the, the, [000:00:00;00] the i'm action or time see and welcome back to going under ground, broke us the all around the world from you by in the you a want to make of last week's nature. so many things. if you're a new or a nation on the board with russia, which has a new limits partnership with china. well, perhaps today's 61st anniversary, the so called small boy nuclear weapons gas north west. las vegas might be

instructive with me now from washington, dc to someone who is said, unless the us proposed when a new the award risk losing one for the deputy undersecretary of u. s. navy dr. seth crops, the president of yorktown institute, joins me now. thank you. so much that's for coming on. i been there just off and on the bill and the as last week. i did it with some people. those are lensky was acting, acting up. i don't know whether anyone to the day there was going to had meet ukraine in the middle of a war and whether he was in fact just acting on the weather or even nature. membership is that important, given that the, you know, present, leaving us would come to the age of japan. if it was boomed. mary mayo, members, uh, provided russia. where is that incentive to fight on by failing to agree on how and under what circumstances are most important when your

grade would be admitted to nato. so that means that the signal sent to pool is that uh, western resolve is uh cranking and then uh is subjective, can be to outlast the resolve of the atlantic alliance. and with a new grain, i mean, you're an expert in all or an expert in information war fact as you do, you know, directed editorial policy of the voice of america. that's certainly not how it's being reported in a to a nation media. the reporting, you know, likes to an older for, as a stomach bug saying, look, are united, it all is the reporting on bite. and so now from london, how wonderful everything is. why do you think there's a mismatch between what you just said and, and that will uh that somebody who is don't as you

port warranted out with the, with information i would choose an international scale. uh, it would be normal to expect what we saw the strong burg saying, which is everything's ok. what else is he going to say? we're in disarray and we chatted bri up on a forward course of personal. the, i don't know whether it will, of course, the state department to by surprise that that will be the effect on most because you see, if you began your 2017 books, a blind is with a quote from now saying that all imperialist states a week, because their appetite is large, how over extended do you think that to the united states is now that a blinking state department? i mean, they admitted zalinski has run out of ammunition. the political and military fact in ukraine. it is that the united states is uh,

does not have any troops on the ground. and that takes off the cable. um, the question of over extension. uh, and it loads it. the over extension question to the defense industrial base, that is canada, united states, supply enough weapons to grade to defeat the rush, which i would not call out an example. that is not an example of low risk stranger . that's the question of the trends industrial policy and one that can be readily address address since we're talking about shells artillery. we're not talking about rebuilding battle fleets, which takes years to do um or rebuild the air force, which takes few years, but still time. so i don't see a restriction here because some of the remark that the privatization of manufacture

of ammunition and so forth in the us is a, is a uh element here to be considered. i'm sure you'll say if they'd listen to you years ago, they would have had the military industrial complex that would have had no problems applying the landscape the a defense industrial base as exist, good at the end of the cold or winter time. no problem. that's correct. but the assumption state is that on stated at the beginning with the, the drawn curtain on the cold war was that, that would be the, there would be, you know, history and, and a, and there would be no more great power conflict or emerging, the states that are merged to compete with the united states and turned out to the wrong charter was consolidation among the major defense companies. and there was a continuing loss of secondary and tertiary defense

contractors that do a lot of the work for the majors. the best problem and of course, the way the blinking, save the developer does respond to it is by saying will supply cluster bombs, which is a band by other nato countries. some element of losing the propaganda war there. because of course, in the nato countries, in europe, the issue of cluster bombs has now become a major issue as to why should the europeans be supporting a war with cluster bottoms ascent for the loan, the what it means for future generations of ukrainians. i know the excuse given was one of the russian use of them. then we're going to clear it up anyway. so what difference is more customs may oh, yeah, it stays trans, offered to uh, to clear the pressure munitions of following the conflict. the gun rate is other words,

the radians unexploded munitions that can explode subsequently is far down from what it was during the vietnam war. uh and yes, the um, the use of cluster munitions is a, is a indication of a few grains needs. and that the, the rate at which they're burning up the military hard. yes. yeah. i mean, i was talking about the, the information war rather than, obviously the children of, in ukraine that may be bombed in future years. regardless of how much more efficient it may be. compared to allow cambodia and vietnam, but can you already have exactly why this is exactly why it is a situation we find ourselves in. because of trustee know lends a policy of the car and america administration piece to make haste slowly as the

