us a fully buttons and establish that, that knowledge and the national organization, and it's sisterly that are the crescent city or the cousins. again, another official, and a nationally and internationally acclaimed by the to a supervisor, the distribution of a this does not go when with the americans, this does not go well with less than others who wants to distribute it, come boys to their own people. that's. that's why visit, okay, no, this is a little there's okay. it has to be done with the incorporation with the office have to study. that's why do you have to study that? this is a southern country you had a you and your mother is right. you are not a medical, you are not any other assault to all you know, a occupation force you are the you and why come to cope today's with the i'd say somebody i missed the cap of the last number. the cause and this. yeah, i mean i, i the size, again, sorry for jumping it, but i think you mentioned very,

very bad point all over your courting at double stand has missed a couple on the form of syrian different about, you know, i love how you're always, very straight with us very open and very frank and mr. campbell, i'm always a pleasure. thank you very much for your time. i or a thank you for joining us here on the us international or the pleasure to have you with us a catch up with all stories online for the meantime, we are back with some of the the i'm action or time. see and welcome back to going under ground broke. i'll see you around the world from you by in the you a want to make of last week's made with russia, which has a new limits partnership with china. well, perhaps today's 61st anniversary,

the so called small boy nuclear weapons desk with me now from washington, dc to someone who is said, unless the us proposed when a new day award risk losing one for a deputy undersecretary of the u. s. navy talked to seth crops, the president of yorktown institute, joins me now. thank you so much. that's for coming on. i be there just off and on the bill in the as last week. i did it with some people. those are lensky was acting, acting up. i don't know whether anyone thought that they did was going to lead me to create in the middle of a war and whether he was in fact, just uh, acting on the whether even nature membership is that important. given that the, you know, present, leaving us would come to be a to japan. if it was boomed. mary mayo, members, uh, provided russia where is an incentive to try it on by failing to agree on how and under what circumstances are most important. when your

grade would be admitted to nato. so that means that the signals trying to pull it is that, uh, western resolve is uh cranking and that, uh is objective, can be to outlast the resolve of the atlantic alliance. and with a new grain. i mean, you're an expert in all or an expert in information warfare, cuz you, you know, directed editorial policy of the voice of america. that's certainly not how it's being reported in nato nation. media. the reporting, you know, likes to an ogre for as a stomach bug saying, look, are united, it all is the reporting on bite. and so not from london. how wonderful everything is. why do you think there's a mismatch between what you just said and, and that will uh that somebody who is don't as you

port warranted out with the, with information i would choose an international scale. uh, it would be normal to expect what we saw a strong bridge saying, which is everything's ok. what else is he going to say? we're in disarray and we chatted bri up on a forward course of personal. i don't know whether it will, of course, the state department to by surprise that that will be the effect on most because you see, if you began your 2017 books, a blind is with a quote from now saying that all imperialist states a week because their appetite is large, how over extended do you think that to the united states is now that a blinking state department. i mean, they admitted zalinski has run out of ammunition. the political and military fact in ukraine. it is that the united states

is uh, does not have any troops on the ground. and that takes off the cable. um, the question of over extension. uh, and it loads it. the over extension question to the defense industrial base that is can the united states supply enough weapons to grade to defeat the rush, which i would not call out an example. that is not an example of low risk stranger . that's a question of the trends. industrial policy and one that can be readily address address since we're talking about shells artillery. we're not talking about rebuilding battle fleets, which takes years to do um, or rebuild the air forces which takes few years but still time. so i don't see over exception here,

because some of the remark that the privatization of manufacture of munition and so forth in the us is a, is a, a element here to be considered. i'm sure you'll say if i listen to you years ago, they would have had the military industrial complex that would have had no problems applying the landscape the a defense industrial base as existing at the end of the cold or winter time, no problem. that's correct. but the assumption stated that on stated at the beginning with the, the drawn curtain on the cold war was that, that would be the, there would be, you know, history and a, and there would be no more great power conflict or emerging states that are merged to compete with the united states and turned out to be wrong. otherwise, consolidation among the major defense companies. and there was

