for you go as like change and whatever you do, don't want myself to stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time. but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way the mass general tendency, and welcome back to going underground broadcasting all around the world from dubai, in the u. a. what do you make of last week's nature? somebody seems, if you ain, you're a nation on the board with russia, which has a new limits partnership with china. well, perhaps today is 60 percent of us read the so called small boy nuclear weapons death north west. las vegas might be instructive with me now from washington, dc to someone who is said, unless the us proposed when

a new day award risk losing one for a deputy undersecretary of the u. s. navy talked to seth crops the president of yorktown institute joins me now. thank you so much that for coming on. i mean, they're just off and on. the bill in the is last week. i did it with some people. those are lensky was acting, acting up. i don't know whether anyone to of the data was going to lead me to create in the middle of a war and whether he was in fact, just uh, acting on the whether even nature membership is that important given that to, you know, present, leaving us. it would come to be a to japan, if it was boomed. may male members, uh, provided russia, where is an incentive to fight on by failing to agree on how and under what circumstances are most important when your grade would be admitted to nato. so that means that the signals trying to pull

is that uh, western resolve is uh cranking and that, uh is objective, can be to outlast the resolve of the atlantic alliance. and with a new grant. i mean, you're an expert in all or an expert in information warfare, cuz you, you know, directed editorial policy of the voice of america. that's certainly not how it's being reported in nato nation. media. the reporting, you know, likes to an ogre for as a stomach bug saying, look, i united it all is the reporting on bite. and so not from london. how wonderful everything is. why do you think there's a mismatch between what you just said and, and that will uh that somebody who is don't as you port it out with the, with the information,

i would choose an international scale. uh, it would be normal to expect what we saw a strong bridge saying, which is everything's ok. what else is he going to say? we're in disarray and we chatted bri up on forward course of personal. i don't know whether it will, of course, the state department to by surprise that that will be the effect on moscow as you see, if you began your 2017 books. the blind is with a quote from now saying that all imperialist states a week because their appetite is large, how over extended do you think that to the united states is now that a blinking state department. and david method zalinski has run out of ammunition. the political and military fact in ukraine is that the united states is uh, does not have any troops on the ground. and that takes off the cable. um,

the question of over extension uh, and it loads it. the over extension question to the defense industrial base, that is canada, united states, supply enough weapons to grade to defeat the rush, which i would not call out an example. that is not an example of low risk stranger . that's a question of the trends industrial policy and one that can be readily address address since we're talking about shells artillery. we're not talking about rebuilding battle fleets, which takes years to do um or rebuild the air force, which takes few years, but still time. so i don't see over exception here because some of the remark that the privatization of manufacture of munition and serve within the us is a, is

a uh element here to be considered. i'm sure you'll say if i listen to you years ago, they would have had the military industrial complex that would have had no problems applying the landscape the a defense industrial base as exist, good at the end of the cold or winter time. no problem. that's correct. but the assumption stated that on stated in the beginning with the, the drawn curtain on the cold war was that, that would be the, there would be, you know, history and, and a, and there would be no more great power conflict or emerging states that emerge to compete with the united states and turned up to the wrong otherwise consolidation among the major defense companies. and there was a continuing loss of secondary and tertiary defense contractors that do

a lot of the work for the majors. the best problem. and of course, the way the blinking, save the development is responded is by saying will supply cluster bombs, which is a band by other nato countries. some element of losing the propaganda war there. because of course, in the nato countries in europe, the issue of cluster bombs has now become a major issue as the of should, the europeans be supporting a war with cluster bottoms ascent for the loan, the what it means for future generations of ukrainians. i know the excuse given was one of the russian uses and then we're going to clear it up anyway. so what difference is more customs may oh yeah, it stays trans. offered to uh, to clear the pressure munitions of following the conflict. the gun rate is other words, the rate of unexploded munitions that can explode subsequently is far

