is not the good we buy these and nice. that is where there is diplomatic speak. arguably, there is no one under those illusions. the difference would be that this time around rather than a normal line movement without nuclear weapons, don't lie movement this time around. if it is indeed brakes with a shaking i cooperation organization is that it's one with allies who are incredibly powerful with most of the world's population, but with a larger proportion of the nuclear weapons of the world as well. i just want to get onto the fact that you were talking about the non line movement in the 1st place. how controlled would you say the media is in london? you capitals, power spill in rome, etc. because they media didn't carry much, really about the africa piece plane planned for ukraine, and they certainly hardly talk when they do sometimes mention reparations and slavery. they don't mention what you talk of as regards a, c,

i a killing mass killing and undermining and elimination of the most charismatic leaders and movements of the developing world. you know the lions and does not follow to applaud the killing of the on to the i'm this is going to line this fun dionte power was done when i talked about the pin fall as i'm talking about the conceptual west. i put into those tray on canada and, and i know across the united states of america and india and spoken and sometimes even finding the art of god at the moment they are saying what good can come out of africa. and that is the attitude behind even when the so the of the can lead is going to russia on do you play this said, let's wait and see what can be x and this uh, this is what has to be fine due to the bank of america over the years under this i don't guns is informed by the fact that they don't mean they,

they've told me of the world. it is informed by the fact that they don't mean they literally, really, it is informed by the fact that they are not kids on 5th call. i missed in many of the countries. um for that reason, they still order the view that they must have really, they're just unable to see any african country or any of the group of african leaders is trying to do something that is positive then beyond the mind big because they think that they are they are, find the on that, and then he's, and he is very some countries are this united, the beats, and the for the best they can do is to get a 2nd finger to wherever is confronting the economies. and it is in the context therefore that you must see the attitude on the western media is arnold granite. i'm completely not independent if you listen to media houses. so i just

paid you most of a low bbc, a little all 5. and so, or these are the media is it has already on not it is one on the same. if anything is positive in africa the night if it is negative, it is if it is, simon, if it is, uh uh, give you call this content all injections then report it. so the maple database does nothing come come out of the continent of africa. that is good, as they used to say the bible, one good thing can come out of the non service, provides a piano and i'm on. but i'll stop you there more from the right now and lawyer involvement, director of can use energy corruption commission after the spring, the

the there's no us strategic national security interest and you created all, i would say there was no interest us interest in ukraine. whereas if during the vital interest for the russian federation that you pre be restored to a neutral buffer state, uh, separated from uh, from nato countries, the the welcome back to going underground. and i'm still here with professor p alone. remember right now and

lawyer and foreman director of can use andrew corruption commission, you know, uh, professor we were talking about one about um, the arrogance of western media and western power. and of course, one big good conversation in nature a nation meet here is a will around the post rest puts in the break summit that's coming up. now we know the boot in isn't going to go there. do you think uh, someone like, well i'll post, i would have come under a lot of pressure as regards v i c. c, which is a cool with that. uh, i don't know what you think of really it to disproportionately attacks a leaders of african countries at the expense of other countries leaders. first of all, let me say that the i c c, this packet of room was well intentioned, but the data has demonstrated in the money and we just conducted ourselves that he's be old and to stop empowers. i remember during the presidency of president trump t, as my just said, that if they tried to do anything against the americans,

then he would sound to some of the judges. and therefore it is a court that has been intimidated. and the only bad he actually said he had military and militarily, attack holland bag. i'm certain. so when, when do you, when you look at the court decided to not, i think what it is good for now is the code that should be disbanded and under and in my view, it is used as a political tool. i guess we can increase use very efficient to be up as off of the leaders and use now as is in the case of russia by america on the western countries to intimidate the prison of russia, led me to put in. and i have no doubt in my mind, the prison drum up posts on may have ended very subtle ways, receive representations that if the president boynton exams the costs are going to be interested and you can begin to imagine if a print the page and what to be interested in rush into it, right. and then the install cost, okay. it would be a declination of wall and solved off with the apps does not want to see uh,

so inside, just to push on prison foot in may be as i told them, i'm going to display you with the pain on a bus to be with not at the end of the roots meeting, but it is sub, but the international institutions which created on the basis of sound principles quickly manipulate the unmet themselves susceptible to manipulation, and creates an environment where a country is which i don't the traditionally, the d n a is dr. ohio, but it's one to choose who you of friends, the london shows where you and, and bizarre, and then the south from the rooftops about democracy and about suffering in southern to know and as well there are supposed to be security agreements. in addition to shy cooperation, organization commitments that are going to be signed in rush or the rush or

