around the world from dubai, in the u. a. what do you make of last week's nature? somebody seems, if you ain, you're a nation on the board with russia, which has a new limits partnership with china. well perhaps today's 61st anniversary of the so called small boy nuclear weapons death north west. las vegas might be instructive with me now from washington, dc to someone who is said, unless the us proposed when a new 3 award risk losing one for the deputy undersecretary of us navy dr. seth crops, the president of yorktown institute joins me now. thank you. so much that's for coming on. i been there just off and on the bill and the as last week, i did it with some people. those are lensky was acting, acting up. i don't know whether anyone to the data it was going to lead, meet ukraine in the middle of a war and whether he was in fact, just acting on the whether even major membership is that important. given that the, you know, present, leaving us would come to the age of japan. if it was boomed. may male members, uh, provided russia, where is an incentive to try it on by failing to agree on

how and under what circumstances are most important when your brain would be admitted to nato. so that means that the signals trying to pull it is that uh, western resolve is uh cranking and that, uh is objective, can be to outlast the resolve of the atlantic alliance. and with a new, great, i mean, you're an expert and all are an expert in information warfare cuz you, you know, directed editorial policy of the voice of america. that's certainly not how it's being reported in a to a nation. media. the reporting, you know, likes to an ogre for as a stomach bug saying, look, i united it all is the reporting on by and on. so now from london,

how wonderful everything is. why do you think there's a mismatch between what you just said and, and that will uh that somebody who is don't as you port warranted out with the, with information i would choose an international scale. uh, it would be normal to expect what we saw a strong bridge saying, which is everything's ok. what else is he going to say? we're in disarray and we chatted bri up on the forward course of personal. i don't know whether it will of go to the state department to by surprise that that will be the effect on most because you see, if you began your 2017 books, he blamed this with a quote from now saying that all imperialist states a week, because their appetite is large, how over extended do you think that to the united states is now that a blinking state department?

i mean, they admitted zalinski has run out of ammunition. the political and military fact in ukraine. it is that the united states is uh, does not have any troops on the ground. and that takes off the cable. um, the question of over extension. uh, and it loads it. the over extension question to the defense industrial base that is can the united states supply enough weapons to grain to defeat the rush, which i will not call out of the example. that is not an example of over extension . that's the question of defense, industrial policies and one that can be readily address address since we're talking about shells artillery. we're not talking about rebuilding battle fleets, which takes years to do um,

or rebuild the air forces which takes your years, but still time. so i don't see over exception here, because some of the remark that the privatization of manufacture of munition and so forth in the us is a, is a, a element here to be considered. i'm sure you'll say if i listen to you years ago, they would have had the military industrial complex that would have had no problems applying the landscape the a defense industrial base as exist, good at the end of the cold or winter time, no problem. so that's correct, but the assumption stated that on stated, or the beginning with the, the drawing, the curtain on the cold war was that, that would be the, there would be, you know, history of andy and there would be no more great power conflict or emerging, the states that emerge to compete with the united states,

which turned out to be wrong. otherwise, consolidation among the major defense companies. and there was a continuing loss of secondary and tertiary defense contractors, uh the, to do a lot of the work for the majors. the best problem and of course, the way the blood can save the developing does respond to it is by saying will supply cluster bombs, which are a band by the nato countries. some element of losing the propaganda war there. because of course, in the nato countries, in europe, the issue of cluster bombs has now become a major issue as the of should, the, the europeans be supporting a war with cluster bombs, assent that alone the what it means for future generations of ukrainians. i know the excuse given was one of the rush or use of them. then we're going to clear it

up anyway. so what difference is more or less the bombs may oh yeah, it stays trans. offered to uh, to clear the cluster munitions. uh, following the conflict uh then doug rate is other words, the rate of unexploded munitions that can explode subsequently is far down from what it was during the vietnam war. uh and yes, the um, the use of cluster munitions is a, is a indication of a few grains needs and that the, the rate at which they're burning up the military hard. yes. yeah. i mean, i was talking about the, the information war rather than, obviously the children of, in ukraine that may be bombed in future years, regardless of how much more efficient they may be compared to allow cambodia and vietnam. but you already have exactly why this is exactly why it is

