of the let's see, i is m k ultra a project involving the use of special drugs for military and political purposes. first on my done. and then in the training on a, i've shifted towards large scale technical trials that ongoing to solve any time soon. the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. nato failed to crane still again, another promise not kept. in fact, the military alliance has no intention of bringing calvin to nato. this is always

been the fox ukraine, as an after thought inflicting a strategic defeat on russia as always in the plan, the process of getting the nato summit. i'm joined by my guess. yon oberg in london is director of the swedish independence, transnational foundation for peace and future research in columbus. we have missed the winston. she is a political activist, as well as host of the miss the winston show warranty and t radio. and here in moscow we have mike jones, he is an independent journalist. all right, cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate yon. let me go to you 1st. there's so much we can say about this summit that was held in bill unless it was built. 4 covered extensively, it was a bost. okay. but at the end of the day, the 2 most important things to take away from it, not that of ukraine,

made it in or didn't make it in are conditions that can all. but that's all footnote, what really matters here is that this, some, it did not discuss peace and it did not discuss security security for all young. you know, it did, and that is not in the vocabulary of nato. i studied nato's because i, i wrote a book about it last year and why it shouldn't be abolished 30 arguments and i what went through all the documents. there's no consent to all that section on pieces, defends, and the terms what determines and defense and security. then it is pronouncing who is the enemy, or who is opponent, always a potential threat, such as china as population, say, post legs, it's not analysis. and it's a combination of others and never self reflection. so the web piece is not that, and it's not a defensive a lines in any academic, reasonably sustainable definition of that word. yeah, well, oh yeah, the,

it's primary mission. this is to stay in business. that's and stop goal is to stay in business. missy mcmann, essentially the same questionnaire because, you know, the, we've always heard to spelt and verbs ahead of nato. you are the rush. it has no veto. has no be what does, apparently it does have a veto. that's why this ukraine was not invited and never will be invited into the alliance. they are fooling themselves and that there is there scribes in the media just lie about it. go ahead in columbus. yes, i think that is absolutely correct. i don't think it's a surprise to anybody who's paying a bit of attention that ukraine has no chance whatsoever of making it into nato at this point. or at any point, i think that this is kind of a care that they're dangling in front of them on a stick in order to continue. i think that this is as doing a science one said that about afghanistan, the goal is unless we're not as successful, we're it applied then i think it applies now. and i think that the membership and the data was something that they are just kind of waving in front of ukraine in order to justify the continuation of using you. creating embodies as cannon fodder

for this proxy war against russia. and it's initially, it's really quite amazing that the political leadership in tab goes along with it. it's, it's really extraordinary, a sacrificing their own people. i suppose. the lensky and his crowd are paid very well. compensation is very good for these people. mike, let me go to you. i mean, when do we, we, they talk about allies when all the allies agree and conditions are met? you know, one, my friend. they are farther away from getting into nato than they were in 2008 when they were invited. as a potential invite and to be alive, they are farther away than they are in 2008. go ahead. absolutely the right. i'm gonna reach back to the united kingdom and ben wallace who echoed the us saying we can't have a new man, but in the middle of a conflict that would just import war into the lions. and it really baffles me how this was never considered before. has the lensky always worked into it because the

p a has been a catastrophic even the photographs, as the lensky just standing on his own, completely excluded from what's going on when, when we think about data, when the allies agree, when they've been able to agree in recent times they've been divided over a success that the stolen bug divided the cluster bombs now divided the key if and yet the headlines will read, that nato has been more united than ever. you only need to do a very quick google search. um, the minimum requirements for nato membership and the us state department itself and its archive explicitly states, there is no checklist for membership, but it does say we made it clear at a minimum there of 5 following requirements. number one, you members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity. you're absolutely right. that's not been existing in the crating for, you know, at least what 2008, if know 2014. so no ukraine has never had any chance of being in the nato by even

