it was, but now it's my opinion without risking a lots and even being mistaken. i'm in the and we only learn by making mistakes. but i pity the youngest as of today because there's a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that start to just the migration topic. to my impression it went on with the climate change drawn back. it went on with spend, i'm a call. you see, it's, i mean, there was no, that was a real debate. it was idle or, but never s. and now it's about the russia and it's about, yes, we have to fight the russia and russia has to be taken off the map end of that. if it is especially sticking over the map, i wonder what they want to do with the percentage hold up. i mean, yeah, but, but the, as the continent is also what i realized was just the ration of and are russian sentiment, especially in austria, in germany, which i had on the estimated one i lived in from for young, something it was before the war. but i, when i said i'm traveling to the most come next week to teach my landlord.

neighbors will tell how interesting i frankly started. and so what this coach was perception of fresh us with the french, i'm much more relaxed when you to speak about russia, not the case for drama and austria. oh, what are you doing russia, you're that was the mafia. you, you are. i mean, russia, this, russia phobia this, this russian enter russian sentiment has come up again in austria, in germany over the last few years. and i was like a cultural damage in a many people, especially, also wanted to take the russian money. everybody was happy about the rich russian tourist lions and people who made large parts of the economic economy flow because they, they created the companies there about if it was all the case that indiana medical doctors would say, we don't refreshments anymore. now. uh, we talked about this was a full year, but let me ask about what the many people here in the russian describe as russian are your center. as men, i've heard many political scientist suggests that over the last couple of centuries,

russia has developed nothing or took a logical but a psychological and almost a spiritual dependence on europe. we see europe as a, as an appeal to me, of everything positive progressive as the sort of unreachable even where we want to go. but just like in the bible, there's always this angel with the file, restore the gate, and we are always being pushed away from there. do you think rock europe has ever been? what's the rush of project to that to be? when we look at the very rough she goes off morris, i would say the worst that we have seen in central and western europe on his when we think of the wall. so to use when a single other religious was focused on castle x, which was not only about the religion of, of power. well, of course, the figures are much higher than any kind of civil strife. you either have on russian territory or in the middle east. um and uh, the many,

many wars that we have seen in on the european continent. it was always about idaho . it was always by black and white. and the did, or the accomplishments that you have was that you're referring to to europe. i know it from the middle east. i know it from us from a generation that i'm fortunate that's already disappeared. but when i was in my twenties, these people ran to seventy's and they had gone to cambridge to hide back to paris throughout half french house drummond in the hall. then they, they were in love with europe and they taught me a lot about european culture. we stay a passion for plastic and music of philosophy, which sometimes we the europeans, i would say on the estimated this, our cultural legacy. we need it. maybe that's a russian emma grand or a lebanese student. what, what troy attention to and, um the,

the europe that you're referring to existence in between, it was maybe at the court of my mom and sheila and good to were discussing and have a double stare. i mean that there was a strong competition between so many small courts, maybe the big difference from between the russian history and, and the many european history is to have because that's not the one. is that um, especially in the territory of what is today germany, austria, and other central european countries. it was called the holy roman empire of german nation, which they faxed to hundreds of small courts. very smart quotes, 5 in boston by ma tooling and, but that's also let's to competition. and to have miss daniel had counsel dukes who, who tried to attract the most uh, the practice minds of those times. some of them went bankrupt, wider, investing in art or a new parcels, but that's also brought to competition on the opposite of it onto university level

to give you one example of that or management. so you can give me that example after a short break, but we have to take it to right now. we will be back in just a moment. the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on all sides. very dramatic. the only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very clear to get a time time to sit down and talk the

the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to world to part with officer his former minister for the 1st karen, can i so let him can i so before i so rudely interrupted you, you were talking about how this um a positive impression,

all 5 germany and the brothers your was actually rooted in reality in the previous sentries. but i think it was also the russian perception of the 20th century, especially associated with the rule of law because i was born in the waning years of the soviet union. and i remember, you know, logging in which and being very young, even when he was a vice mayor all 5 st. petersburg, my hometown, there was a lot of talk about, you know, german law or austrian discipline and the treatment of everybody as equal before. the law, the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty. when you look at how you were treated or how some of the russian nationals are now being treated, what do you say happened to that concept? the gambling accepted as somebody who started lol. i'm, i'm simply struck i'm, i'm shocked by what's going on. the way law has been twisted