one says. and so the more the, the fewer supplies that the ukrainians need to come to the russians more problem of their, their, uh, their defense becomes and this is all could have this all could have been avoided, the, the reliance on cluster munitions could have been avoided. and we supplied the ukraine with the, with the weapons that they needed and asked for a year ago and had been asking for a change that using general milly should, should go as you, as you wrote before. in november last year, you said that the general mock village chairman of the joint chiefs, his job should be replaced your exact words. what is the is the strategic instincts there is dim is political ambition is

a foliage in which i am told means radiant. i haven't changed my opinion since last year. now. even though many more billions dollars worth of weapons are being sent a many billions of dollars, i have not accomplish what the state and policy objectives of the administration work. and so that's the that's what you end up with. uh when you, when you supply a friendly country where is less than what it needs to finish the job. i mean, we invite general mainly to defend him self, but i could speculate and say that it's not him who is the lead. here it is the blinking state department and the policy is being made uh outside of the pentagon. well, uh, in general miller, you guys made his opinions known in uh,

in all sorts of, for around uh, around washington, around the country and outside the might of states. i think it's pretty clear what is the opinion which, why did he want space talks? now? i think he sees the size uh um, as wasted effort. and you have no, no sympathy with the tool because in the polls ahead of next is us general election . of course, donald trump writing high with opinions that i get people to talk stuff to the fighting stuff. the supply weapons this war could be over tomorrow, i think is what to. there's something that like the trump said, there's been no national discussion of this. uh, probably biting is not as yet to go on television or to explain what the stakes are. a new thing that leaves open ground for

a traditional american isolationist. uh and uh, if trump is not a traditional american isolation that she's not anything as well. so is that for the uh before uh, before things like go ahead of themselves. i might say, you mean campaigning, but s b r, but after your, uh, realize what was going on in europe and sprint, you know, the better part of the secondary ministration are in the country for war. will you be in camp? and as you said, they had, they didn't listen to you as they might have as regards preparing for another. what you mean? campaigning for? reappraisal of u. s. military needs for 4 years. is it too late now? now the china has declared to no limits partnership with russia. i don't think it's too late. i don't see any signs of that. uh, the, the so sensible policy would apply to lessons of ukraine to

try one. which is to say, instead of waiting until there's an attack, trying to deter one by doing the chinese work they need in order to defend themselves. now, not at that point, that one sees amphibious ships gathering in uh, in southern, uh, trying to use uh, naval fords. so you're against the kissinger doctrine. i mean, kissinger was prank protection. the reason for the way admitted he didn't blame ukraine for the north stream. i don't know whether that means he believes sy hersh about the north stream attacks that they were by the ministration terror attack. you don't see that because inches dick's them that you do not fight rush around, trying to read the same time as true. i think it's wise to try to avoid fighting anybody of course, um and uh,

even wiser or more imperative to avoid having to fight on 2 fronts at the same time . who can disagree with that? the doctor said, scrub, see, i'll stop you. that's more from the form of deputy under secretary of us navy, the current president of the yorktown institute. after this break the

the i think ukraine does exist, should exist. and it is precisely the best option i suspect for its future is to find that amalgam of the cultures that are within it and turn it into something unique and flourishing. that that would define it in distinction but not conflict but, but simply the difference between itself and its neighbors.

