the, the guy, i'm afraid that the last 2 days will continue takes and then we may expect to the escalation because i don't see any associated demand for peace in your vision. there's no peace settlement, so let's choose to aggravate situation. ok, so you decided to keep up. this was in the interest of us. i mean the the the

hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle the day to some it didn't build. this is upon it's the only certain outcome is that ukraine will not be invited to join the alliance any time soon. in the meantime, ukraine is asked to sacrifice a young man on a promise that will probably never be kept. washington likes it that way. the cross walk in the nato summit, i'm joined by my guest, lead fletcher in charlottesville. he is an intelligence and geo political risk expert, as well as ceo of bt consulting in san francisco. we have, hey, jenn journalist, and in brussels. we have luke renee, he is an independent journalist. all right, gentlemen, cross pap, rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciated, lee, let me go to you 1st and charlottesville. you know, it's all over the news. it's a big deal. it's the most important, some of nato has had, you know,

since forever and all that. but when you look at thing, home, a map, you know, it's a, a process for, for ukraine to get into nato. what other countries had to do to except for thin wooden sweden they were exempt. okay, we could talk about that, but this is a, this exemption here is a, is a, is a slippery path because you know, this exemption, it doesn't demand that they have political reform. routing out really deep seated corruption, you know, interoperability. they will buy weapons from american arms producers. so i mean, the outcome is good for the west. good for american producers and it's asking, are you crying to be maybe a little bit pregnant to your thoughts? we, i think nato summits in general tend to be a bit underwhelming. there's a great deal of fostering and narrative, but a little in the way of bold, meaningful change that the big news story right now, of course being that turkey dropped its off position to sweeten joining. but in terms of ukraine, it can't receive membership even by and acknowledge that out loud. so what 10 nato

do for ukraine? much differently better for ukraine, worse for russia, and that has not happened. so nato has little in the way of tangible options, except to continue the 3 broad categories of a that is provided thus far. the 1st of course, is military assistance. the western weapons and targeting intelligence have been the lifeblood of the war effort for a year and a half for ukraine, but the west has little left to give, and ukraine has dwindling manpower. so nato can continue to supply some weapons and ammunition, but likely lesser and both on quantity in quality. and none of this will alter the outcome of the war in a perceptible manner. and the same is true for the western intelligence and the staff planning assistance. the facts on the ground simply favour russia. the 2nd broad category is money. so enormous infusions of western cash are the only reason the government in ukraine cannot be to provide some financial assistance. but again, this has no real impact on the result of the war. aside from continuing to keep the

government afloat. and the 3rd category is where at the same platitudes out of the summit, you know, stay the course for as long as it takes things like that. there might even be some sort of kind hearted, non binding pledge that at the end of the war they might allow you praying to join . the problem of course, is that this is hollow, russel launched in special military operation and part to prevent ukraine from joining the alliance. so the idea that russia would allow a conclusion of the war that would lead to ukraine joining just seems not very likely. jo. k j is, i'm really glad lee gave of excellence and i agree with them. but i can't tell you, i mean, if you really take a step back, this is this nato's way of keeping the war going. they just want to keep going, because out of all of that, the, the ink that has been spill. no one's talking about an outcome of this conflict. in that sense, they're not talking about an outcome. that is why they keep pursuing it. your thoughts in san francisco?

you're absolutely right. nato has a vested interest in keeping this going. as we know from the get go, this idea was to bleed russia and to cause as much damage. and so they're looking at protracted war. i absolutely agree that also on russia's and it has an interest in keeping the board going. if there is going to be any promise that towards that, that ukraine would join a at the conclusion of the war. so there's some deep contradictions built in to. busy this pastoring, and i think the other piece that we have to notice is that at the same time that nato is pastoring. and at the same time we also see that it's making maneuvers towards expanding into asia, most notably a liaison office into japan. so these are pieces that we have to watch. we already know that nato has i t p p and you know, uh, yeah,