advocate summit this week between african nations. but in the face of african government cooperation with the i math. what does it actually mean? i looked at the latest i am f statistics angola, 3000000000 there, african countries that oh, this money to the i have 1000000000 camera room and i'm just picking them off, you know, 13000000000 to egypt. i know ukraine has just got 10000000 from the i m f, but african countries in poverty with poverty are owing a lot of money. south africa, 3100000000 owing to the i m f. what do you think they should default to the i am asked for if they're going to have a get their country's populations out of poverty. i know this poverty in the developed world as well. but in the developing world in africa, you know, one of the things that i think it is present to my son carter was said to 1987. that a lot of the thing that we must do a soft kind of country is just to make a decision that the money is owed to. why am, if on the phone with not being paid on the not through payable on these,

what is going to going to do to the fund installment for the patient was liberty and put in an ice age. and i, or about the i or the view that also going to be the shouldn't be bold enough to sit in odd this up on medical isn't least of that now that you have seen the french is the belgians, the dodge, and the british, or obedient in a new home by not admit that they commit to that procedure is we, uh, you need to have these say that what we now owe as loans because due to the 1st installment payments and then be going to the go see it shows on the modem on double payment, even they did that on the private assumption as they kind of function all the default country, the only thing that they can threaten as these military option. but people wouldn't be something that ought to be done. but who has the cartridge only bells? the cock, that is the brand new patient. it replies something that is united must something

that is united so that you don't have a few people are running away and saying we are not a part of it. but that is the only way. remember that the i a mass was created in 1944 and is the john body in addition, was designed not meant another was not designed. 5 countries, maybe a simply but i stepped into the i'm a scheme on the i invest the way i look the way to be a is not a body that is a boot somebody does. they want to keep you in constant slippery. you can never on the way on the sooner african countries recognize that the safe i will be when else i am mess tells you that you a corner to me is doing well. do you want to be very wider because keep meaning to fix up or was it? and some of the money that i owe about for the kind of countries i'm money is that if somebody says no domestically, i'm surely days. but for some reason,

we don't want to use our internal resources, but human nature, and we find ourselves be old and there's a lot of the shadow as well. people who want job program on thomas design car own rumble channel they own though, as of this month, around 282000000 pounds. that is already got dollars making a fast. so right now, why do you think it is? i mean, obviously the i'm have deny, they say there, but i'm institution of off from dominique straus. conley for managing director of the i m f f. i'm guilty of rape. and of course, christine la godfrey, i'm guilty of a negligent incentives to a year in prison. she didn't serve it apart from that, the, i'm as a, what you're saying is completely wrong. they try and help the world. what pressure is exerted on these african leaders have to pay. i think i've can use to get here somewhere. you know, i mean the, they're free, the democracies,

what are these african countries got to worry about? if they say, look, we gotta be spending huge motions of all federal budget on debt servicing. most of the leaders started to come for a live there on the government's some of which i'm proud to governments. we have corruption is rump and wish to just trump. and whereas they themselves are not beyond reproach. i have to pass it on their bodies. definitely very easy to intimidate them by telling them if you don't have the table isn't it? don't be a, be a blank look. suppose you. and that is why you find individuals who i position to be there should be an awful lot. the model probably a few need as well. i kind of back when i would wizard. is this the, the i am if you would see it in the army days of people like to be of somebody out of any of that or tennis co window. even more recently people have done, joseph bummed a month before me. they will respond to the i am if the cause that a pass on a level, they have no accounts, ice outside of the country. they did not transfer any skeletons. why does the old

note depend on better for? they had the cottage, but the majority of the leaders, we have now lots of model trying to do it to do to confront of the i m. s. but do you think the ukraine conflict is having these echoes through africa? because we saw how the american back to the guy laughing at t gray when neutralized when extend to be able to keep that info a few up. you ever tray a piece deal going we've seen recently, the breakthrough and the good down between ethiopia or in egypt. do you think the united states is taking a tie off the bowl to allow that is, in effect allowing africa to certain parts of african to regroup and create peace and hopes for the future. you know, there is this or say that you do not trust the greeks event when the be, if the could be i truly general us on the and i never one who assumes that the