down from what it was during the vietnam war. uh and yes, the um, the use of cluster munitions is uh, is a indication of a few grains needs. and that the, the rate at which they're burning up the military hard. yes to. yeah. i mean, i was talking about the, the information more rather than obviously the children of, in ukraine that may be bombed in future years, regardless of how much more efficient it may be compared to allow cambodia and vietnam. but can you already have exactly why this is exactly why it is a situation we find ourselves in. because of trustee know lends a policy of the car and america administration just to make haste slowly, as the one says. and so the more the,

the fewer supplies that the ukrainians need to come to the russians. a more problem of their, their, uh, their defense becomes. and this is all, could have this, all could have been avoided, the, the reliance on cluster munitions could have been avoided. we supplied the ukraine with the, with the weapons that they needed and asked for a year ago and had been asking for a change that using general millie should, should go as you, as you wrote before in the november last year, you said that the general mock village jim with the joint chiefs, his job should be replaced. your exact words way is a is strategic instinct. there is dim, is political ambition is a foliage in which i'm told means radiant. i haven't changed my opinion since last year. now. even though many more billions dollars worth of weapons have been sent,

are many billions of dollars i have not accomplish what the state and policy objectives of the administration work. and so that's the that's what you end up with. uh when you, when you supply a friendly country where is less than what it needs to finish the job. i mean, we invite general mainly to defend them self, but i could speculate and say that it's not him who's a the lead here it is the blinking the state department. and the policy is being made uh outside of the pentagon. well, uh, in general, amelia has made his opinions known in um, in all sorts of for around the, around washington around the country and outside the might of states. i think it's

pretty clear what is the opinion which, why did he want space talks? now? i think he sees the size uh um, as wasted effort. and you have no, no sympathy with the tool because in the polls ahead of next is us general election . of course, donald trump writing high with opinions that i get people to talk stuff to the fighting stuff to supply weapons. this war could be over tomorrow, i think is what the something like the trump said, there's been no national discussion of this. uh, probably binding is not as yet to go on television or to explain what the stakes are. a new thing that leaves open ground for the traditional american isolationist. uh and uh, if trump is not

a traditional american isolation, that she's not anything as well. so was that for the uh before uh, before things like go ahead of themselves. i might say uh, you mean campaigning, but s b r. but after your, uh, realize what was going on in europe and sprint, you know, the better part of the secondary ministration are in the country for war. will you be in camp? and as you said, they had, they didn't listen to you as they might have as regards preparing for another. we've been campaigning for reappraisal. u. s. military needs for 4 years. is it too late now? now that china has declared to know limits partnership with russia. i don't think it's too late. i don't see any signs of that. uh, the, the, the sensible policy would have tried the lessons of your grade to try one

of which is to say, instead of waiting until there's an attack, trying to deter one by doing the chinese what they need in order to defend themselves. now, not at the point that one sees infinity of ships gathering in, uh, in southern, uh, chinese, uh, naval ports. so you're against the kissinger doctrine. i mean, kissinger was prank protection, a recent fee where he admitted he didn't blame you. crane for the north stream. i don't know whether that means he believes side hush about the north stream attacks that they were by the ministration terror attack. you don't see that because inches dick's to him, that you do not fight rush and john and are the same time as true. i think it's wise to try to avoid fighting anybody of course, um and uh, even wiser or more imperative to avoid having to fight on 2 fronts at the same time

. who can disagree with that? it does is that scrub, see how stop you? that's more from before with deputy under secretary of us navy, the current president of the yorktown institute. after this break, the guy i'm afraid is that the last 2 days will continue dates and then we made some expects of escalation because i don't see any sincere demand for peace in europe. there's no peace settlement oversight, but there will be more functions introduced, aggravates situation and they tie, all right, so you decide to keep up. this was in the interest of us administrator the

the the the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here. we don't just have corrupt the president of your 10 institute informed

deputy undersecretary the u. s. navy. so he was saying that it's not good to fight on 2 fronts of aging. and let's go through any we had the so getting kind of gone of a rush, your advisor on the program. recently, he was curious at moscow should teach washington about the parents by using tactical nuclear weapons. i know you were on the record in the image of wall street journal for saying that the u. s. should show it can win a nuclear war. do you think he was reflecting your article or do you think? do you think there are people in the, by the ministration that alone in the food in administration? who believe that some sort of limited nuclear war is feasible and is the only rational option? has millions of dollars, weapons a port in and ukraine, the red line from russia that ukraine you enjoyed? nature was being crossed in a way in vilnius. well, of him, i'm sure. did you notice the same thing?

