in clerk, countries, while the car door itself meant only for we tech sports had been used by key if they say to launch attacks. previously, russia also set agreements to ease restrictions on the exports of its own grain and fertilizers, have not been at match. dimitri pest golf, by the way, also seeing moscow will return to the agreement once it's conditions are met. so that the news just coming in to us on or i to a former high ranking u. s. navy official, is today's gast, i'm going under broad. she talks nato's defacto rejection of kia on the risk of neutral or escalation in the new crane concept that's all ahead. stay with us. the

i'm action or time. see and welcome back to going underground will cost people around the world from dubai in the u. a, what do you make of last week's nature? somebody seems, if you ain, you're a nation on the board with russia, which has a new limits partnership with china. well perhaps today is 60 percent of us read the so called small boy nuclear weapons death north west. las vegas might be instructive with me now from washington, dc to someone who is said, unless the us proposed when a new day award risk losing one for the deputy undersecretary. the u. s. navy doctor says crops the president of yorktown institute joins me now. thank you. so much that's for coming on, i mean they're just not off and on the bill and the as last week, i did it with some people who has a landscape is acting acting up. i don't know whether anyone to the day that was going to lead me to create in the middle of a war and whether he was in fact, just to acting on the whether even major membership is that important. given that

to, you know, present, leaving us who would come to the age of japan. if it was boomed. mary mayo, members, uh, provided russia. where is that incentive to fight on by failing to agree on how and under what circumstances are most important when your grade would be admitted to nato. so that means that the signals trying to pull is that uh, western resolve is uh cranking and that, uh is subjective, can be to outlast the resolve of the atlantic alliance. and with a new brain, i mean, you're an expert and all are an expert in information warfare cuz you, you know, directed editorial policy of the voice of america. that's certainly not how it's

being reported in a to a nation. media. the reporting, you know, likes to an ogre for as a stomach bug saying, look, i united it all is the reporting on bite. and on so knack from london, how wonderful everything is. why do you think there's a mismatch between what you just said and, and that will uh that somebody who is don't as you port warranted out with the, with the information i would choose an international scale. uh, it would be normal to expect what we saw the strong burg saying, which is everything's ok. what else is he going to say? we're in disarray and we chatted bri up on the forward course of personal. i don't know whether it will, of course, the state department to by surprise that that will be the effect on moscow as you see, if you began your 2017 books, a blind is with

a quote from now saying that all imperialist states a week because their appetite is large, how over extended do you think that to the united states is now that a blinking state department. i mean, they admitted zalinski has run out of ammunition. the political and military fact in ukraine. it is that the united states is uh, does not have any troops on the ground. and that takes off the cable. um, the question of over extension uh, and illusion the over extension question. do the differential deduct through base that is can the united states supply enough weapons to grain to defeat the rush, which i would not call out an example that is not an example of low risk stranger.

that's the question of the trends industrial policy and one that can be readily address address since we're talking about shells artillery. we're not talking about rebuilding battle fleets, which takes years to do um, or rebuild the air forces which takes your years, but still time. so i don't see over exception here, because some of the remark that the privatization of manufacture of ammunition and so forth in the us is a, is a uh element he has to be considered. i'm sure you'll say if i listen to you years ago, they would have had the military industrial complex that would have had no problems applying the landscape the a defense, industrial base as exist, good at the end of the cold war would have tried no problem. so that's correct, but the assumption stated that on stated, or the beginning with the, the drawing,

the curtain on the coal more was that that would be the, there would be, you know, history and, and a, and there would be no more great power conflict or emerging the states that emerge to compete with the united states, which turned out to be wrong. charlie was consolidation among the major defense companies. and there was a continuing loss of secondary and tertiary defense contractors that do a lot of the work for the majors. the best problem and of course, the way the blood can save the developer does respond to it is by saying will supply cluster bombs, which are a band by other nato countries. some element of losing the propaganda war there. because of course, in the nato countries, in europe, the issue of cluster bombs has now become a major issue as to should to the europeans be supporting