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here. we don't just have to corrupt the president of yorktown institute informed deputy undersecretary the u. s. navy. so he was saying that today it's not good to fight on 2 fronts of aging. and let's go clearly we had the, so getting kind of gone of a rush, your advisor on the program. recently. he was granted most go should teach washington about the parents by using tactical nuclear weapons. i know you were on the record in the image of wall street journal for saying that the u. s. should show it can win a nuclear war. do you think he was reflecting your article or do you think uh, do you think there are people in the, by the ministration that alone in the polluting administration? who believe that some sort of limited nuclear war is feasible and is the only rational option?

has millions of dollars, weapons, a port in and ukraine, the red line from russia that ukraine's you enjoyed nature was being crossed in a way in vilnius as well as him. i'm sure. did you notice the same thing? most of the rest of the world has noticed as well, which is that every time there is a either discussion or, or the delivery of our show room missiles, shells. the airplane was, takes the infantry fighting vehicles, the boat and threatens uh, waves the new we are well, he would deny that he always says, no, that's off the table, but there are other people within russian society who st. yes. where do you shut it on? several occasions that this raises dark,

the dark is questions about the rear ization of the war. um, but uh, we got past the weapons that can deal with this. and the west has to be careful because we need to tread carefully so on and so forth. but yeah, but uh, in fact, what we see is that there are 2 red lines here um in this war, and they've been observed um trinity, well, since the beginning and that is the, the ukrainians by and large do not attack into russia. oh, they did into bugs a ride, and the and the rest are considered to join yet supply the rush or the crime here in the village bridge. i said by and large, most of the other. and the other one is that the russians don't attack the delivery of western military equipment into ukraine. and that's

hill. those have held more or less a challenge since the beginning of the war. and so it hasn't gone nuclear. i think i'm not sure that's a good argument. is it the because it hasn't gone you via yet, we can proceed this the cause of this war as it has been being for this pasta. while the russians, as a says 2014 and the major would say, since the february last year, surely that's not a good argument is, you know, i think it's a good argument that the, that the biggest i, what i'm seeing so far, there's no reason to expect anything different in the future? and also, i think that proven, understands what the consequences of using the tactical nuclear weapon would be. first of all, there are good targets for uh for patrick, a little bit weapon and ukraine because they're not massed into the go world war to

fashion their forces are not. and 2nd of all, it would bring nato together in a way that it has not been brought together. well, it you just like i said, it would bring nature together and i should say a tactical talk is it'd be discuss on london. the administrator defends in london for instance, because there are 50 special forces troops in ukraine according to the direct etc leaks even the shawnee. the point it is not that nature would be stronger together, it was the united states, they would presently say, look, we're going to do some kind of talking here. a while you're up would be powerless to act. in any case. the last point i was going to make was that the consequences of a russian use of nuclear power to go locally or weapons um are consequences that the face bike will and will not face. and we're like, what are they all sorts of options? i mean, uh, for example, here's a shifted sleep or go away interest. so you'd be driving sorry to interrupt you, been writing about that. you favor a tax on russian infrastructure,

black see ports, oil rail bases. you've also mentioned syria and the, the points and we'll talk. yeah. do you think ukraine uh, should extend the war to those base is modeled a stranger in the war. my point only is but uh, the kinds of wrench for a fulton of using a tactical nuclear weapon is, but a lot of the things that he got you would be at risk. i mean, surely that is completely against the idea of the saturn sphere is like a bench on each risk by conventional needs. right. and, and that's certainly what, uh, so it kind of gone over his writing about and saying the response would not be necessarily new to you, but it would teach the what know about your workers again. i don't, i don't think it would be but, but non nuclear does not mean this does not give you

a free pass. there's a lot of a lot of, uh, a lot of damage that can be done with conventional weapons and food notes that is not up for. do you think that trump is not only getting uh, a lot of support in the united states for ending this war in another way it had, let alone the billions being sent over is that he is making hey, out of the fact that biden's team depend against lloyd austin hills from raphael on blinking, and michelle flores, he come from west exec fee defense contract to consult with the arrow haines. director of national intelligence a is from the sullivan kit, has links to ty, one it, it goes into the narrative of the trump narrative, which is, this is the swamp here that needs to be drained, they will making future money out of this policy that pursuing in ukraine, when, when peace should actually be pursued rather than,

rather than future personal money. i suppose. all the dead bodies of ukrainian men, women, and children. and i would be very surprised. yes. of the people who, who is drunk should borders, are aware of the connections that you just membership. i don't think they are. that's the working classes of america. i would say, i mean you are the hudson institute. did you ever feel that there was that to you? i mean, always you, there's no direct pressure the but the way you write and think about conflict is influenced by the fact that it's a raise. your northrop loki, boeing chevron and x on a funding the hudson institute. i know now i don't know who funds to your town, but do you see that these conflicts of interest exists when it comes to forging a strategy to benefit the united states? or for all the companies uh,