the in the us is own sort of requirements is a really sleepy. it's it, well, you know, it's, that's a very good point because they talk about democratic norms and rules based order, which does not apply to ukraine in any sense. yeah, and you know, one of the things it's very interesting is that they say that ukraine has to, when the war to become eligible to be a member. so what they lose the war, did they get to become a member? i mean, i don't understand the logic here young, can you figure it out? i think a lot judy is that if the war is the only game in town, so speed in, in they taught us towns and there's not a word about peace negotiations. these fire or anything else, reason level. then of course a movie you that by pumping in weapons down. i mean, nation and political support and good works. so that today, or you probably wouldn't be able to win over russia. i think the assumption is at night. and also it's very interesting now in historical perspective, to look at nato as being in various ways in ukraine,

basically is things i think 3 months after you have kind of been cameron independence thing. yeah. awesome. everybody in the west who knew anything about security, including a number of us on baset or to mosque out, including birds, who is now ca director. but was an investor and tons of scholars in the us. and europe have won the last 30 years. you can, we, you may, you may to expansion of nature which is against the problem is, is very clearly given to go by truck. but you can't do you crying because that means war. and now you had a couple of days before the room. you saw me, you had a bite and the same thing saying basically the same words. i mean, this is a huge blunder. they should never have done what they did in 2008, which was a response to letting me po attends a very concerned speech in the munich security conference. so i mean, they just have totally intellectual flaw. yeah. mysterious. it's really interesting

when you think about the censorship that's going on. of course, everyone knows like, for example, r t was taken off of youtube, but it is absolutely right ever since the end of the cold war, there's been a huge debate about expanding nato. but according to what one year ago in 5 months, you can't say that anymore. your app, you're getting to know a lot of trouble for i was originally banned from twitter for quoting brock obama on ukraine. i got the band for that. okay. so that it's really quite interesting is what you can, they were so there's a whole literature out there and but all of a sudden the last 16 months, oh there, you know it's, it's, it's, it's for both need to speak about missing. this is the times we live in. i feel bad at all. i mean, let me go to mr. here here in columbus. go ahead. uh, i mean, yes. listen the censorship industrial complex that has been completely out of control on a number of issues. this is just one of them, and i think that it is very telling, i think any time that you're not allowed to ask questions,

you should ask all of the questions. and i think that that's something that they have been able to avoid in this country. the propaganda machine is very powerful, very strong and very effective. i think a lot of people are, are willing and able to go along with whatever line that they're selling to us on the, on a host of issues. this one i think is a little bit different. i think that this one from the jump. i think a lot of people started to question it. they've managed to beat a lot of those people down through censorship. like with yourself and through other methods of, you know, kind of silence in people through algorithms and shadow banning and that kind of thing. but i do think a lot of people are questioning this narrative a lot more than they would have maybe in the past. i think post iraq, a lot of people are more skeptical when these sort of a situations arise. and i think that that's what we're seeing now. and i hope that continues and we, and we continue to see people uh, push back on this uh, sort of a narrative. yeah. mike, you know, the, let's think about this here. so i would say, hypothetically, ukraine wins the war against russia. then why does it need nato ok, why does it need to join in the lot? also, if you could crane most likely will lose this work. why would nato include

a country that lost the war against russia? i mean, i don't, i don't understand the logic of any of this here. go ahead, mike. you know, none of it makes sense as you, as you rightly said, but if, if they would win, well, how do they win? cuz those goal post, keep changing. i think biting and his lot was saying that nate, ukraine would have to retain crimea as a, as a sort of standard of, you know, restore the territorial integrity. and this has been sorting about a lot. so then if you kind doesn't succeed in restoring it's 1991 board is then it doesn't maintain his integrity. that for it cannot be a positive nate. so because part of the conditions as i understood them was that the country had to be in control of its borders. so you, obviously, you're right, they never make sense and let's just so, so remember how present page in distress about this expansion of nato with a key concern of the russian federation. an x is an existential security risk and the west, the media loss to him. but in short order, then we have these goals for sweden and finland to join finland,

