration problem, migration problems to continue doesn't bother the americans, the economies of europe, contin. it's a good deal for the americans. look as a citizen, white proxy know young americans all the battles the this,

the ukrainians. answer the question. some done. so is for mr. blinking repeated it a few weeks ago when you said that you was for the continuation of the the date of been sent me one, james baker, and all the minister of foreign affairs. the secretary of state of thomas promised to go by job that may tell will not move when the age to get to the german maybe st presence of thought or i'll do, i'll put it in his name was a french minister. no american promise. and i mean, since this is incredible to day and for are preparing your brain for this coughing, and it is a publication of total provocation, which doesn't see you because we have very good propaganda. you know, price here in here. well, i actually wouldn't say it's good propaganda. i mean, i think during the cold words a lot more subtle, it's about subtle. it all the things. it's very curious, you know, and talk to you about this. um, it, it is, you know,

nato is about security of its members countries, but they don't want to talk about you pay in europe and security. and that is the problem here and extending the alliance isn't going to create security actually in security. and that is the greatest security of others. lee, go ahead and i found, so yeah, i agree. so during the cold war, nieto was created specifically to counter the soviet union and its eastern block allies will after the cold war, that reason vanished. but not only did nato continue to exist, it expanded and conducted out of area operations and most importantly, offensive operations. as we saw 1st in the were on serbia 19 or care, a defensive alliance to an expanding office of alliance. that clearly does not contribute to stability on the continent. okay, well, uh, exactly and, and uh, take a, there was this concept during the cold war was developed during the, what's called the helsinki process is the indivisibility of security. they never

use that term anymore. it means that one country can increase its security at the expense of another. everybody agreed to that they don't anymore. go ahead and san francisco. yes, i mean, this is fun dimensions. any notion of security is that you cannot increase your security at the expense of my or somebody else's security card by putting play more mines on my bumper is because that makes me feel more secure. so this notion of individual security, which is foundational fundamental to a, a saying that rational world order has been incomplete. if we look at, for example, the chinese proposal on the ukraine, a political settlement for the ukraine. they talk about this process. it's the 2nd clause in the position paper, but certainly from the standpoint of nato and the standpoint of the united states as it manip completely gone out the window. yeah. and look at the, the aim of, of,

of, of nato, under the leadership of the united states. is not to protect the crane, but to destroy russia. that's another fundamental flaw. this organization. luke, a lot of the tubes. clearly since 2014, we've seen that and the on the industrial limited complex of the west is, is incredibly, you something couple beneficiary of what happens because the european so fine, poland, for example, or germany american weapons. right? not your p. o, the french tribes sell where i fall and i'll change the date. they called him. and the problem seems to be not, i mean, you know, it's cash. you know? so lensky says it's $3000000000.00, you know, a week of dollars a week that the great needs you to kind of follow suit, you know, mrs. fatherland, ask for 50000000000. you're and i, you have the bed, pupils and the golf like this,

the organ saying we are the boss, this is volunteer like we call a. so this is the next problem for the um, from nature and for the friends of you. right? yeah. but locally, be, you know, dealt with donald trump, who can complain that the europeans wouldn't payment. but to be your point here is that they, they want the europeans to pay more. but to buy american arms, do i have the calculation? correct is, is this what happens? you know, the pass code 5 the amount of complaints, but like germany with paul, i'm going to try to you very probably it's probably part of the, the deal that got striking billions. so i'll get some, it's something which is which is incredibly bad for here are incredibly bad because of medicare at the same time is the strong to conquer new markets. they will lou and for what they, what does it, does they want to conquer new markets in having an a for another forever war?

i mean, the, the ask in griffith came to an end and nope, no coincidence. you create a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the nato summit in building estates with our team . the, the, the russian states never is as tight as one of the most sense key not set up the in the 65 with the keys 195 and speed. the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on the russians to day and split the ortiz full. even our video agency,

roughly all the services which, which of these people even closer to the i'm afraid this so that the possibilities will continue. dates and then we may expect to the escalation. because i don't see any sincere demand for peace in your vision. i don't, there's no piece of that. let me do some oversight, but that would be more sections introduced. i could, i already saw you decided to keep up. this was in the interest of us, i ministration simple the nuclear bomb up. she was