a war with cluster bottoms ascent but alone the what it means for future generations of ukrainians. i know the excuse given was one of the russian use of them. then we're going to clear it up anyway. so what difference is more customs may? oh, yeah, it stays trans, offered to uh, to clear the cluster munitions of following the conflict. then doug rate is other words, the rate of unexploded munitions that can explode subsequently is far down from what it was during the vietnam war. and yes, the, the use of cluster munitions is uh, is a indication of a few grains needs. and that the, the rate at which they're burning up the military hard. yes to. yeah. i mean,

i was talking about the, the information more rather than obviously the children of, in ukraine that may be bombed in future years, regardless of how much more efficient it may be compared to the outcome budget and vietnam. but you already have exactly why. this is exactly why it is a situation we find ourselves in. because of trustee know lends a policy of the car and america administration piece to make haste slowly as the one says. and so the more the, the fewer supplies that the ukrainians need to come to the russians more problem of their, their, uh, their defense becomes and this is all could have this all could have been avoided, the, the reliance on cluster munitions could have been avoided. and we supplied the

ukraine with the, with the weapons that they needed and asked for a year ago and had been asking for a change that using general melisha should go as you, as you wrote before. in november last year, you said that the general mock village jim with the joint chiefs, his job should be replaced. your exact words way is a is strategic instinct. there is dim, is political ambition is a foliage and which i am told means radiant. i haven't changed my opinion since last year now. even though many more billions dollars worth of weapons of incense, many billions of dollars, i have not accomplish what the state and policy objectives of the administration work. and so that's the that's what you end up with. uh when you, when you supply

a friendly country where is less than what it needs to finish the job. i mean, we invite general mainly to defend them self, but i could speculate and say that it's not him who is the lead. here it is the blinking the state department, and the policy is being made the outside of the pentagon. well, in general, milly has made his opinions known in um, in all sorts of, for around the around washington around the country and outside united states. i think it's pretty clear what is the opinion which why did he want space talks now? i think he sees the size uh um, as wasted effort. and you have no, no sympathy with the tool because in the polls ahead of next is us general election . of course, donald trump writing high with the opinions that i get people to talk stuff to the

fighting stuff to supply weapons. this war could be over tomorrow, i think is what the something that like the trump said, there's been no national discussion of this. uh, probably biting is not as yet to go on television or to explain what the stakes are. a new thing that leaves open ground for a traditional american isolationist. uh and uh, if trump is not a traditional american isolation that she's not anything as well. so was that for the uh before uh, before things like go ahead of themselves. i might say, uh, you mean campaigning, but s b r s t e r. uh, realize what was going on in europe and sprint, you know, the better part of the 2nd big ministration during the country for war. well, you'll be in camp and as you said, they had,

they didn't listen to you as they might have as regards preparing for another. what you mean? campaigning for? reappraisal of u. s. military needs for 4 years. is it too late now? now the china has declared to know limits partnership with russia. i don't think it's too late. i don't see any signs of that. uh, the, the uh, sensible policy would have tried the lessons of ukraine to try want, which is to say, instead of waiting until there's an attack, trying to deter one by doing the chinese work they need in order to defend themselves. now, not at that, the point that one sees amphibious ships gathering in, uh, in southern, uh, chinese, uh, naval fords. so you're against the kissinger doctrine. i mean kissinger's prank

protection, a recent fee where he admitted he didn't blame you. crane for the north stream. i don't know whether that means he believes side hush about the north stream attacks that they were by the ministration terror attack. you don't see that because inches victim that you do not fide rusher and john under the same time as true. i think it's wise to try to avoid fighting anybody of course, um and uh, even wiser or more imperative to avoid having to fight on 2 fronts at the same time . who can disagree with that? the doctor said, scrub, see, i'll stop you. that's more from before the deputy undersecretary, the u. s. navy, the current president of the yorktown institute after this break the