being another encroachment up to the north. and then we have this talk of ukraine and suddenly celebrated the look how united we are. look how putin has shot himself in the foot. no, you've actually justified his exact consent and you've been so so strength. and the argument that nato has broken his promise as has been stressed it to go, which has a margaret fletcher being one of them from the u. k. who also showed good, but you have that not one inch east. well, so yeah, i mean, what is the future of nato? it's had a brick wall with the crane and you're like, and i think we're all in agreement. you claim will never be a member of that alliance rush. it will not allow it. that's why we have the complex there now young. and i think what they are doing now is to substitute the word minimum, which is very clear in the treaty with or not substituting. but i expand that into what they called palm those. and now i think 139500 is on all the,

you know, boss of the world. and, you know, they are thinking now planning to set up an h will office in japan all this. and i think this is an extremely important point. what they told dollars today is not in the photos with its founding treaty. it's in that sense and the legal activity outside on that started with the bombing of yugoslavia $99.00 added solidly. absolutely. well, what it is is it is the hang on hang on, we're gonna have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the nato. so i'm gonna stay with our team. the

release of russian states never as tight as i'm sort of the most sense community invest. nothing was all sense and the speed, the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin lydia mission, the state on rochester. d. s r t support tech team and our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the student services for the question, did you say steven? twist, which is the, [000:00:00;00] the

acceptance and i'm here to plan with you. whatever you do, do not watch my new show seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do i have the state department to see i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do, don't my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable . my show is called direction. but again, we don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way and say i'm afraid this to the last 2 days we'll continue takes on that we may expect to the escalation bill because i don't see any associated demand for peace in your vision. i don't, there's no piece of that, let me solve them obviously, but that would be most functions introduced to aggravate situation. and it said i

already decided to keep up. this was in the interest of us, i ministration. so the the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered. non peter le melcher manager, were discussing the nato summit. the okay, right before we went to the break, i was talking with you on your, on your, on our roll. so keep rolling, go ahead. i know i just said that it is from the bombing of yugoslavia 99. it has done the thing then the lions have done things that are not in any way letter of course ferry in with the, in its treaty, which is a very defensive un charlton based straight to the only difference from the un job

to is. but a's on to go 5 about, you know, you show the defense of each other inside the group. i could find that as, as a piece for the fact that tomorrow, the fact is that each breaking 247 its own provisions. and i would suggest that there shouldn't be established an independent international commission that looks change or lawyers and others who would look into how far can they to deviate from is a founding treaty. and what can be done about it. and if you're asking about the future, it wants to go global by means of partners, because it's running out of members in europe. and that's why we have to stop it. it simply has to be stopped by a popular movement in the west. another country is that, well, well, we'll say, we'll see how it goes. i, i don't, i think nato is days, are numbered. it's going to suffer a strategic tropic to speed in ukraine. it's the graveyard of nato, at least i hope so. mostly i don't, i don't want to get too legalistic or anything like that. but you, there's always this talking about article 5 of the,

of the nato tree. it's actually called the washington treaty. but, you know, everyone should read the article one of the treaty, nato con nato, as an organization, under its own roles cannot get involved in military complex using force. its members must use diplomacy and negotiations. nobody reads the 1st article and i'm going to agree with the mirror and complete violation of their own. and treaty go ahead, misty. indeed, yes, and i think that it's a how to smile there as you were saying that out loud because it's a curious to me that they don't ever actually follow that to it. i hope that you're correct and that this is going to be the graveyard for nato. i think that nato has it's long overdue for it to have been abolished. and we're, as we're seeing the situation in ukraine play out, it seems as if you may be correct. i think that you, they are going to suffer a very strategic defeat here. and it is going to be very difficult for them to spend that in a positive direction for nato. and i think that that is something that they are trying to contend with. now i think that there's probably

a little bit of panic behind the scenes. they're trying to figure out how they can best, you know, wiggle around in the situation and make it, uh, you know, it and, and kind of save face. and the best way that they can, i'm not sure how they do that at this point. they are now so far involved. there's no way for them to back out without looking silly. and i think that that's something that they're continue can be contending with now behind the scenes trying to figure out how they can make that play without in making fools of themselves with the box that play out. actually missy, i do have the, the, the wiggle room for them. i shouldn't even say it, cuz i know they'll steal it. you know what they're gonna say. let's see, i'm gonna tell you what they're gonna say in ways opponent didn't make it to parents. we was in the, although that's exactly, that's the, you know, room temperature i q of these people. that's exactly what they're going to do. but mike, you know, you know, again they were talking about with when the allies agree on the conditions when conditions are met. here we also have the g 7. yes,