a situation we find ourselves in. because of trustee know lends a policy of the car and america administration just to make haste slowly as the one says. and so the more the, the fewer supplies that the ukrainians need to come to the russians more problem of their, their, uh, their defense becomes and this is all could have this all could have been avoided, the, the reliance on cluster munitions could have been avoided. and we supplied the ukraine with the, with the weapons that they needed and asked for a year ago and had been asking for a change that you think general millie should, should go as you, as you wrote before in the november last year,

you said that the general mock village, jim with the joint jesus job should be replaced. your exact words way is a is strategic instincts, there is dim is political ambition is a foliage and which i am told means radiant. i haven't changed my attribute since last year. now. even though many more billions dollars worth of weapons have been sent many billions of dollars, i have not accomplish what the state and policy objectives of the administration work. and so that's the that's what you end up with. uh when you, when you supply a friendly country where is less than what it needs to finish the job. i mean, we invite general mainly to defend them self, but i could speculate and say that it's not him who's the lead. here it is the

blinking, the state department and policy is being made the outside of the pentagon. well, uh, in general, really has made his opinions known in um, in all sorts of, for around the, around washington around the country and outside united states. i think it's pretty clear what his opinion is, what he wants. peace talks now. i think he sees best of the, um, as wasted effort. and you have no, no sympathy with the tool because in the polls ahead of next is us general election . of course, donald trump writing high with opinions that i get people to talk stuff to the fighting stuff. the supply weapons this war could be over tomorrow, i think is what the, something like the trump said, you know, national discussion of this uh,

probably by that is not as yet to go on television or to explain what the stakes are. a new thing that leaves open ground for a traditional american isolationist. uh and uh, if trump is not a traditional american isolation, that she's not anything as well. so was definitely, uh before, uh, before things like go ahead of themselves. i might say, you mean campaigning, but s b r s t e r. uh, realize what was going on in europe and spend, you know, the better part of the secondary ministration during the country for war. will you be in camp? and as you said, they had, they didn't listen to you as they might have as regards preparing for another. what you mean? campaigning for? reappraisal of u. s. military needs for 4 years. is it too late now? now the china has declared to no limits partnership with russia. i don't think it's

too late. i don't see any signs of that. uh, the, the uh, sensible policy would have tried the lessons of ukraine to try want, uh, which is to say, instead of waiting joe, or some of the time trying to deter one by doing the chinese work they need in order to defend themselves. now, not at that, the point that one sees amphibious ships gathering in, uh, in southern, uh, chinese uh, naval ports. so you're against the kissinger doctrine. i mean kissinger's prank protection. he recently where he admitted he didn't blame you. crane for the north stream. i don't know whether that means he believes side hush about the north stream attacks that they were by the ministration terror attack. you don't see that because images dixon,

that you do not fide rusher and john under the same time as true. i think it's wise to try to avoid fighting anybody of course, um and uh, even wiser or more imperative to avoid having to fight on 2 fronts at the same time . who can disagree with that? the doctor said scrubs say, i'll stop you that more from before, the deputy undersecretary of u. s. navy, the current president of the yorktown institute. after this break, the 1934 france invaded algeria and straight away the french started inhabiting it to

strengthen their position. the column is known as the new ours, the best land from day one. the local population was put into an unequal position and was briefly exploited. this caused them as discontent. the people of l g area began their long term bite for independence. in 1954, the banner of freedom was raised by the national liberation front. a guerrilla war against the occupants broke out. the french tried to suppress, to rebuild you and using cruel measures. whole villages were wiped out acts of georgia and executions of civil people, including pregnant women, children and old people took place more than 2000000 people were born into concentration camps. however, these punitive measures didn't help. cl, jerry and patriots managed to induce france the start seize negotiations in 1962

heavy and the cords were assigned 14 algeria on the bass towards independence. but this was achieved at a colossal price. algeria by rights, is considered to be a country of martyrs. according to the calculations of historians, the french colonists are responsible for the depths of one and a half 1000000 algeria, the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here, we don't just have to grow up the president of your 10 institute informed deputy undersecretary the u. s. navy. so he was saying that today it's not good to fight on 2 fronts of aging. and let's go through any we had the. so getting kind of gone

