and i'm fairly new, chris, kimberly ukrainian which is really a nationalistic, okay, well, um, so just as soon as it is, uh, pretty xenophobic statement. uh, suggesting that the, some people living within the country are fever her than others. and cultural or, you know, blood line terms but, and your projects we said in your book about, um, you know, parking this with then uh, ukrainian, that leaves. but i wonder if, uh, uh, it's just as dire tunnel vision. the own government says, or do you think perhaps they, they were also help by ukraine's western allies. because the ministry, tragic is we have no characters to consort, are found the plains of castilla, too, for the own, usually loves the noble aims inevitably. and again, i don't see this particular conflict as different from any other civil war.

most civil wars, i would say all civil wars have an external component because they're always neighbors or other forces that we derive benefits from either the weakening of the country that is undergoing this catastrophe or from a replacement of the old a lead with a new will lead more sympathetic to that. and ukraine, which kind of been and the end is to some extent, i still hope is destined to be at the crossroads of europe. it has to recognize itself as a cross roads as a bridge, but instead, so far has, has articulated in its i'm on its elite. so i would again argue a sense that we are a bulwark against the east. so an extension of the west pushing back of the eastern part of, of europe, which i do consider again in russia to be part of,

of eastern europe. i would also say, going back to a bit or earlier point about nationalism, i have a very specific and i hope, precise definition of nationalism. which is indeed it is a form to tell a parent as i see nothing, nothing since the end of the 19th century. that in nobles, national as a nationalism has been transformed in by the 1920s, already. and certainly by the 1930. the 1940s into an instrument of total integrity of them, and it becomes today the only truly effective and resonant instrument of national totalitarian. now you mentioned the cream being at the cross rose between east and west on the uh, some of our viewers may know that your friends name is literally translated as being on an edge or, or cry. and i, i personally think that sort of underlines the borderline character, although it's historic and political development. i've heard some analysts suggest

that, you know, those countries that happened to be in between big council, big civilizations, essentially destined to lean one way or another rather than trying to sort of cultivate the national identity from within and pick and choose from various corners. what they want to utilize, do you agree with this piece? is there anything your client has? no other choice down um, you know, joining one side against the other or it fully develops something indigenous if a country is to have a reason to exist. it does so by doing exactly what you said by picking and choosing what is indigenous to it and distinguishing that new amalgam from what is being offered to the people across the border. so i disagree with that basis because i think ukraine

does exist, should exist, and it is precisely the best option i suspect for its future is to find that amalgam of the cultures that are within it and turn it into something unique and flourishing. that that would define it in distinction, but not conflict but, but simply the difference between itself and its neighbors. well, professor petro, we have to take a very short break right now, but we'll get back in just a few moments. they june the

at the end of the 18th century, great britain began to conquer and colonize australia. from the very beginning of the british penetration to the continent, natives were subjected to severe violence and deliberate, extra patient. according to modern historians, in the 1st 140 years, there were at least 270 massacres of local b. both any resistance to the british was answered with double cruelty. hundreds of natives were killed for the murder of one settler. indigenous australians were not considered complete people. no wild beast of the forest was ever hunted down with such unsparing perseverance as they are. men, women and children are shot when ever they can be met with squatter, henry,

my rake wrote in a letter to his family in england, in $1846.00 plus scro you as bad as these rightly described as blood soaked and racist. if at the beginning of colonization, there were one and a half 1000000 indigenous people living on the continent, then by the beginning of the 20th century, their number had degrees still 100000 people. despite the indisputable historical facts, the problem of full recognition of the crimes of life australian is against aborigines has not been resolved so far. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy on foundation. let it be an arms race based on the offense. very dramatic. the only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very unclear to get a time time to sit down and talk the

welcome back towards the parts with nikolai petro, a professor of political science at the university of rhode island, an officer of the tribe, beauty of your brain, what classical greek tragedy can teach us about the conflict resolution. professor petra, before the break, we were talking about your credit access done so need to find its own unique national identity, its own national southcourt and the many russian thinkers, including i'm sure you're for the present lodging to put in, argue that the choice that the ukrainian leadership has made so far, pretty cautiously is to, you know, try those all spencer, a limited facility that existed within the ukraine population against the,

the soviets or later against the russians and utilize it into a political mechanism of sort of unifying the country. a problem with them and attracting western financing. i can understand cynical part of me can understand the sort of a political, i mean that's, that's the key or utility of that. but in terms of the military and defense tradition wasn't, that's reckless. what other country would tolerate the whole style stayed on its borders, especially when it's on by the deform. and now my system does the country one of the confusing aspects for analysts. so this conflict is that russia, for nearly 30 years, did tolerate that. so the question in the minds of western analysts is what change now? and this is indeed a difficult question to answer. but i think uh,