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here. we don't just have to go up. the president of yorktown institute informed deputy undersecretary the u. s. navy, so safety was saying that it's not good to fight on 2 fronts of aging. and let's go through any we had the so getting kind of gone of a rush, your advisor on the program. recently. he was created most cuz you teach washington

about the parents by using tactical nuclear weapons. i know you're on the record in the image of wall street journal for saying that the us you to show it can win a nuclear war. do you think he was reflecting your article or do you think uh, do you think there are people in the, by the ministration that alone in the boot in administration? who believe that some sort of limited nuclear war is feasible and is the only rational option? has millions of dollars a weapons, a port in and ukraine, the red line from russia that ukrainian join nature was being crossed. uh, you know, way in vilnius as well as him. i'm sure that you noticed the same thing. most of the rest of the world is noticed as well, which is that every time there is a either discussion all or the livery of our show room

missiles shells of the airplane tanks, uh, infantry fighting vehicles that poked and threatens uh, waves the new we are well, he would deny that he always says no, that's off the table, but there are other people within russian society who st. yes. where he shut it on several occasions that this raises dark. the darkest questions about the rear ization of the war. um, but uh we have packed the weapons that can deal with this and the west has to be careful because we need to tread carefully so on and so forth. but yeah, but uh, in fact, what we see is that there are 2 red lines here. um, in this war and they've been observed trinity well, since the beginning and that is but the ukrainians by and large do not attack into

russia. oh, they did into bugs a ride, and i don't know if there's a rush you're considered to join yet supply the rest of the crime here in the village bridge. i said by and large, most of the other. and the other one is that the russians don't attack the delivery of western military equipment in the ukraine. and that's hill. those have held more or less a shower, but since the beginning of the war. and so it hasn't gone nuclear. i think i'm not sure that's a good argument. is it that because it hasn't gone you via yes, we can proceed this the cause of this war as it has been being for this pasta. well, the russians would say, since 2014 and the major would say, since the february last year. surely, that's not a good argument uses. you know,

i think it's a good argument that the, that the breaks our own seen so far. there's no reason to expect anything different in the future. and also, i think that proven, understands what the consequences of using the tactical nuclear weapon would be. first of all, there are good targets for uh, for categor, literally wrapping in ukraine because they're not massed into the go world war to fashion their forces are not. and 2nd of all, it would bring nato together in a way that it has not been brought together. well, it you, just like i said, it would bring nature together and i should say a tactical talk is it'd be discuss alarmed and the administrator defends in london . for instance, because there are 50 special forces troops in ukraine according to the direct etc leaks even the shawnee. the point it is not that nature would be stronger together . it was the united states that would presently say, look, we're going to do some kind of talking here. a while you're up would be powerless

to active any case. the last point i was going to make was that the consequences of a russian use of nuclear power to go locally or weapons um are consequences that the face bike will and will not face. and we're like, what are they all sorts of options? i mean, uh, for example, here's a shifted sleep or go away interest that you'd be driving sorry to interrupt you, been writing about that. you favor a tax on russian infrastructure, black see ports, oil rail bases. you've also mentioned syria and the, the points of the talk. yeah. do you think ukraine uh, should extend the war to those bases in the strain shirts in the war. my point only is, but uh, the kinds of wrench for a filtering of using a tactical nuclear weapon is, but a lot of the things that he got use would be

a risk. i mean, surely that is completely against the idea of deterrence. theory isn't like a bench on each risk by conventional means. right? and, and that's certainly want to get kind of gone over his writing about and saying the response would not be necessarily new to you. but it would teach the what about your workers again? i don't, i don't think it would be but, but non nuclear does not mean this does not give you a free pass. there's a lot of a lot of, uh, a lot of damage that can be done with conventional weapons and food notes. that is not a form. do you think that trump is not only getting uh, a lot of support in the united states for ending this war in another way? it has let alone the billions being sent over is that he is making hey, out of the fact that biden's team depends against lloyd austin hills from raphael

on blinking. and michelle flores, he come from west exec fee defense contract to consult with the arrow haines. director of national intelligence a is from the sullivan kit, has links to ty, one it, it goes into the narrative of the trump narrative, which is, this is the swamp here that needs to be drained, they will making future money out of this policy that pursuing in ukraine, when, when peace should actually be pursued rather than, rather than future personal money. i suppose. all the dead bodies of ukrainian men, women, and children. and i would be very surprised. yes. of the people who, who is drunk should borders, are aware and the connections that you just membership. i don't think they are. that's the working classes of america. i would say, i mean you are the hudson institute. did you ever feel that there was that to you?