personalized chips with multiple countries. and i think the next thing that we have to watch out for is natal going to seek to expand into the asia pacific? well, the and so has grand ambitions. that's for sure. the doors always open, okay. except for the countries they deemed to be threats, or they create as threats as they did in the case of russia, needlessly. look, i mean it's, it's really interesting. i mean, you live on the european continent. it's obvious the by the administration doesn't want the obligations towards it in, in, in the alliance. they won't be immigration problem, migration problems to continue doesn't bother the americans, the economies of europe continue to dwindle here. i mean, it's a good deal for the americans. look, a white proxy know young americans on the bicycle deal is the ukrainians. answer the questions. so it's perfect. mr. blinking repeated it a few weeks ago when he said that he was not for peace,

all negotiations. you was for the continuation of more. and if you remember the, the date of incident he got was february 9th, 1991, james baker and all the minnes stop, identifies the secretary of state of thomas promised to go. but chuck, good. nature would not move when the page to be in presence of guest to the german order. i'll do, i'll put it in his name was frenchman. it's the all american promise. and i mean, since this is incredible today, of course, since the past 14, they are preparing your brain for this coughing. and it gets this issue. the wish doesn't see you because we have very good propaganda. you know, price here in here. well, i actually wouldn't say it's good propaganda. i mean, i think during the cold war is a lot more subtle. it's about subtle at all anymore. right now. you know, lee, one of the things, it's very curious, you know, and talk to you about this. um, it is, you know, nato is about security of its members countries,

but they don't want to talk about you pan european security. and that is the problem here and extending the alliance isn't going to create security actually in security and think about security of others. we go ahead and i found, so yeah, i agree. so during the cold war, nieto was created specifically to counter the soviet union and its eastern block allies will not only did nato continue to exist, it expanded and conducted out of area operations. and most importantly, offensive operations as we saw 1st in the were on serbia, 1999. so when we compare the defensive alliance to an expanding authentic alliance, that clearly does not contribute to stability on the continent. okay, well exactly and, and take a, there was this concept during the cold war. it was developed during the, what's called the helsinki process is the indivisibility of security. they never

use that term anymore. it means that one country can increase its security at the expense of another. everybody agreed to that they don't anymore. yes, i mean, this is fun dimensions. any notion of security is that you cannot increase your security at the expense of my or somebody else's security. i don't get to protect my car by putting a claim on mine's on my bumper is because that makes me feel more secure. so this notion of individual security, which is to a, a saying that rational world order has been completely discarded. and so if we look at, for example, the chinese proposal on the ukraine, a political settlement for the ukraine. they talk about this process. it's the 2nd clause in the position paper, but certainly from the standpoint of the united states as it manipulates nato. a mutual security is completely gone out the window. yeah, and look at the,

the aim of, of, of, of nato, under the leadership. the united states is not to protect the crane, but to destroy russia as another fundamental flaw. this organization, luke, a teen was seen and the on the industrial maybe too complex of the west is, is incredibly, you something come up and show you what happens. because the ox, most, that the europeans of buying poland, for example, for germany, american muslims, right. not your p. o, the french stripes sell where i fall in all the things they take on the old. the rest is julie american. and the problem seems to be all right, you're is cash. you know that lensky says it's $3000000000.00 noodle a week of dollars a week that the great needs you to kind of follow suit, you know, mrs. fatherland, ask for 50000000000 euro. and then again,

50000000000 euro and now you have the bed pupils and involves your boss, mrs. palmer like we call pay. so this is the next problem for the um from h o n for the friends of your crime. yeah. but lo clevi, you know, the donald trump with can complain that the europeans wouldn't pay enough and, and then that's a fair argument. but to your point here is that they, they want the, your arms, do i have the calculation? correct? because it is what happens. you know, as far as the amount of complaints but like germany, paul, i'm going to try to keep any properties from the part of the, the deal that got striking billions. so i'll get some, it's something which is, which is incredibly bad for here. are incredibly bad because of medicare at the same time is just drawing our capacity to do markets. they will lou and for what they, what does it does they want to conquer new markets and having an for another forever