they're still around now making trouble. they are talking about security guarantees as well. again, i thought that was, what did they have to do with the military, with security? i thought they weren't economic organization. okay. i mean, again, this is another fiction here to sell to people in the west, you know how to waste more money on a, on a loss cause go ahead might or yeah, yeah, absolutely right. the g 7, as i understood it with these economic members and powers that came together and discussed such things. so it baffled me when even zelinski himself said, or i, if we don't get nato membership, at least we'll get some reassurance is from the g 7. but we know that everything's been a big fight and nothing but really in regards to that, all the security guarantees it doesn't matter how you want to describe, but all these countries committing to the proxy war. and again, i'll refer back to ben wallace saying that we don't want to import war into the lions, and you have the same people of engaging in this proxy. well,

they just don't want it directly at them. so they're happy to attack rusher and facilitate the death of russian soldiers, but they don't want to risk their own, their own soldiers and people. this g 7 noticing is probably again where they're just gonna line up, take photographs and pass each other on the back and lots about how they've all invested in the right arms manufacturers. and that's, that's the economic side as far as i can tell. well it absolutely. yeah. also, yeah, let's talk about the issue of cluster bombs. i mean, again, rules based order and all of this nonsense they like to talk about here. that is a very dangerous escalation and russel rush. it doesn't start big, go up the escalation ladder, it usually follows that. it's gonna follow this one for sure. yeah. so it's part of modern militarism that do you see problems spell it with one and 2 in your tool box like a habit of that means whatever you're trying to do,

you're tapestry. it's pulling down your hammering on and then finally the warm results will come down. the idea that this whole problem can only be solved by web is i think actually. ready have a statement from mr. stockton back in the direction that piece comes with weapons or something. instead of, you know, sees fire negotiations, u. n. o is the media to mediation, etc. is, is just an indicative indication that this organization is out day to make. we don't meet militarism in this world and they certainly don't do it because they have 12 times more military expenditures and roger, what we need is corporation. what we need is not to waste money, but to solve the problem, to humanity as and do we, you know, reach out and accept that we're going to live in a multiple world with different cultures, different political ideas, different interpretations of human rights, etc. any for the us and it's friends and allies will not do that. they will lose or they've become a peri afraid that will become, you know, in the long run,

some kind of developing countries in the future world or 50100 years from now. well, not going to long time when we see his desperation and it comes to balance as an example of it. when you need to interview across the bombs and you're in, you're fine. you're really, you're really losing it. yeah, well, missy, well, i'm glad that you understand that because this is an act of desperation and desperate people do desperate things and i wouldn't put it past them. do do other things as well. i mean, it's all about maintaining had gemini, is what we have here is ukraine, is this the example? okay. do you think of policy makers in washington in brussels? give a hoot about ukraine. they don't at all. they want to give them as much weapon reading that their young young men to be killed in the battle failed and the result will be the same. miss. yes, yes, a 100 percent. i'm so glad that the word respiration was used because that is exactly what this is. i think that the united states and the west has like a wounded animal, backed into a corner and you're absolutely right. or government doesn't even care about the

people of this country and i'm supposed to believe that they care about ukrainians . it is absurd on its face. and so we're happy to use them as cannon fodder. many people in a high level, high positions of power. i've said that we will fight until the last ukranian. uh well, i mean that is a, that's a, it's a very brave and bold thing for you to say from back home. but i think that the people of ukraine are going to start to find that quite despicable. i find it despicable, the idea that we are using this country and its people, as you know, a weapon against russia is really despicable. and so i think that again, i think that they're starting to lose the narrative here. i think that they're starting to lose control. and i think that this is for sure and act of desperation . well, mr. you couldn't see it, but when you said the governments here don't care about their own people. the other guests on the program nodded their heads in a. okay, and i, i'm agreeing with you as well. oh, mike, it's really interesting how this propaganda war there is being fought. it's interesting how we have used as a lensky. i think they were a little surprised with those mean tweet. ok. because you know,