of a rush, your advisor on the program. recently, he was curious at moscow should teach washington about the parents by using tactical nuclear weapons. i know you were on the record in the image of wall street journal for saying that the u. s should show it can win a nuclear war. do you think he was reflecting your article or do you think uh, do you think there are people in the, by the ministration that alone in the put in administration? who believe that some sort of limited nuclear war is feasible and is the only rational option as millions of dollars, weapons a port in and ukraine. the red line from russia that ukraine join nato is being crossed in a way in vilnius? well, of him, i'm sure, did you notice the same thing? most of the rest of the world is noticed as well. which is that every time there is a either discussion all or the delivery of our show room

missiles, shells of the airplane mistakes i the infantry fighting vehicles that poked and threatens uh, waves the new we are. well, he would deny that he always says, no, that's off the table, but there are other people within russian society who st. yes. where do you shut it on several occasions that this raises dark. the darkest questions about the rear ization of the war and but we have tactical weapons that can deal with this. and the west has to be careful because we need to tread carefully so on and so forth. but yeah, but uh, in fact, what we see is that there are 2 red lines here um, in this war, and they've been observed trinity well,

since the beginning and that is but the ukrainians by and large do not attack into russia. oh, they did into bugs a ride, and i don't know if there's a rush are considered to join yet supply the rush or the crime here in the village bridge. i said by and large, most of the other. and the other one is that the russians don't to track the delivery of western military equipment into ukraine. and that's hill. those have held more or less challenge since the beginning of the war. and so it hasn't gone nuclear. i think i'm not sure that's a good argument. visit that because it hasn't gone you via yet. we can proceed with this the course of this war as it has been being for this past. well, the russians would say, so 2014 and the major would say,

since february last year. surely that's not a good argument is, you know, i think it's a good argument that the, that the base our own seen so far. there's no reason to expect anything different in the future. and also, i think that proven, understands what the consequences of using the tactical nuclear weapon would be. first of all, there are good targets for uh, for patrick, a little be wrapping in ukraine because they're not massed into the go world war to fashion their forces are not. and 2nd of all, it would bring nato together in a way that has not been brought together. well, it, you just said it would bring nature together. and i should say a tactical talk is it'd be, discuss all london. the administrator defends in london for instance, because there are 50 special forces troops in ukraine according to the direct, etc, leaks. even the show me the point, it is not that nature would be stronger together, it was united states, they would basically say, look, we're going to do some kind of talking here

a while you're up would be powerless to act. in any case, the last point i was going to make was that the consequences of a russian use of nuclear power to go loopy or weapon. um are the consequences that the face like will and will not face and whooped like what? all sorts of options. i mean uh, for example, here's a shipment sleep or go away interest. so you'd be driving sorry to interrupt you, been writing about that. you favor a tax on russian infrastructure, black see ports, oil rail bases. you've also mentioned syria and the, the ports and we'll talk. yeah. do you think ukraine uh, should extend the war to those base is modeled a stranger to the war. my point only is but uh, the kinds wrench for a filtering of using a tactical nuclear weapon is. but

a lot of the things that he got use would be at risk. i mean, surely that is completely against the idea of detection. sphere is like a bench over each risk by conventional needs. right. and that's certainly what it's kinda gone of as writing about and saying, the response would not be necessarily nuclear, but it would teach the what about your workers again? i don't, i don't think it would be but, but non nuclear does not mean it does not give you a free pass. there's a lot of a lot of, uh, a lot of damage that can be done with the conventional weapons and food knows that it's not for me. do you think that trump is not only getting uh, a lot of support in the united states for ending this war in another way? a have let alone the billions being sent over is that he is making hey, out of the fact that vitamins team depend against lloyd austin hills from raphael

on blinking. and michelle flores, he come from west exact, the defense contract, to consult with the arrow haines, director of national intelligence a is from the sullivan cuz it has links to ty, one it, it goes into the narrative of the trump narrative, which is this is the swamp here that needs to be drained, they will, making future money out of this policy that pursuing in ukraine when, when peace should actually be pursued rather than, rather than future personal money. i suppose. all the dead bodies of ukrainian men, women, and children. and i would be very surprised. yes. uh, the people who uh, who is drunk should borders are aware and the connections that you just mentioned. i don't think they are. that's the working classes of america. i would say, i mean you are the hudson institute, did you ever feel that there was that to you?