supposed to do it from the schools. if you look on the initial do, while of course, significant dealer post on zillow, while the deal was getting used to do the oil change. but he also still was done the newest for a government belief system that you guys, the thing is the bus is the little gear, little dice and says this done both of the computer all about your mind. you were discussing the nato summit and build this the media and again, the build up the propaganda build up to this summit. here. i'm actually very

confused because i keep talking about the future of the future of the ally and to cut the terms and conditions for a membership for ukraine and so forth. but you know, we're not even close to there. i mean, we don't even know what kind of ukraine is going to exist. it's a, it's borders. we have no idea. we don't know what kind of economic strength it will have. we don't have to be. we have no idea is, is the european union good? it forever pay for a rump state. i mean, these are all valid questions. we indeed, they are the 1st i, i don't believe you know that i, i agree with you. i agree with you. yeah. yeah, i don't believe by that. i mean, i don't believe russia would ever allow it to happen, as i mentioned earlier. but within this context of the hypothetical, that western leaders continue to propose of this post or ukraine and what they're going to do for it, and rebuilding and membership and various western alliances. i think it is noteworthy that the parts of ukraine russia controls now and is likely to control

at the end of the war comprise most of the countries ged, including its heavy industry. so whatever is left, actually, agricultural nature, the girl probably will have to rely on uh, western need. so i agree with you. okay, just in case they say the same question too, because there are there all the i come across these conferences about investing in ukraine. is that what, what ukraine are you talking about to? okay? and if, if the, the outcome is, is at odds with weight and so likelihood that the conflict could continue. who wants to invest in an environment like that, go ahead in san francisco. well, they're really talking about investing in war. you know, the language about investment, ultimately it boils down again as we pointed out before, to the military industrial complex. and so this is, you know, and it's crude, a small one, a military keynesian isn't it, is the military is the only part of its industrial capacity, which is still functioning on the high level. it wants to add that up even further

. it's also doing its outsourcing to india, korea and japan. and so what, once again, what we see is this preparation of a military industrial chain that is creating a kind of enclosed set among its vassals. and then it's going by states, it's extracting the value from that continued process of murder and violence. yeah, it look, if i can tap into your experience, being a european living and part that a little less than 50 percent of poles. poles, a poland, one ukraine in nato. well, i mean, poland, one of the hard liners in the european union and nato here. what is public opinion in europe? i mean, is it essentially the same? my point is there is a democracy deficit here. who were the people ever asked about this? as they were never all the defense of poland and the rest of your full and isn't

about office and are in the sense that they have for the, with the, with rush of the cause of, of the whole, the good in the case. and in the centuries in the pasta were conquered 4 times or 5 minus spot by russian. so that is a hatred in and from a problem that will not be all separately immediately. the rest of your lesson st say in germany, the pacifist people want against the small want for sponsor, you know, position the a b, which is now at 21 percent is very much against the water ukraine. they want this to stop it. now they don't want any more military equipment coming from. jeremy wants to build factories to, to assemble, belong, how long they would last and the direction, not my sites, but um, it is the same across, you know, it is a launcher position. that is now silent because call told about it. so

it's sort of been to, to, to come from the defense of russia and, and all the issue a few crime. you cannot. and most of politicians shut up the survey, but really the population that people never voted for. netflix after that officially because never an issue during elections. and um, uh, it's a real problem. it's lee. it's very interesting here we can throw in american domestic politics for a 2nd. i mean, you have to, well known a candidates running for the presidency, bobby junior and donald trump changed and everyone in washington is wrong. that's my opinion. but it seems to outside or is that are saying different, different things and they have get a lot of traction. quite interesting. don't you think i certainly do. and it's something that i've seen play out in many different instances, and that is so people on opposite sides of the spectrum are at as quote which is to

say with the establishment x. exactly. or some people talk about this for a few theory, not such a big fan of that. but what i think is there's stuff that is a kind of enrich themselves at the expense of others and largely run things into the ground. so there's just widespread dissatisfaction among those who are not a part of that. yeah, it's very interested in k to it's a was taken off of youtube where on rumbled though another pod phone came back. i mean, they, they, they don't, they don't like any of, you know, i think you have to understand this as a kind of a hybrid warfare. the information warfare is key. and for example, you know, in standard baffled doctrine, before you send to the infantry, you send in a cover, and you send an artillery to suppress fire so that you can send in your infantry. it's the same process that happens, but on a higher level before you start