you say i've done everything you told me to do every thing and then you know, they make it down the alter, sorry, you're not the type of girl for us. okay. go ahead mike. yeah, i think he says, i have given everything on demand respects. and even so, lensky was smacked by again. ben wallace saying, well, ukraine should say, find you more often. subsequent to the comments, i believes lensky released the videos saying thank you know, less than 47 times in a video. it's really been well, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic this talk about yeah, fights and so the last ukrainian is, is chilling. at the very least, if i would just add in a statistic that i came across is 97 percent of those people killed by cluster munitions have been civilians. yep. these weapons are not effective on the battlefield. they are not suitable for the battlefield that, that being supplied to it is desperation to keep this fight going. because remember

we have the 2024 elections. i think the lights have jake sullivan, victoria new lens and all that desperate to just keep this going to 2024 and try and get another democrat in the white house. and that's where you ukraine and ukrainian people being sacrificed for. for what us, paula. take for, for a while, for what exactly what, what is the national interest for europe and what is the national interest for the united states? it's never explained. yeah, and i'm glad that mike brought up a bad statistic because given the nature of the regime and cab before the conflict, and now i'm talking about corruption. i really worry that these cluster bombs will be sold to various groups around the world, okay. they're not going to stay in ukraine. they're too valuable to the various forces. yeah. as well, that's the risk that the west has taken hold of time, but it's pumping in weapons into a country that is known for corruption as it can be. i mean, you talked about the split sand,

what will be the future of the airlines and the cost of own thing has been a split, and there is no un united most opinion about that. like a lot of other issues within nato is own leadership or leaders. and i think what, what, what we, maybe we shouldn't be so surprised because if you look at all the wars they, they, the u. s. has been leading or fighting the seems to be at the they've all been lost or left to withdrawal. so why should we be surprised that if you're creating chaos enough, k, as in ukraine, you leave because you might have gotten something else you're needed. the problem here is that the, we need some leadership in the western world but does not think of a war as and confrontation and sanctions on demon. i'd say sion and strengthening behavior and worse as the main kind of of foreign policy is totally outdated. as i said, i'm, i knew was an i stated at that time 30 years ago, pulled down late. so because it was all packed in the soviet union has disappeared

and that was advice on best, but that time of the alliance. therefore, the, the original data today of the lines is only one thing and one word expansion expansion. it has nothing to bring to the world any more. it's an out days. it may have been useful early. i don't know, but it's not useful for the future of the world that's well said, and that's all the time we have. i want to think my guess in columbus land and here in moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember cross lock models, the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the, take a fresh look around there's a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by tell us to do vision with no real live indians. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images present? it is, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can

the, the claims of the king of the belgians leopold the 2nd to the congo were finally authorized by the leading european countries in 18. 85 in the very heart of the african continent of state under the rule of the belgian monarch was declared. since the beginning, the congo free state was total, may have for the local population and functioned as a universal concentration camp. the majority of the population, including women and children, were forced to work on the rubber plantations. those who failed to fulfill their quota were beaten and mutilated. to keep the con, the least people under control, the king set up the so called forest bleak which were punitive detachments that cast terror on the captured country and its inhabitants varying that their subordinates would simply waste bullets hunting for wild animals. the officers demanded that the soldiers gave an answer for every bullet use, and as proof presented a job hand of an african. it was not uncommon when drying to justify the use of the

munition. the collin is to have a few days at the hands of not only those who were dead, but also loved those who were kept alive. the atrocious exploitation of the congo turned into a real genocide. you know, late 20 years, the policy of the belgians laid into the depths of nearly 10000000 people alongside the holocausts. the genocide of the congo population is considered to be one of the greenest pages in the history of mankind, the object sanchez, i've been doing news for 30 years into languages around the world. and here in the united states, interviewed for presidents, worked for the u. s. has major television networks, i believe there should be honest,