and then they also is outlined some of the reasons why that can happen. i think i've been honest, i'm is almost as if some thoughts will happen on officially. i think that's probably the most likely scenario, the next 6 months, you know, but um, it won't be. so let's get who broke is that he's just not. he's just too stuck in this mindset of if we took peace, we have to have a piece of this and you have to give a piece of that. and that's just not the way for, that's a, that's a bit and from, from the proposed to both of you. if we're gonna use this word arm, is this the only possible way? and what addresses to both of you is that, that, that could happen is that nato has to be ukraine and ukraine. what is left of it must be neutral in the middle which arise, that kind of pharmacist might work george when it might work. but the problem is that nato has now committed himself to the policy, say that ukraine will be in nature. well, given that, that,

that view that russia has no incentive to stop until it's pretty much demolish whatever is left of your brain. and so that's a little they'll just be a yeah, a landlord from the state, the new to the people and say, okay, you want the ukraine in nature of buying, this is what you can get. okay, bring it in, give it, give it the all the go, 5 a commitment, but we're going to take everything. we're going to take. everything goes valuable in you, right? that's may just doing nato because now probably, you know, hasn't often any incentives full for russia and that's why you see this. so these are, yeah, we will win this war, but i'm glad explain. explain how they're going to win this well. and then off the we won this war, ukraine will be inducted into nature where i o and any of these things are going to be achieved. if you're also making sure that you yourself, i'm not going to get into the fighting because a, you don't want to get killed. and you don't want to stop level 3. so, so it's,

it's a sort of a supposition, but that's, that's in a network. so striking about these far in advance, right? as is it, they went into this uh, this view, this is a bite administrative. this is the nature of you, the british government view. we'll just keep on fighting in the home that's, i don't know. some, some narrative is going to happen in moscow and then we can celebrate the point. that's just the point in the, in, in, in all these articles revolver, we reform new leader, a liberal leader, a new leader that they will. um, um, i swear off by imperialist designs, i mean, this is all fantasy and states the board on policy deal. politics doesn't work that way. and again, you know, as long as you know, you're focused on regime change and not thinking mazda of security. they get that they've called it put themselves and you will call this like, i mean, it was really kind of, it was reading these articles was very embarrassing because it was so devoid for me

reality mark. yeah. and the reality is the a button that said this, we're running out of them are. and when he said that nobody rushed in to say yes, but we're going to very, very quickly change that situation and restore the ukrainians, you know, whatever they're going to get in a 6 months isn't going to be anywhere near what they were having before. and i think people lives lensky, know that things aren't looking very good, a tool, and this is all, i'm sorry, ma'am, but i think at this point as low as b and the historical there in for the graph in the good, this can take the grid going as long as possible, you know, they, there is ample evidence that there are plenty of people that have stuff their money abroad. they've been the state. i mean, i mean, they're ready for this. i mean, if the falls in the west want to do a fund, it, you know, okay, fine. okay. all right, so these are the signs of the, the signs of the west of the lead. so i'm finally getting tired of this guy. look at the comments from ben wallace looking at the coming from by the both use. this would, you know,

lack of gratitude. you know what they were in the case of all the right hand saying was, we've put so much into this and we're paying the fiscal price. now back at home, you know, germany is almost a collect to tell everybody what's funny with the list, the, the, the, the 1st big bills that he's the old man because he didn't get the money to the secretary general. so now just a couple days ago, he's nelson depressed, he's checking in politics and doing god as well as a very right childish, vague action and stuff. but that is another story we should do another day, you know, the corruption of nature. what's going on when they say, with the nature of the job, you know, i'm sure that bite on this chosen a slip of the land of european commission because she presented herself once a woman. it was somebody from germany would be great. you know, time is up and you have the commission about 12 months time. so to look will fits right netflix, unless yeah, but i mean if i can interrupt and asked her, what was her history as minister of defense in germany, a lovely hero and you also get a gentleman that they just go, i don't know,

you know, because the because until when she was minister, that was the golden pier period in gym politics where, you know, the defense side of the ministry defense was basically, you know, the most remedial on spoke of insignificant government ministry that was really thinking the german median was called the most and loved position in the government here. hang on, let me go to church around and the rep rapidly running out of time. as always, you know, um, but, you know, you bring up a very, the, probably the most important point here is that nato is doubling down on the future ukraine membership. so why shouldn't arrested double down on his position that it will never be a member of nato. 5050, george? no, the exactly. that's what that has to be. native rough is position because, um, you know, i mean, you know, basically laid down this monica that it cannot accept the ukraine and they, so, and they, so is this, the no, no, no, you,

you green will be in nature that russia has no incentive as o 2 of the thing and then they go straight anything, and it's clear that the west some files haven't done anything. they haven't gotten a minimum it, but putting out some kind of bc, the some, some basis ready thing. and instead that's why we have oldest propaganda, resume or restaurant. it doesn't want to negotiate rosters already from the goal. she ation is that, you know, they know just gets a, what we're going to pull more or more ons into ukraine because that will improve our negotiating position. well, negotiating the plan and proposals are willing to get, get it, but the notion positions. but of course that's in itself is a lie, because if, if you know the moment ukraine gets anything, it captures, loves images right away. say, hey, we're waiting, let's keep doing. let's skip sending more and more because it's going to put us into it all or even better. no, no big us. it's like a gambling. you know?