most of the rest of the world has noticed as well, which is that every time there is a either discussion all or the delivery of our show room missiles, shells. the airplane was, takes the infantry fighting vehicles, the boat and threatens uh, waves the new we are well, he would deny that he always says, no, that's off the table, but there are other people within the russian society who's saying yes of what he said on several occasions that this raises dark, the darkest questions about the rear ization of the war. um but uh, we got past the weapons that can deal with this and the west has to be careful because we need to tread carefully so on, so forth. but yeah, but uh, in fact, what we see is that there are 2 red lines here um

in this war, and they've been observed. i'm telling you, well, since the beginning and that is, but the ukrainians by and large do not attack into russia. oh, they did into bugs a ride and i don't know if there's a rush or considered to join yet supply the rush or not and cry me or in the village bridge. i said by and large, most of the other. and the other one is that the russians don't attack the delivery of western military equipment into ukraine, and that is still, those have held more or less the challenge since the beginning of the war. and so it hasn't gone nuclear. i think i'm not sure that's a good argument. is that because it hasn't gone new via yet?

we can proceed this the cause of this war as it has been being for this pasta. while the russians would say, since 2014 and the major would say since the february last year, surely that's not a good argument uses. you know, i think it's a good argument that the, that the biggest i, what i'm seeing so far, there's no reason to expect anything different in the future. and also, i think that proven, understands what the consequences of using the tactical nuclear weapon would be. first of all, there are good targets for uh, for a category will be wrapping in ukraine because they're not massed into the go world war to fashion their forces are not. i'm 2nd of all, it would bring nato together in a way that has not been brought together. well, it you, just like i said, it would bring nature's together. and i should say a tactical talk is it'd be, discuss all london, the administrator defense in london, for instance. because there are 50 special forces troops in ukraine according to

the direct, etc leaks even the shawnee. the point it is not that nature would be stronger together, it was united states that would presently say, look, we're going to do some kind of talking here a while you're up would be powerless to act. in any case. the last point i was going to make was that the consequences of a russian use of nuclear power to go look for your weapons. um are consequences that the face bike will and will not face. and we're like, what are they all sorts of options? i mean, uh, for example, here's a ship it fleet could go away. interest that you'd be driving, sorry to interrupt you, been writing about that. you favor a tax on russian infrastructure, black see ports, oil rail bases. you've also mentioned syria and the, the points and we'll talk. yeah. do you think ukraine uh, should extend the war to those base is modeled a stranger in the war. my point only is, but uh,

the kinds of wrench for a fulton of using a tactical nuclear weapon is, but a lot of the things that he got you would be at risk. i mean, surely that is completely against the idea of deterrence. theory isn't like a bench on each risk by conventional needs. right. and that certainly want to get kind of gone over his writing about and saying the response would not be necessarily new to you, but it would teach the one about your winters again. i don't, i don't think it would be but, but non nuclear does not mean it does not give you a free pass. there's a lot of a lot of, uh, a lot of damage that can be done with the conventional weapons and food knows that it's not for me. do you think that trump is not only getting uh, a lot of support in the united states for ending this war in another way?

it has let alone the billions being sent over is that he is making hey, out of the fact that bible's team depend against lloyd austin hills from raphael and blinking and michelle flores. he come from west exact, the defense contract to consult with the arrow haines, director of national intelligence, a is from the sullivan, who has links to ty, one it, it goes into the narrative of the trump narrative, which is, this is the swamp here that needs to be drained there will making future money out of this policy that pursuing in ukraine when, when peace should actually be pursued rather than, rather than future personal money. i suppose. all the dead bodies of ukrainian men, women, and children. and i would be very surprised. yes. uh, the people who uh, who is drunk should borders are aware and the connections that you just membership