a continuing loss of secondary and tertiary defense contractors that, that do a lot of the work for the majors. the best problem. and of course, the way the blinking, save the development is responded is by saying will supply cluster bombs, which is a band by other nato countries. some element of losing the propaganda war there. because of course, in the nato countries, in europe, the issue of cluster bombs has now become a major issue as to why should the europeans be supporting a war with cluster bottoms ascent for the loan, the what it means for future generations of ukrainians. i know the excuse given was one of the rush me use of them. then we're going to clear it up anyway. so what difference is more customs may oh, yeah, it stays trans. offered to uh, to clear the pressure munitions of following the conflict. the gun rate

is other words, the range unexploded munitions that can explode subsequently is far down from what it was during the vietnam war. uh and yes, the um, the use of cluster munitions is a, is a indication of a few grains needs. and that the, the rate at which they're burning up the military hard are you still hear about the, the information war rather than, obviously the children of in ukraine that may be bombed in future years, regardless of how much more efficient they may be compared to allow cambodia and vietnam, but you already have exactly why. this is exactly why it is a situation we find ourselves in. because of the trustee know lends a policy of the car and america administration just to make haste slowly as the

one says. and so the more the, the fewer supplies that the ukrainians need to come to the russians more problem of their, their, uh, their defense becomes and this is all could have this all could have been avoided, the, the reliance on cluster munitions could have been avoided. and we supplied the ukraine with the, with the weapons that they needed and asked for a year ago and had been asking for a change that you think general millie should, should go as you, as you wrote before in the velocity i, you said that the general mock village, chairman of the joint chiefs, his job should be replaced your exact words. what is the is the strategic instincts there is dim is political ambition is

a foliage in which i am told means radiant. i haven't changed my opinion since last year. now, even though many more billions dollars worth of weapons are being sent and many billions of dollars not accomplish what the stated policy objectives of the administration were. and that's the uh when you, when you supply a friendly country where is less than what it needs to finish the job. i mean, we invite general mainly to defend him self, but i could speculate and say that it's not him who's the lead. here it is, the blank and the state department and policy depends. well, uh, in general, milly has made his opinions known in um, in all sorts of, for around the around washington around the country and outside the might of states

. i think it's pretty clear what is the opinion which why did he want space talks now? i think he sees this as a as waste effort. and you have no, no sympathy with the tool because in the polls ahead of next is us general election . of course, donald trump writing hi with the opinions that i get people to talk stuff to the fighting stuff. the supply weapons this war could be over tomorrow, i think is what the, something like the trump said, there's been no national discussion of this uh, probably by me as not as yet to go on television or to explain what the stakes are. a new frame. so that leaves open ground for the traditional american isolationist. uh and uh, if trump is not

a traditional american isolation, that she's not really, it was definitely, uh before, uh, before things like go ahead of themselves. i might say, you mean campaigning, but s b r. but after your, uh, realize what was going on in europe and spend, you know, the better part of the secondary ministration during the country for a war. well, you being comp and as you said, they had, they didn't listen to you as they might have as regards preparing for another. we've been campaigning for. reappraisal of u. s. military needs for 4 years. is it too late now? now the china has declared to no limits partnership with russia. i don't think it's too late. i don't see any signs of that. uh, the, the uh, sensible policy would have tried the lessons of ukraine to try want, which is to say,

instead of waiting until we are some of the time trying to deter one by doing the chinese, what they need in order to defend themselves. now, not at the point that one sees infinity of ships gathering in the, in southern chinese, the naval force. so you're against the kissinger doctrine. i mean kissinger as prank actually recently where he admitted he didn't blame you. crane for the north stream. i don't know whether that means he believes sy hersh about the noted stream attacks that they were by the ministration terror attack. you don't see that because inches victim that you do not fide rusher. i'm trying to read the same time as true. i think it's wise to try to avoid fighting anybody of course, um and uh, even wiser or more imperative to avoid having to fight on 2 fronts at the same time

. who can disagree with that? so just have corrupt, say, i'll stop you that more from before, with deputy undersecretary of u. s. navy, the current president of yorktown institute after this break, the isn't time for folks to any possibilities. a new grade 12 more and more so called russia experts seem to think so the fund to look to the question that 1st must be asked who should be doing the talking to people who live the point in the complex and divided the world. the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here. we don't just have to grow up

the president of yorktown institute involved deputy undersecretary the u. s. navy. so he was saying that it's not good to fight on 2 fronts of aging. and let's go through any we had the so getting kind of gone of a rush, your advisor on the program. recently he was granted most goes your teach washington about the terrance by using tactical nuclear weapons. i know you were on the record in the image of wall street journal for saying that the u. s. should show it can win a nuclear war. do you think he was reflecting your article or do you think? do you think there are people in the, by the ministration that alone in the boots in administration? who believe that some sort of limited nuclear war is feasible and is the only rational option? has millions of dollars, weapons a port in and ukraine, the red line from russia that ukraine joined nature was being crossed. uh you know, way in vilnius. well, of him. i'm sure. did you notice the same thing?