he said he could never stop. you know, i don't know. maybe on the next, the beth, i'm going to, you know, i'm going to change and make a fortune. i mean, that's the hope intellectually, the, you know, the, the gamblers, the policy and the major. my favorite novels, the gambler. alright gentleman, that's all the time we have one of the thing, my guess in budapest and americans certainly think it'd be worse for watching us here. are the see you next? i'm remember. prospect rules the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, the welcome to was a part of the father of greek tragedy. asked calais as

a remark or more than 2 and a half to millennium go choose is always the 1st casualty of war. and the case of the ukrainian war for this unprecedented levels of censorship and deliberate distortions. charles had been banished even before the interstate cause. so it has began, but maybe 2 or on the ring reality it would pay the weight to pieces. well to discuss it, i'm now and join, but nichol, i petrol, professor of political science at the university of rhode island, and also all the tragedy of your praying. what's classical and greek tragedy can teach us about conflict resolution. professor petra is great to talk to you and thank you very much in advance for this rather unusual. i'm pretty intriguing. look at the ukranian conflict. well, thank you. i look forward to discussing it. now i've given you a focus on the greek project games a left me, uh, quote, one more of them. uh,

they saw sophocles course certain that, oh man makes mistakes, but a good man you. when he knows that his course of action is wrong, repairs the evil, the only crime, according to sophocles, is pride isn't uh, what's your book is all about. that the, this construct essentially rose out of hubris. a few bits of the political leads, which, by the way, some greeks considered as one of the biggest fans. yes. but not just this tragedy, not just this war. own wars arise out of hubris, which at the beginning of and as i say, the middle to the end of the 20th century. we have a number of realist, political thinkers, international relations spirit. people like hans morgenthau and ronald neighbor, a co highlighted this as a common human flaw. and encouraged statesman of their

era, the cold war to look beyond it and to compare their predicament during the cold war to the predicament of their predecessors, including all the way back to the greeks and persians. and i think it would be very good for all of us to look back to that example. and remember that the lessons that they tried to provide to us, which professor richard natalie about. well, i relied on a lot and coming up with this concept and applying it refers to as the tragic vision of politics. what i appreciate in your book is uh, not only a reference as to ancient literature, but also your, your political directness. you're essentially saying that your queen was conflicted even before the russian military incursion began. rich, which is an obvious thing,

but it's a pretty well statement of jamaican b in this day and age. how far back do you trace the origins of this war? well, in later or in political debates, i argue it can be traced roughly a 150 years back. of course, if you read ukrainian nationalist historians, it goes all the way back to the origins. oh, and the conflict which i see. i get a lot of historical analogies and biblical analogies to cain and abel, and romulus and remus and jacob and esau, this conflict of 2 brothers. and so this theme recurs in ukrainian nationalist, historical writings. and the problem,

the injustice that they do that they highlight is that the wrong brother, the got the benefits and it should have been them. it should've been here, which was the mother of russian cities and therefore, should have dominated over the great your age and land mass and must be, should have been the provincial backwater. but professor pitcher, as far as i understand your faces, it's not just a historical grievance. it's actually a lead reality because as you state in your book, the conflict within the ukraine stems from the states reluctance to recognize the so called all the ukraine. the fact that this 3rd of its population consider themselves russians in terms of the cultural identity um ukrainian in terms of the civic identity. and i think this is actually a crucial point to uh oh, for size the these people considering the ukraine as that own country, the stop. why do you think the state refuse to reciprocate by fool accepting that

identity? so regardless of the language, they speak with the books they read because early on out there and in the years that roughly decade i would say i'm more following ukrainian independence. they made the wrong choice. well, they made a nationalist choice rather than a civic choice. at the time of the ideas of federalism in ukraine, we'd go back all the way to the late 19th century. it was recognized that there was a great diversity in the territory of ukraine. and that federalism would offer an optimal solution which had been tried all around the world, basically exchanging freedom of

a local culture in exchange for civic loyalty. and that that was a perfectly good formula for patriotism. however, over this time, there was a counter veiling argument made by ukrainian nationalist, many of whom drew their inspiration from ancestors would emigrated to the west after world war 2. and it seems that they retain a sense of entitlement to be able to define what is the true ukraine even against those who are living in the country at the time. and they brought this sense of entitlement. and to some extent, i would say vengeance in their hearts for why they've been done as they see it

during world war 2 to their, to their, to their parents and grandparents. and as a result, to try to construct the ukraine, which was more thoroughly and truly new credit, purely ukrainian, which is really a nationalistic you crew. well, um, so just as soon as it is, uh, pretty xenophobic statement. uh, suggesting that uh, some people living within the country are fever her than others in cultural or,