perhaps the answer lies in the sense of the cup of power as has the, has been over bill. and a couple of events of last year, even proceeding the offer to re negotiate essentially a nato strategy, which nato rejected. at the end of the 20 to last year. i mean 2020. what go on. yeah. um, i thought or even more suggestive and indicative of what i under estimate it along with most western atlas. the degree of, of the anger of the russian elite against the western by the professor bradshaw. isn't it understandable that most school would uh, waived or tried to delay the difficult decisions? because you mentioned this the french recital of one minute. you might imagine

canon and though, you know, we consider ukrainians, you know, not necessarily our brothers, but most of us have relatives there. so for any russian leader to watch any military operation, there would be a very, very, very difficult choice, both on international grounds and particularly domestic grounds. but i think the crumbling line has been put predicts police. and the, the reason they did it was because the west intensified the weaponized ation the militarization of your grand throughout 2021. do you believe the crumbling narrative there? the way i would say is politics is that a matter of what i believe is what the individual actors believe and their inability to listen to the other side is what makes conflict happen. so i'm sure that the kremlin believes what it believes and the nato, nato capitals, they believe of exactly the opposite and in their own righteousness and their

inability to see beyond that on both sides leads to the i have to put it this way, the victimization of ukraine, uh, as my product i was thinking the other day, how on the one hand on the west is willing to sacrifice ukraine so long as it does not join in alliance with russia to and russian, people exactly the same way. roger cannot tolerate the ukraine, that is alliance with the west. so the only thing that both sides outside of ukraine have in common is that they're willing to see the destruction of ukraine. and that's why you crane has to get out of the situation for itself. it needs to rely on its own internal forces and internal means reaching out and establishing domestic unity, which is unfortunately not, not the policy of the current ukrainian government, not the policy of the current or previous ukrainian governments. but this is

something that your book suggest. i know you see greek tragedy as a kind of therapy that aspires to restore social harmony. uh, but uh, are you sure that this restoration of social harmony has ever been part of the piece of grant in ball? is that because i think, as we have just discussed the they've been a mean for the opposite. what can possibly inspire them to change course for, for the own good. well, there is a significant mythology in ukraine. i know. i said it is storage. has recently spoken out against the inquiry named him, the national him, but uh it actually talks about how we are all brothers in uh of, of the same cause that crowd route. uh and uh, there's a lot of, uh, unifying mythology i talk about subordinate, which is

a con, so they have a day of subordinate in ukraine, which is a celebrated every year. these good policies, these, these correct policies drive for national unity. the problem is they have been misinterpreted under nationalism. to mean this part is good. and national unity will require the destruction of what is on the healthy in ukraine. and then it becomes simply a matter of targeting and persecuting, and eliminating the people who are, who don't match your stereotype. and that is not, will never succeed. that just has never succeeded in human history, and it will not and cannot succeed in ukraine. you mentioned the rise all fall, the nationalist or fluoride movement. then, you know,

russians put it in terms of the not just read which some of the was believe is a huge exaggeration. but while we actually look and compare and then that's experiment with what's going on in the ukraine today. i sometimes feel that you know what hitler and people are wrong can did, is you know, someone who portion of the collective unconscious that, you know, they were approaching in an experimental manner. but uh, manual be ukrainian leaders, a very cautious about repeating some of the knots of practice is misleading the own people. let alone inviting a far, far right, militias from all over the world to gain military hands on experience of fighting. now you can uh, just cards, all of that as a russian propaganda the gnostic part. but what about the fighting potential of those militants when they come back to the united states? when they come back to britain, don't they represent the system danger to, to,

to your own people? yes. but, but again, i don't think of it strictly in terms of naziism because not susan was not even tim goal for cognate parties in eastern europe and even fascism. there were subtle differences. busy all along the way, even in the 1930, the 19 forties and to draw an analogy of any current political move back to a nazi movement is simplicity. let me clarify my point. i don't try to draw direct analogies. but as you. c see a historical patterns or which for patterns tend to repeat themselves. that makes me look, for example of the bolshevik movement. you know, the russians would have me mentioning bolshevism in the same sentence with not soon, but it was a very limited, very radical group that to cold the entire country and change of history for, for many decades. and it started with some national or, or,

or international studies, but as quickly revolt into outright violence and depressions and purging is what have you. and it seems that we have sort of the same uh, dynamic, perhaps of a different proportions, but the same dynamic being used here, don't you think? so? yes. and, but in, as, as a, as an academic could do, does think about the his door.