confiscation, cutting of bank accounts. the list have replaced los, this is to put it in and i've tried to come back to which on the, which we discussed before. and uh, let me put it in a little bit of irony, but when you were accused of witchcraft and 17th century, you're welcome to books to the court. you look forward to it, but at least you report your crime, you had done so with the demo you had to apply some children. in my case, i own insurance, by sheer coincidence that i'm blacklisted and i don't even know my crimes. but the effect of that is, i'm not allowed to open the bank account. i'm not allowed to work. it's a defective proficient to work, which i, it's actually defective permission to we don't have sources of income. how can you or you cannot open your bank account, this makes your life impossible. uh so when i compare it to the witch trials, the 17th century, which by the way, also happened only in germany. you know,

there were some in that in the united states outside the united states. but to my law that's nothing that i should you have by ya. golf was kind of more emotion it's . she's more the kind which um as she is uh, she's both black and white. and i think that's actually a distinct feature of the russian culture. and the russian collect a psychologist that we have seen our shadow. we have incorporated it and we know our own the evil on lives, the europeans who only see the their shiny side. but seeing the world in that time frame. i had the many and destructive consequences as you know, in the 20th century. how is this treatment of you, or of russians as bad the russians and the russians are treated collectively as a, as a beth nation. how is it different from my dividing people into hoover and intervention? yeah, yeah, no, this is, this is an old story that unfortunately we have seen pushed to the extreme on the us 20 eastern front by the german army and also by the austrian soldiers when it

came to the russians to weigh. so we may have a 3 to twitch as well. why destroyed and, and, and which was less than the collective consciousness over at the end of the sort of came as occupier slippery shows, whatever you call them depends on the, on the webpage point. when they arrived in berlin in vienna, in, in, in the case of, of a fresh oh, i would say it's also this old east west that come to me and that we can also go back to the ultimate war times. we can go back to the roles between persia and the greeks. it to states, you know, that is the big, far east uh, the wide to the dark. the also terry and east. it all comes back now. uh and the is the light uh, wide, shiny place off of the west. i've since i work a lot in indiana to our markets. i, i know the stereotypes when it comes to the air up muslim shakes like committing the pool, western items fuel, man, all with my $272.00 i price, is it still

a stereotype or the evil rushing towards housing? the is it wasn't smelly. seem of the rush of this like it. uh, since you mentioned your expertise in the energy field, i'm sure you've heard this recent rev. busy nation's 1st name or hersh, pulitzer prize winner about to report as many of the american special services being behind the explosions on the north stream pipelines. putting aside the morality of this issue, if we believe this respectable journalist, why do you think the americans even needed to order something like that, or to execute something like that? because the europeans were already pretty disciplined and towing deadline. and why would they resort to such measures because it's essentially an industrial terrace mann. it's all sort of the shifting of the norms in any way. definitely. uh, i was sure that they would make to up to most that not string to which is only the expansion of an existing pipelines would never go online. that, that,

that's most my conviction. but i never expected them to blow it out. this of course is as you say, the next of terrorism is a pre defense of mesh relations. but they were upset with this topic. so anyway, in my account this, um, it was old time north street, not stream. uh and uh, a few of the session. how to uh, put it i gave a lot of thoughts to it, but uh uh we saw it already in 2014 coming. not stream. 2 was not yet on paper, but we had done cell stream. uh, there was uh, the pro check to connect. uh, the russian terminal and the soonest was to buy gary and port i think of for something. and uh, there was a lot of pressure by the us onto a pink commission. they done several tosh to project and directions. i'd waited for a few months and what's, what's happened and fostering never materialized. so it was trying to the took

strip and that was the time when the took go. russia and a 2 corporation also started for a very solidly and fantastic since you, since you mentioned turkey because turkey has a similar experience, a sort of wanting be to be part of the big europe being pushed away, interfering, and european politics. and so many different ways over centers and now also pursuing its own the very interesting game. how do you see these 2 countries play out both among themselves and the, with your, given that the europe a so positional towards russia. right now, do you think the same treatment will be given to turkish on it sooner or later? but i think uh, took care to kia, still for sure, caught themselves now. uh has uh, has done. it's up to most to be taken serious on an equal level. uh they, while you related at service instances and um

they, they are now of course it was a wondering if, if your practice admitted entity, your opinion in a, some claim might take 5 years since they've created think of a shorter it. it raises a lot of questions, not on it. ok, a hall also and other cities where people i think chewing up and fulfilling requirements and to the, the, to tucker side as think, looks at europe. not on that as an economic partner. this also historic ties. this buff or south east europe, the balkan swell, up to months, the president of the meal ultimate policy that has been practiced by the it could be very much into that. and there they are, there present the ethical ties. but also let us not forget that as a tester of millions of troops living inside europe in the netherlands in germany, burning is the force city of turks. after it's simple,