war? i mean, the, the ask in griffin came to an end, and no, no coincidence. ukraine came into play. gentlemen, i would have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the nato summit and building estate with our team . the, the, [000:00:00;00] the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just

a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills. and is it just as a chosen few sensitive? can you see through their illusions just to use the week monday or as cisco web shows or some are used to work, what's the weight and the email as well? since i put the put general put the most to terms of the rules on most of these, the windows of both employees unique us. usually the media is

looking as well as socially. when would you be to see it but not least agree that that was the welcome that's across stock. were all things are considered? i'm peter roosevelt. you mind you were discussing the nature of summit didn't build this the ok. let's go back to lee lee. i mean, again, the build up the propaganda build up to this a summit. here. i'm actually very confused because i keep talking about the future,

the future of the alliance because the terms and conditions for members and so forth. but you know, we're not even close to there. i mean, we don't even know what kind of ukraine is going to exist. it's a, it's borders. we have no idea. we don't know what kind of economic strength it will have. we don't have no idea what its population is going to be. we have no idea. is it a for a rump state? i mean, so these are all valid questions. we indeed they are, the 1st, i don't believe ukraine would ever be allowed into nato. that i, i agree with you. i agree with you. yeah. yeah, i don't believe by that. i mean, i don't believe russia whatever allow it to happen as i mentioned earlier. but within this context of the hypothetical, that western leaders continue to propose of this post or ukraine and what they're going to do for it, and rebuilding and membership and various western alliances. i think it is noteworthy that the parts of ukraine russia controls now and is likely to control at the end of the war comprise most of the countries g. so whatever is left would indeed be

a rump of it largely agricultural nature. deferral probably will have to rely on the western need. so i agree with you. okay, just in case they say the same question too, because they're all, they're all i come across these conferences about investing in ukraine and what, what ukraine are you talking about? okay. and if, if the, the out to wants, then there's always the likelihood that the conflict could continue. who wants to invest in an environment like that, go ahead and san francisco. well, they're really talking about investing in war uh, the, the, you know, the language about investment. ultimately it boils down again as we pointed out before, to the military industrial complex. and so this is, you know, as retains, you know, some of the united states also understands that it is the military is the only part of its industrial capacity, which is still functioning. and even further, it's also doing its outsourcing to india, korea and japan. and so what, once again,

what we see is this preparation of a military industrial chain that is creating a kind of enclosed set among its vassals. and then it's going to add that are even further with the united states. it's extracting the value from that continued process of murder and violence. yeah, it look, if i can tap into your experience being those i came across today a report that a little less than 50 percent of poles, poles, a poland, one ukraine in nato. well, i mean, poland, one of the hard liners in the european union and nato here. what is public opinion in europe? i mean, is it essentially the same? my point is there is a democracy deficit here. who were the people ever asked about this? they were never austin's goals and it's expanding to on isn't about office and are

in the sense that they have the feet with the, with rush of cause over the over the decades. and in the centuries and the pos that were conquered 4 times, or 5 minus spot 5 russian. so that is a hatred in, in bowling for, for actual or on a problem that will not be settled immediately. the rest of you, that's something to say in germany, the pacifist people out of numerous before a sponsor, you know, decision b a b, which is now at 21 percent is very much against the water ukraine. they want this to stop it now. they don't want any more military equipment coming from. jeremy wants to build factories to, to assembled. thanks in your credit. i wonder how long how long they would last. and um, it is the same across, you know, it is a launcher position that is now silent because call talked about it. so

it's sort of been to, to, to come from the defense of russia and all the issue of ukraine. you cannot. and most of the politicians shut off the so be let it, let him pass. the people never voted 40 different, accepted it officially because never an issue during elections. and um, it's a real problem. it's lee. it's very interesting here we could throw in american domestic politics for a 2nd. i mean, you have to, well known a candidates running for the presidency, bobby junior, and donald trump. uh, they don't agree with washington. everyone in washington is wrong. that's my opinion. but it's east too outside or is that are saying different, different things and they have get a lot of traction. quite interesting. don't you think i certainly do. and it's something that i've seen play out that is people on all very dissatisfied with the