i mean, obviously there's no direct pressure the but the way you write and think about conflict is influenced by the fact that say, raise your northrop loki, boeing chevron, and x on a funding the hudson institute. i know now i don't know who funds yorktown, but do you see that these conflicts of interest exist when it comes to forging a strategy to benefit the united states for all the company use? same trying individuals who are writing on international relations on foreign policy and national security. i think they, they, the central problem is uh, whether their views are influenced by um, by the particular companies that uh,

that they contribute to the same tax hudson for example. um, as large as highly supportive board of trustees, they are uh, strictly informed in uh, in sustaining the the s 2 um and as for whatever influence the defense contractors. uh, uh, i don't see it. um, what i see is that there's a confluence of interest. uh, between people who are between analyst experts uh former government officials who have a certain policy position and corporations that ensure that policy interest . and if an individual goes outside that then um, i think choosing problem. but i don't, i don't, i don't see evidence about are interesting to hear what the problems uh would uh be

uh, shipley. um, if the would be, the problem would be if, let's say a, the manufacturer of a piece of, uh, uh, defense hardware were to offer a shame kind for it as an, as an example. uh sponsorship in exchange for support about this particular piece of equipment. and the, uh, the, the, the, the, this imaginary think tank or imaginary uh, expert for it didn't get that piece of equipment was particularly valuable or useful, right? um, okay, well we, we don't have time to talk about the f 35 yet here. and that would be the, and that would be, you know, the fact that i was making no allegations there,

i should say, against those defense companies. but obviously it actually is the rape your own patriot ms. that is being talked about in the ukraine calls like i also going to ask you just find the about the a relative sanctions in unity of countries is the ukraine conflict as big as dawson and then rusher is a trading with the global south. everyone's talking about bricks and the rest of the world outside the or be in union britain in the united states. the war is being reported on very differently. but having said that, even there in the capitals of the global, so they recognized certainly mean it to you in nature. why have you said there was a growing fisher in nature? and the nature was more brittle than half a. what? why, why do you see it that way when every day with all the nation nation, media that and the opposite as well. uh, germany has been really good. they've been dragged into it kicking and screaming some time either for the 1st time or if the 2nd world war of their political

divisions. well, yes, that's right down there during the recession. right. but the fact is that the german should've been politically divided over support for you. grant. and my crew has been um on this uh idea of uh, european leadership of european military leadership in europe. although there is no foreign secretary there to uh, to direct it. um, so they been uh, and they also have a greater economic interest. uh, in many cases uh, to maintain cars rusher, especially germany. so and that is uh townford by the eastern, uh, or with don rumsfeld called the new york or up the eastern part of europe. which has direct experience with what living with under russians,

thomas life. so that's a in all right, so that's the reason do you expect this war to end because of more fatigue in western europe, we saw a civil, a civil disobedience, civil strife across the whole of front sexually. and regardless of what macro is, switching one day to the other on your train, and also in switzerland and holland, you see that the economic catastrophe approaching in europe may decide how long this war is going to go in before the inevitable. russia u. s. summit that divides the country of ukraine. i can answer that question because it, it's really, really part just a, it's really part of the spirit. good to look into the future. ah, i didn't tell you this, but this wester resolve breaks. so that will encourage and then to

the war if the united states ministration changes and trunk becomes president when the war. uh, if americans don't vote for drum and the binding becomes is, is return to the present and shape. uh, and that he made to the more concerted and attempt to explain what the states are here, not only in ukraine and russia, but for the rest of the world of losing your train to the russians. then i think things will go well. but just briefly, either way, the war on china begins. then i think that the perception that the west has has cracked on uh on your brain, leading to a pay you granted the free leads directly drawer in the far east interest

specific. yes. dr. south causing thank you. thank you. ok. and that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episode. but until they didn't even touch by the social media results sense and in your countries had to have channel going on are going to be on normal . they'll come to what you and old episodes of going underground sees after the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk

the the 2 people are killed on a girl is injured. following once destroyed, does an emergency situation on the trying me in bridge or traffic on the roots health being voltage also coming off on the program this, our washington gives the go ahead for european allies to train you trains pilots in using f, 16 fighter jets ts hydro offensive fails super fruit fighters from the part of military rapids.