same time individuals who uh are writing on international relations on foreign policy and national security. uh, i think they, they, the central problem is uh whether their views are influenced by um, by the particular companies that uh, that they contribute to the same tax hudson for example, um, as large as highly supportive board of trustees. and they are, uh, they're extremely important in uh, in sustaining the, the s 2 um and as for whatever influence the defense contractors. uh, uh, i don't see it. um, what i see is that there's

a confluence of interest uh, between people who are between analysts, experts uh former government officials who have a certain policy position and corporations that ensure that policy interest. and if an individual goes outside that then um i think choosing problem, but i don't, i don't, i don't see evidence about interesting to hear what the problems uh would uh be, uh, actually um, if uh would be, the problem would be if, let's say a, the manufacturer of a piece of, uh, uh, defense hardware were to offer a shrink guide for it as a, as an example. uh sponsorship in exchange for support about this particular piece of equipment. and they need the, the,

the best or imaginary think tank or imaginary uh, expert for it didn't think that the piece of equipment was particularly valuable or useful. right? um, okay, well we, we don't have time to talk about the f 35 yet here. and that would be the, and that would be, you know, the fact that i was making no allegations there, i should say, against those defense companies. but obviously it actually is the raise your own patriot ms. that is being talked about in the ukraine calls like i, i also going to ask you just find the about the, a relative sanctions in unity of countries is the ukraine conflict as big as dawson and then rusher is a trading with the global south. everyone's talking about bricks and the rest of the world outside the or be in union britain in the united states. the war is being reported on very differently. but having said that, even there, in the capitals of the global side, they recognized certainly mean it to you in nature. why have you said there was

a growing fisher in nature? and the nature is more brittle than half a. what? why, why do you see it that way when every day with all the nation nation media that the opposite as well. uh, jeremy has been real good. they've been dragged into it kicking and screaming some time either for the 1st time or the 2nd world war of their political divisions. well, yes, that's right down there during the recession. right. but the fact is that the german should have been politically divided over support for your grant. and my crew has been um on this uh, idea of uh, european leadership, but from european military leadership in europe. although there is no foreign secretary there to uh, to direct it. um, so they been uh,

and they also have a greater economic interest. uh, in many cases uh, to maintain ties rusher, especially germinate. so, and that is uh townford by the eastern, uh, or with don rumsfeld called the new york, the eastern part of europe. uh, which has direct experience with what living under rushes, thomas, life. so that's uh and all right, so that's the reason. do you expect this war to end because of more fatigue in western europe, we saw a civil, a civil disobedience, civil strife across the whole of fronts actually. and regardless of what macro is, switching one day to the other on your train, and also in switzerland and holland, you see that the economic catastrophe approaching in europe may decide how long

this war is going to go in before the inevitable. russia u. s. summit that divides the country of ukraine. i can answer that question because it's really, really part just a it's really part of spirit. good to look into the future. so i didn't tell you this, but this wester resolve rates. and that will encourage and then to the war if the united states ministration changes and trunk becomes president when the war. uh, if americans don't vote for drum and binding becomes this is returned to the present and shape. uh. and he made to the more concerted and attempt to explain what the states are here,

not only in ukraine and russia, but for the rest of the world, of losing your train to the russians. then i think things will go well. but just briefly, either way, the war on china begins. then i think that the perception that the west has has cracked on uh on your grade, leading to or a granted degree leads directly drawer and then the far east interest specific. yes, dr. south causing. thank you. thank you. ok. and that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episodes until they didn't even touch by the social media results sense and in your countries had to have the channel going on. the going to be a normal dot com to what you and old episodes of going on demands. he's happy with

the the the hotels this russell condemned to ukraine, colorado talk on the crime in bridge as an act of terrorism. positive killed the mother and father, and that's the filters the very end of the buses as a black st. greenville is a base of the dead and the little as you train islands west them back because we're not responding to the terms of the agreement. i'm of it was it will no longer