status. exactly or pursue theory. i'm not such a big fan of that, but what i think is there's been a small sort of ruling elite, the club that is kind of enrich themselves at the expense of others and largely run things into the ground. so there's just widespread dissatisfaction among those who are not a part of that. yeah, it's very interesting, kasia, it's a, you know, i'm, i would say i was where on rumbled though and other platforms. i was banished from twitter and until e long came back, i mean they, they, they don't, they don't like any debate at all 0 debate. you know, i think you have to understand this as a kind of a hybrid warfare. the information warfare is key. and for example, you know, in standard bible doctrine, before you send to the infantry, you send in a crate to suppress fire so that you can send in your infantry. it's the same process that happens. but on a higher level, before you start a war or while

a war is going, you also want to suppress any piece activism, any resistance toward. and so this information ward is literally a way of suppressing any to send any resistance, any of any challenge to the notion. this is what we're seeing right now. the information warfare is the pretended and the sub genetic dimension of this ongoing war. yeah, but look at, we've seen that happened in, in europe, but, you know, there there's, there's a real physical consequences of what's going on with the economy in europe because of the conflict. and you know, you can propagandized all you want, but germany is the industrialized thing. you can't fudge that, luke for and um, the press starts talking about and they didn't for a long time. there's not a stop to think that the, the energy issue is essential for planning, industry, and other companies. but especially germany like the capital,

the street that needs a lot of gas and they don't get any stuff, get it by the way. 15 or 20 percent of our gas from russia, and through the brotherhood by plan oh, through ukraine, thanks to ukraine. no problem. and to talk to the soft spring to to the balkans and then i'll, i'm going into offer you cannot replace these by the elegy for my medicare most mediately. we need $500.00 more ships to transport, but allergy that will be billed and it takes to very, very expensive. it is awfully expensive and american doesn't give us a favor by giving get a pm to a better price for the gas. so it's really the minnes blaine to america, likely because saying you shouldn't buy your gas. so we have a technical issue, energy for industry in europe, and it's only worsening now because of dropping off and thought we'd have again

rise in the price of oil and gas because of the lack of gas with the wind. it lee is if the american public prepared for another forever war. i mean it's, it's really quite amazing. you know, i, in the wake of the rack or never again will never let this happen again. but it does, it's a pattern. it continues to happen over and over again. i think so. the american public doesn't want another forever war. the question is, what can they do? and it seems to be very little, because let's remember the us to not declare war on russia. it's prosecuting the proxy war against russia and ukraine as a matter of policy. and that policy is decided by the people who are in charge. and we get very a few other alternatives when they go to the ballot box. because the party systems generally prevent outside 2016 of course, was a huge exception. people didn't expect trump to make it that far. but by

controlling the options, such that policy makers can really kind of go on as they want, without consequences, has been the order of the day for quite some time. is that russia gay to the hoax, a blood into policy, and it's really field on this. the immunization of russia, and it actually is worked for the leads just as we just pointed out. it's never on the ballad box, but it's always implied. and it went from foreign policy to domestic policy. go ahead and san francisco. this entire russian date of framing has been very, very instrumental, and it's not only serves the domestic political purposes, but it's the foundation, under which it's the implicit foundation under which this war is waged. russia has been a friend to the united states. it's been a threat to europe, etc. of course, all of this is, you know, propaganda. the essential threat to europe into the world is the united states. currently,

the united states is the country that is the industrialized in europe. and we have to understand this war and not simply as a way to bleed russia out, but also as a way of keeping europe under vassal status to the united states saying, i mean, obviously, you know, you don't, you never want to be an enemy of the united states, i mean there were counselors more z uh in the last 60 years, but being americans friend is not in very good place as well. apparently, we get as luke and brussels are due to verify that for all of us gentlemen, we've run out of time. i want to thank my guess in charlottesville, san francisco, and in brussels. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at archie. see you next time. remember,

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