most of the rest of the world is noticed as well, which is that every time there is a either discussion, all or the delivery of our show room missiles, shells of the airplane tanks, the infantry fighting vehicles that poked and threatens uh, waves the new we are well, he would deny that he always says no, that's off the table, but there are other people within the russian society who's saying yes of what he said on several occasions that this raises dark. the darkest questions about the rear ization of the war um but uh, we got past the weapons that can deal with this and the west has to be careful because we need to tread carefully so on so forth. but yeah, but uh, in fact,

what we see is that there are 2 red lines here um in this war, and they've been observed and show you well, since the beginning and that is but the ukrainians by and large do not attack into russia. oh, they did into bugs a ride in the general 1st rush are considered to join yet supply the rush or the in crime here in the village bridge. i said by and large, most of the other. and the other one is that the russians don't to track the delivery of western military equipment into ukraine. and that's till those have held more or less challenge since the beginning of the war. and so it hasn't gone nuclear. i think i'm not sure that's a good argument. is it the because it hasn't this the cause of this war as it has

been being for this pasta? well, the russians, as a says 2014 and the major would say, since the february last year. surely, that's not a good argument uses. you know, i think it's a good argument that the, that the biggest i, what i'm seeing so far, there's no reason to expect anything different in the future. and also, i think that proven, understands what the consequences of using the tactical nuclear weapon would be. first of all, there are good targets for uh, for categor, literally wrapping in ukraine because they're not massed into the go world war to fashion their forces are not. i'm 2nd of all, it would bring nato together in a way that it has not been brought together. well, it you just like i said, it would bring nature together and i should say a tactical talk is it'd be, discuss all london, the administrator defense in london for instance. because there are 50 special forces troops in ukraine according to the direct, etc, leaks. even the shawnee,

the point it is not that nature would be stronger together. it was the united states, they would presently say look, we're going to do some kind of talking here a while you're up would be powerless to act. in any case, the last point i was going to make was that the consequences of a russian use of nuclear power below your weapon. um, are the consequences that the face bike will and will not face and whooped like what? all sorts of options. i mean, uh, for example, here's a shipment fleet could go away interest, so you'd be driving sorry to interrupt you, been writing about that. you favor a tax on russian infrastructure, black see ports, oil rail bases. you've also mentioned syria and the, the ports and we'll talk. yeah. do you think ukraine uh, should extend the war to those base is modeled a stranger in the war. my point only is but uh,

the kinds of wrench for a fulton of using a tactical nuclear weapon is. but a lot of the things that he guy use wouldn't be at risk. i mean, surely that is completely against the idea of the saturn sphere is like a bench over each risk by conventional needs. right. and, and that's certainly what, uh, so i get kind of gone over his writing about and saying the response would not be necessarily new to you, but it would teach the one, i'm not sure where there's a game. i don't, i don't think it would be but, but non nuclear does not mean this does not give you a free pass. there's a lot of a lot of, uh, a lot of damage that can be done with conventional weapons and who knows that it's not for me. do you think the trump is not only getting uh, a lot of support in the united states for ending this war in another way?

a have let alone the billions being sent over is that he is making hey, out of the fact that bible's team depends against lloyd austin hills from raphael and blinking and michelle flores. he come from west exact, the defense contract to consult with the arrow haines. director national intelligence is from the sullivan, has links to ty, one it, it goes into the narrative of the trump narrative, which is, this is the swamp here that needs to be drain. they're all making future money out of this uh, policy they're pursuing in ukraine when, when peace should actually be pursued rather than, rather than future personal money. i suppose. all the dead bodies of ukrainian men, women, and children. and i would be very surprised. yes. uh, the people who uh, who is drunk borders are aware of the connections that you just membership. and i