it's me. i come out. it's built in with several 1000000 of turks. the road that took us today when in, in, in the current climate of conflict is they're the only ones who still practice diplomacy in the general sense of diplomacy. and he wrote about it and your other book about the not the art but the cast of diplomacy. we. i liked a lot because it pays homage to the very complex and painstaking nature of this profession. it takes a lot of knowledge, a lot of grip, a lot of perseverance, a lot of, uh, hard work and a bit of, uh, good luck. do you think we would ever come back to the, to the craft of diplomacy, respecting, diplomacy as a profession? yeah. for that it's, they need also your equipment policy, people who have what tenant at 12 another until attentive people, unfortunately in, in, in, in diplomatic stuff all across the kilt. but we have to more talented one. when you, when you go east,

we have to more professional ones. when you go east and that is the core is p. uh, is that structure minister of foreign affairs inside the russian minister of foreign affairs where there's also does adults mindset that's i'm missing and willingness to study your neighbor. i think him after perceiving yourself with how to show it. and so we have seen it's, it's step from the united states, it's prob, very much practiced by your countries just at the, to the transforming the, you know, transformative diploma. say it's a technical term and us foreign policy. look at what's going on. now, in budapest, you have high ranking us officials arriving and pulled up the best and telling them off, you know, what has to happen in terms of media and will test to happen in terms of, of, to determine that's not the way to tappen. we're talking on the background of a very tragic for that's happening in the neighboring country and you have some understanding of both the russian mentality, you know, the russian liter personally. and i think you would agree with him with me rather

than him uh that the whatever it wasn't that it was on his mind when he authorized this millage corporation wasn't an easy decision for him knowing what he knows what he talks about, the ukraine. what do you think may i persuade him to call. busy it quits. what do you sing? what, uh, persuade russia to put an end to this fighting. um, what it was from the early days. approx, why it was from the very early day and a tech on this. i'm not only about the territory, i'm in territory, this one's saying it never was true to tara tara dispute. it was one about the biggest topic of security security guarantees. and so since we have to have the psychology collective consciousness, geography that you have, and that's the area um that is um, there's an experience in the russian mindset that,

that was this invasion and still most as fragmentation and also the role of this. let's go back to the diploma. see of early 20th century. i always thought that the, the transport of lean in from switzerland to st. petersburg and 1917 was the last minute decision to, to gets rid of the eastern from snow. so red book fly in austin, historian, elizabeth parish. i learned that actually to have been a long, a long reach of fallback reaching into the light a to 9 to development and how to, for our commands, russia and the support of the bunch of exhaust magnets, which was not the most what it was not the majority of representative movement of the russian stem, the money from the out of the money from the head pump. pablo so organized, all that was moving into it. it was all about trick mounting. russia,

the then minister of foreign affairs of austria said before 1914, i a rush that is to big. that's what kind of tech it to that has to make sure that it's somehow implodes from inside. so do you think that there's only a mindset of the current decision makers because they do not make an impression of people who actually studies, you know, books does. no history does, cuz it's a historical approach about when you hear from the think tanks, university just people. and even as now, as sort of the development of, of, of making you plus the waiting rooms, you know, to hear being committed to somehow recreate the plus in why thing may be russian reach of russian or position as to say, it goes back to interference. it goes back to front mounting. well, not even, this has been this fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that audio. looks like i'm, i'm thank you for watching hope to hear again on the world's a part of

the public sentence. and i'm going to play with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. search like why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do the have the state department, c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again,

you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the wayne state the there is nothing that we like more than helping to promote the stories of whistle blowers on. this is palm industry named ship. it's important to all of us, and we spent a lot of time telling you about whistle blowers in national security in international banking and finance. an area of equal importance, at least, and one in which we really don't talk is animal research. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 augusta university in the us state of georgia is currently involved in

the case marred by allegations of fraud forgery and a cover up after a research monkey died 9 years ago. the university went to great lengths to keep the animal's death a secret. but there was a doctor working on the case who said that what the university was doing was wrong . he decided to blow the whistle and he requested a hearing. the issue centered on this, dr. jay had gaze monkey over which can died of cardiopulmonary arrest. the university says his heart stopping due to repeated sedation because of the delay and a procedure being performed on him. dr. head de said that was not true. the monkey died when a veterinary and gave him an apparent overdose of pain killers. he says the vet who killed that skin was the same one who did the neck cropsey or the animal autopsy. he added that that should raise some questions because the university would voss have had something to cover up. the local news outlet also found through the