. i don't think they are. that's the working classes of america. i would say, i mean you are the hudson institute. did you ever feel that there was that uh yeah, i mean obviously there's no direct pressure. but the way you write and think about conflict is influenced by the fact that say, raise your northrop loki, boeing, sharon and x one of funding the hudson institute. i know now i don't know who funds to your town, but do you see that these conflicts of interest exist when it comes to forging a strategy to benefit the united states? or for all the company use? same trying individuals who are writing on international relations on foreign policy and national security. i think the, the, the central problem is uh whether their views are influenced by

um, by that particular companies that uh, that they contribute to their think tax hudson for example. um, as large as highly supported a board of trustees and they are uh, extremely important in uh, in sustaining the the s 2 um and as for uh, whatever influence the defense contractors. uh, uh, i don't see it. um, what i see is that there's a confluence of interest uh, between people who are between analysts, experts uh former government officials who have a certain policy position and uh, corporations that share the policy interest. and if an individual goes outside that

then um i think choosing problem, but i don't, i don't, i don't see evidence of that. interesting to hear what the problems uh would uh be uh actually um if uh it would be, the problem would be if, let's say a uh, the manufacturer of a piece of, uh, uh, defense hardware were to offer a shrink guy for it as exact as an example uh, sponsorship in exchange for support about this particular piece of equipment and they need the, the they this imaginary think tank or imaginary uh, expert for it didn't think that that piece of equipment was particularly valuable or useful. right? um, okay, well we,

we don't have time to talk about the f 35 yet here. and that would be the, and that would be, you know, i was making no allegations there, i should say against those defense companies. but obviously it actually is the raise your own patriot ms. that is being talked about in the ukraine calls like i also going to ask you just find the about the, a relative sanctions in unity of countries is the ukraine conflict as big as dawson . and then rusher is a trading with the global south. everyone's talking about bricks and the rest of the world outside the or be in union britain in the united states. the war is being reported on very differently. but having said that, even there, in the capitals of the global side, they recognized certainly mean it to you in nature. why have you said there was a growing fisher in nature? and the nature is more brittle than ever. what, why, why do you see it that way when every day with all the nature of nation media that the opposite as well. uh, jeremy has been real good. they've been dragged into it kicking and screaming some

time either for the 1st time or the 2nd world war of their political divisions. well, yes, that's right down there during the recession. right. but the fact is that the german should've been politically divided over support for your grant. and my crew has been um on this uh, idea of uh, european leadership of the european military leadership in europe. although there is no foreign secretary there to uh, to direct it. um, so they been uh, and they also have a greater economic interest. uh, in many cases uh, to maintain cars rusher, especially germinate. so, and that is uh townford by the eastern, uh,

or with don rumsfeld called the new york or up the eastern part of europe, which has direct experience with what, living under roches thomas life. so that's a in all right, so that's the division. do you expect this war to end because of the war fatigue in western europe? we saw a civil, a civil disobedience, civil strife across the whole of fronts actually. and regardless of what macro is, switching one day to the other onto the train, and also in switzerland and holland. you see that the, the economic catastrophe approaching in europe may decide how long this war is going to go in before the inevitable. russia, u. s. summit that divides the country of ukraine. i can answer that question because it, it's really, um, it's part just a,

it's really part of spirit. good to look into the future. ah, i didn't tell you this, but this western resolve rates. and that will encourage and in the war if the united states ministration changes and trunk becomes president when the war uh, if americans don't vote for drum. and if by them becomes this is returned to the present and shape. uh, and he made to the more concerted and attempt to explain what the states are here, not only in ukraine and russia, but for the rest of the world of losing your train to the russians. then i think things will go well. but just briefly, either way, the war on china begins. then i think that the perception that the west

has has cracked on uh, on ukraine, leading to a, a granted defeat leads directly drawer in the far east interest specific. yes. dr. south causing. thank you. thank you. ok, and that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episodes until they didn't even touch by the social media results sense and in your country and had to our channel going under warranty. the normal don't come to what you and old episodes of going underground sees have the lease of the russian states never as one of the most sense community best most all sense and the

must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will fan in the european union the kremlin mission, the state on the russians to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say they requested the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. the only person.