don't think they are supporting classes of america. i would say, i mean you are the hudson institute. did you ever feel that there was that to you? i mean, obviously there's no direct pressure, but the way you write and think about conflict is influenced by the fact that it's a raise. your northrop loki, boeing chevron, and x on a funding the hudson institute. i know now i don't know who funds a yorktown, but do you see that these conflicts of interest exists when it comes to forging a strategy to benefit the united states for all the companies. st. francs, individuals who are writing on international relations on foreign policy and national security. uh, i think they, they, the central problem is uh whether their views are influenced by

um, by the particular companies that uh, that they contribute to their think tax hudson for example. um, as large as highly supportive board of trustees. um they are uh, extremely important in uh, in sustaining the the s 2 um and as for uh, whatever influence the defense contractors. uh, uh, i don't see it. um, what i see is that there's a confluence of interest um between people who are between analyst experts uh former government officials who have a certain policy position and uh, corporations that share that policy interest. and if an individual goes outside

that then um i think choosing problem, but i don't, i don't, i don't see evidence about is interesting to hear what the problems uh would uh be uh, shipley. um, if uh it would be, the problem would be if, let's say a manufacturer of a piece of, uh uh, defense hardware were to offer a shrink time for it as exact as an example. uh, sponsorship in exchange for support about uh, this particular piece of equipment and the uh the, the, the, the best or imaginary think tank or imaginary uh, expert for it didn't think that that piece of equipment was particularly valuable or useful. right? um. okay, well we, we don't have time to talk about the f 35 yet here,

and that would be the, and that would be, you know, i was making no allegations there, i should say against those defense companies. but obviously it actually is the raise your own patriot ms. that is being talked about in the ukraine calls like i also going to ask you just find the about the, a relative sanctions in unity of countries is the ukraine conflict as big as dawson . and then rusher is a trading with the global south. everyone's talking about bricks and the rest of the world outside the or be in union britain in the united states. the war is being reported on very differently. but having said that, even there, in the capitals of the global side, they recognized certainly mean it to you in nature. why have you said there was a growing fisher in nature? and the nature was more brittle than ever. what, why, why do you see it that way when every day with all the nation nation, media that and the opposite of the case? well, uh, germany has been real good. they've been dragged into red kicking and screaming,

sometimes there for the 1st time since the 2nd world war of their political divisions. well, yes, that's right down there during the recession. right. but the fact is that the german should've been politically divided over support for you. chris and my crew has been um on this uh idea of uh, european leadership of the european military leadership in europe. although there is no foreign secretary there to uh, to direct it. um, so they been uh, and they also have a greater economic interest. uh in many cases uh, to maintain cars rusher, especially germany. so and that is uh townford by the

eastern, uh, or with don rumsfeld called the new yorker up the eastern part of europe. uh, which has direct experience with what living on the rushes found this life. so that's uh and all right, so that's the reason. do you expect this war to end because of more fatigue in western europe, we saw a civil, a civil disobedience, civil strife across the whole of fronts actually. and regardless of what macro is, switching one day to the other on your train, and i also in switzerland and holland. you see that the, the economic catastrophe approaching in europe may decide how long this war is going to go in before the inevitable. russia, u. s. summit that divides the country of ukraine. i can answer that question because it, it's really, um, it's part just a,

it's really part of spirit. good to look into the future. ah, i didn't tell you this, but this western resolve rates. and that will encourage and in the war, if the united states ministration changes and trump becomes president when the war . uh, if americans don't vote for drum. and if by them becomes this is return to the present and shape. uh, and he made to the more concerted and attempt to explain what the states are here, not only in ukraine and russia, but for the rest of the world of losing your train to the russians. then i think things will go well. but just briefly, either way, the war on china begins when i think that the perception that the west

has has cracked on uh on your brain, leading to a pay you granted the fee leads directly drawer in the far east interest specific. yes, dr. sat causing, thank you. thank you. ok. and that's it for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episode. but until i didn't even touch by the social media results sense and in your countries had to have the channel going on. the going to be a normal dot com to what you handled episodes of going underground sees have fixed the, [000:00:00;00]

the the fix. it said the what happened is another terrorist attacked of the key ever seen this crime is senseless. there will be a response from russia comments and coming right back from the russian president vladimir putin. violence of respondents to the crania attack on the crimean bridge corn and get an act of terrorism, which kills a mother and the father to move the daughter severely injured. also in the