freedom of information act that the university is claimed to have sent samples of of which can spring to a private laboratory for testing. also was not as it appeared, the university waited a full year before sending sample dr. heck, they said, no one had saved any of the brand samples when the monkey dies. and he added that this was not a mistake, it was likely a cover up. how does he know that? because the purported brain sample was not only not from the kac, which is what a veteran was. it was not from any monkey from asia with short or no tales. doctor jay had de, is with us today to help us work through this complicated case dr. hag day thank you so much for being with us. it's a pleasure to have you. thank you for having. let's start at the beginning, tell us about the kind of work that you were doing at the university and tell us what happened that caused you to go through your chain of command to make a complaint. yeah, uh sorry,

let me start by saying i speak everything i so sit say on the show is my and my personal capacity as a whistle blower, i see these are my personal opinions i's big solely for myself and not for my university or brian. and buddy else, having said that, i do brand research, we study how we see and how the brain compensates for parts that are missing, which happens in many of the visual impairments. and this was the study that was uh, federally funded by the national science foundation. and as a monkey underwent uh, in this quote, case of edge came out when the 14 procedure. this was january, the 7th, 2014 more than 9 years ago. but the animal woke up from the procedure ios and i would miss the whole thing. the monkey woke up from the

procedure and because the procedure was invasive, um the, uh, uh, gussy university veteran marianne gave him and now cut a pain killer is the pain. and the monkey is simply chilled over and died. and i and another witness from montana state university. what happened to be witnessing, rushed in to help save the monkey, but it was all in vain. the month we pronounced monkey dead a uh, a short while later. one of the things that struck me about your case was that as soon as you saw the evidence of wrongdoing you reported it, and almost immediately you were retaliated against. can you give us a timeline of what happened and walk us through your reporting? what were the responses that you received? all right, so the animal died on the 7th of january,

2014. and it wasn't due until 3 weeks later that i actually knew anything was i missed out on january the 27th. about 2 weeks later, i found out that the monk is dead, was not reported to the internal regulatory agency i had to visit is federally mandated intramural regulatory agency. and i got worried because of not having your paperwork straight is a big deal because it's a violation of the animal welfare of s. and i started following up then need emerge a whole hold to so i to uh let them onto the truck route. um, uh were edit and became evident to me. one is that i had asked for a blood test because it was clearly an overdose. and the one of the veterinary and said, oh, we didn't even do the blood test. and then she said,

we'd have seen the blood test bad, but we shredded the document. i didn't want to hear anything about shredding groups cetera, especially though, because these are legal documents. so i said, i want to see because i'm the principal investigator of the grant. i'm entitled to these records, so i said i want to see it started but rather crowd suited for bankruptcy being animal, autopsy report, etc. and it, i read it initially they said we. busy rather than share that with you less, it shouldn't fall in wrong hands and said, what's wrong is i'm the of the principal investigator. i'm the investigator uh printer. mm hm. um. so you mentioned the the, the veteran areas. so the new crops here report to me on february 24th, which was you know, uh more than 7 weeks later. um and it was clearly positive bite in the sense it

both stated things that never happen. because i was also witness and a participant in the need prob, see, because in my capacity of the brand expert, i was in charge of examining the brain. i. so i examined the animal that animals ran in and it had turned into po because the animal that had not gone through the usual preservation brand, pres, preservation procedures that is necessary for one to take out and examined the brain. and so the entire brain would have the entire animals head with and then the rest of the carpet is um was send to disposal to the because and so i knew that sorry, good. i apologize for interrupting you because this is a federal contract. there's some oversight here you would have to or, or the university would have to have reported the event, the animal staff to the,

to the national science foundation. presumably there would be an investigation of isn't, isn't the university falsifying a document, a criminal act? it is very much at the moment. in fact, there are multiple crimes, then this is one of them. how long was it before you realize that this was becoming hostile toward you? the university in the end retaliated against you by terminating your grant with the national science foundation. how long after your whistle blowing did that happen, and what were the events that the events that led up to it? there are multiple retaliatory adkins that the university of which started almost immediately uh, once i started, once i realized that i a, the documents were adopter and i told the people to get the documents straight week. i don't want to be party to any of the that print of the documents, etc. and that start immediately the,

the veterinary and in charge chancel. one of the uh, procedures that was scheduled for uh, another monkey named crosby who was also in my national science foundation funded procedure. in other words, this was a regular pro procedure. they were letting other procedures of other investigators uncomfortable situations go through their stopping mind. and eventually, for no reason at all or completely made up reason of the veteran areas to crosby awful protocol, meaning i my research came to complete standstill. so um and then the university said that they required various modifications to them. i heard of a part of an animal protocol is an a separate set of procedures that i am authorized to perform. and it is again,