i mean, obviously there's no direct pressure the but the way you write and think about conflict is influenced by the fact that say, raise your northrop loki, boeing chevron, and x on a funding the hudson institute. i know now i don't know who funds yorktown, but do you see that these conflicts of interest exists when it comes to forging a strategy to benefit the united states or for all the companies, st. tanks, individuals who are writing on international relations on foreign policy and national security. uh, i think they, they, the central problem is uh whether their views are influenced by um, by the particular companies that, uh, that, that contribute to their think tax hudson for example. um,

as large as highly supportive board of trustees and they are uh, strictly informed in uh, in sustaining the the s 2 um and as for uh, whatever influence the defense contractors. uh, uh, i don't see it. um, what i see is that there's a confluence of interest uh, between people who are between analysts, experts uh former government officials who have a certain policy position and corporations that ensure that policy interest. and if an individual goes outside that then uh, i think choosing problem, but i don't, i don't, i don't see evidence about interesting to hear what the problems uh would uh be,

uh, shipley. um, if uh would be, the problem would be if, let's say a uh, the manufacturer of a piece of, uh, uh, defense hardware were to offer a shame tied for it as a, as an example. uh, sponsorship in exchange for support about this particular piece of equipment and the uh, the, the, the, the, this imaginary think tank or imaginary uh, expert for it didn't get that piece of equipment was particularly valuable or useful. right. so i'll get, well we, we don't have time to talk about the f 35 yet here. and that would be the, and that would be, you know, i was making no allegations there, i should say, against those defense companies. but obviously, actually is the raise your own patriot ms. that is being talked about in the

ukraine calls like i, i also going to ask you just find the about the, a relative sanctions in unity of countries. is the ukraine conflict as big as got it. and then rush here is uh, uh, trading with the global south evans, you'll get back bricks in the rest of the world outside the or be in union britain in the united states. the war is being reported on very differently. but having said that, even there in the capitals of the global, so they recognized certainly mean it to you in nature. why have you said there was a growing fisher in nature? and the nature was more brittle than ever. what, why, why do you see it that way when every day with all the nation nation, media that and the opposite as well? uh, germany has been reluctant. they've been dragged into it kicking and screaming some time either for the 1st time or if the 2nd world war of their political divisions. well, yes, that's right down there during the recession. right. but the fact is that the

german should been politically divided over support for your grant. and my pro has been um on this uh, idea of, uh, european leadership of, um, european military leadership in europe. uh, although there is no foreign secretary there to uh to direct it. um, so they been uh, and they also have a greater economic interest. uh, in many cases uh, to maintain cars rusher, especially germany. so, and that is uh townford by the eastern, uh, or with don rumsfeld called the new york or up the eastern part of europe, which has direct experience with what, living on the rushes,

thomas life. so that's a and all right, so that's the reason. do you expect this war to end because of the war fatigue in western europe? we saw a civil, a civil disobedience, civil strife across the whole of front sexually. and regardless of what macro is, switching one day to the other on your train, and also in switzerland and holland, you see that the economic catastrophe approaching in europe may decide how long this war is going to go in before the inevitable. russia u. s. summit that divides the country of ukraine, or i can answer that question because it, it's really, really part just a, it's really part of the spirit. good to look into the future. ah, i didn't tell you this, but this western resolve rage. and that will encourage and then to

the war if the united states ministration changes and trunk becomes president when the war uh, if americans don't vote for drum and binding becomes is, is return to the present and shape. uh, and that he made to the more concerted and attempt to explain what the states are here, not only in ukraine and russia, but for the rest of the world of losing your train to the russians. then i think things will go well. but just briefly, either way, the war on china begins. then i think that the perception that the west has has cracked on uh on your brain, leading to a value. granted the feet leads directly drawer and then the far east interest

specific. yes, dr. south causing thank you. thank you. ok. and that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episodes until they didn't even touch by the social media results sense and in your countries had to our channel going on are going to be on normal. don't come to us, you and old episodes of going underground seas have this the

the mother and father are killed while their child hospitalized. following what's described does an emergency situation on the cry, me in, rich or traffic on the roots of being able to also ahead the kremlin spokes person safe negotiations of the black seek brain deal, which is due to expire today, a broken down and multiple had previously said it was on willing to renew the agreement if the west didn't fulfill its commitments to the rest of the place and advance multiple rocket launcher systems to take.