a war or while a war is going, you also lease activism, any resistance toward and so this information ward is literally a way of suppressing any to send any resistance, any of any challenge to the notion onto the justification of the war. so this is what we're seeing right now. the information warfare is the pretended and the sub genetics, the mention of this ongoing war. yeah, but look at, we've seen that happened in, in europe, but so physical consequences of what's going on with the economy in europe because of the conflict. and you know, you can propagandized all you want, but germany is the industrialized. and you can't fudge that luc. from and um, the press thoughts talking about and they didn't for a long time, there's not a stop to fact that the, the image or the german industry for example and industry in other countries. but especially germany like the capital, the street that needs

a lot of gas and they don't get any stuff, get it by the way, 15 or 20 on uh through the brotherhood by plan oh, through ukraine. thanks to ukraine. no problem. and too touchy to the soft trying to to the balkans and then i'll going into austria. so it's not that simple and you cannot replace these by the m and g for my medicare most mediately, we need 500 more ships to transport, but allergy that haven't been billed and it takes it's very, very expensive. and american doesn't give us a favor by giving your opinions, so a better price for the gas. so it's really the minutes blaine to america, the likelihood squares of saying you should make an effort to reduce the price of your gas. so we have a technical issue, energy for industry in europe, and a good solid and worsening of now because of dropping off and buy will have again

ryan's and the price of oil and gas. because so for lack of gas with the winter, you li, prepared for another forever war. i mean it's, it's really quite amazing. you know, i, in the wake of the iraq war, never again will never let this happen again. but it does, it's a pattern. it continues to happen over and over again. i think so. the american public doesn't want another forever war. the question is, what can they do? and it seems to be very little because let's remember russia is prosecuting a proxy war against russia and ukraine as a matter of policy. and that policy is decided by the people who are in charge. and we get very few other alternatives. when we go to the valid, ok, because the party systems generally prevent level to 2016 of course was a huge exception. people didn't expect trump to make it that far. but by controlling the options, such that policy makers can really kind of go on as they want,

without consequences, has been the order of the day for quite some time. and i can't say it's really interesting is that russia gay to the hoax, a blood into policy, and it's really field on this, the immunization of russia. and it actually is worked for the leads just as we just pointed out. it's never on the ballot box, but it's always implied and went from foreign policy to domestic policy. go ahead in san francisco. you're absolutely right. i mean this entire russian gate of fremantle and it not only serves the domestic political purposes, but it's the foundation under which is the implicit foundation under which this war is waged. russia has been a friend to the united states. it's been a fred, to europe, etc. of course, all of this is, you know, propaganda. the event of the world is the united states. currently, the united states is the country that is the industrialized in europe. and we have

to understand this war and not simply out, but also as a way of keeping europe under vassal status to the united states. it's really quite interesting. i mean, obviously, you know, you don't, you never want to be an enemy of the united states. i mean, there were countless more z uh, in the last 60 years, but being americans says, well, apparently we can ask who luke and brussels are due to verify that for all of us gentlemen, we've run out of time. i want to thank my guest in charlottesville, san francisco, and in brussels. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. a next time. remember, trust not the the, [000:00:00;00]

the, with the discovery of the new world, at the end of the 15 centers, there appeared atlantics laved re, the slave traders from european countries started building fords on the western coast of the african continent to transport the african inhabitants to america to be forced into hard labor until the middle of the 17th century portugal headlight. the main role india said processed business been great britain, france and the netherlands took the leadership for this fan of 400 years of lead. about 17000000 people were forcefully shipped across the atlantic. not including those who died on the way due to unbearable living conditions. modern historians estimate that for each slave ship to america,

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the robot must protect this phone. existence was on the, on the toner, it'll see skit they see, they will see skin out of the go with the that you said those us that was movie on is zacko. go on that they're not showing interviews for it up and you're not ish. what full state tax and yeah just showing you for about john long would love to go just talk to little. you should see those sheets of the go. there's a little us here is it goes now the sales custom brands here was the months here. i'm a photo skin, she was of the you know, and about the show and 2nd most to go to court order. sure thing. it's been collab most i usually it comes to from the, from the, to the 30 year old. but when you get a mind for sure was to play catch to try. yes,

for kind of gotten any concept people to revise your saves the the, the, the, this is a strong message, political message, strong political message, that would be a stronger message for me. they don't have hostile to message to ukraine. fake would replace a road map to membership has been a so some is in billing. yes. please. ukraine disappointed and not being offered