width of the country is in the united states of america is that sense means, well, if anything happens, that is good, it is incidental, rather than something guy. just mazda is taking their eye off the ball, yet, they may, they know they never take the eye of the boat. whatever you see them do is a doctor called if you see them moving out of something, i do think that the of the, the, the, i is not the body's not the i is always the own double on. they may mix something top to click changes, which you think in your best interest, but the trucks and the amendment to fulfill the on the agenda. and ultimately they will come for you a drug, a, a. well, that's a, that's a bit worrying when they kind of always, always when i noticed this change in can be a policy way your speaking to be from,

because, uh, give me the, can you and i best to, to the, you and mazda in kimani, the appeared like go see a central costing on the vote on ukraine and now then, uh, yeah. so again, i have role russian environment as there was a welcome to attend. i roby on the 29th of may, emblematic of lots of african countries that are changing their views and realizing the, the geo political balance is changing. they don't have to of a washington the way they used to you. i mean, you have a military base, north of nairobi doing your, their british soldiers occupying parts of your country because that is very true. and that is the problem that we have been many african countries that to many times because of the presence of this main entry basis. it is as if we simply a box yard off from our corner. nice is because the train us so yes, they have uh, the boots on the ground and you have 33 and

a in many ways they can begin to feel with your cock remitted tiredly. they share intelligence with your country with your intelligence institutions. but what one is beginning to see not and as a sustained model, but at least at the level of rhetoric, african leaders that african country is beginning to get 80 they to buy these added to the list of countries where they put us in a few our little school boys, i'm school gods, and if you reason listen, resemble it to the south africa for minutes to ponder. she's been very kind. it doesn't appear that you don't have. and you should never tried to choose friend for us on the choose interviews for us in these ukrainian. this travel over the news that sion ukrainian waltz, we choose to be to be neutral on the neutrality is informed by

history. because that's critical times in the history of the independence travel, the soviet union i did then was supported many african countries and those memories say these and um, the day was pointing the african countries i can't do the empowers. well, now i look getting laws on democracy on which themselves conducted a 130 on democratic on. do you really a think institutions on the systems in the african countries? so then the college comes in uh, in faces, but there's no sustained and remember is that the, what is happening is the african countries as to very much to provide them with the e friend still controlling the former qualities. the british also is through the institution of the commonwealth also dies. so the, the, i'm gone or the portuguese pointless. expand on the merits of us is the one bedroom

on which the due dates to many countries from washington d. c. and the don't i use the instrument for that particular to munition and i think they have the instrument that is used for them. the nation is a military threat. the teaching of done the 8th week on the simplest dition was shipped off the close the atlantic all or india understand a few tomahawks and see how he would behave. so i'm going to country is find themselves in a situation that is very different. for example, from russia, which has a nuclear, which is a nuclear power. old old buck is donell, india or china, african countries run drug armies in any event which can be designated in a few outlets, provides a piano, blah, blah, blah. thank you. thank you. that's it. for the show, we'll be back on saturday with a brand new episode until then you can give it to us, why would i social media or if it's up sensitive in your country and had to add

channel going underground tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground, so you just have the, the, the, the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy from foundation. let it be an arms race is on all sides. very dramatic. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult of time. time to sit down and talk the

welcome to was a part of teaching rochelle less than has ever been an easy undertaking for the europeans to centuries ago. napoleon, despite considering russia a natural allies, decided to punish it for rebuke in your french embargo and lost much of his army in the efforts. in the 20th century, the germans made their move and met the same faith. can you hear of clothes this historical gift of this time around by joining forces against restaurant is a crane. to discuss that i'm now in join by all stress, former minister of foreign affairs. karen nestle. madame is great to see you and welcome to russia. thank you very much for the kind of invitation, and it's always

a pleasure to be in your country. now, before we delve into history and job politics, i want to ask you about your own uh postman as serial transition. because i know that you have to leave your native country due to personnel and financial pressures, your 1st one to friends. and then you eventually sub told in london on which is such a reversal of the traditional immigrant one. because we usually think of people moving from the middle is to europe. you and you made it the other way around. how has been this invention been for you so far? what i, it's now nearly a year that i arrived 11 on the 12th in spring last year. we sold events. and when i went made my 1st administrative steps in, in may 11 on. and i said i need to text number, i need to residential paper, etc. the notary, i went to the lawyer as i went to see the awesome like are you crazy? you want to come to let her know on you assessing and have a non 15011. these are leaving for months left on on. as i said,

yes for why i said, well i have problems and you're all done. does much more freedom and level non done in your that's why i'm here. it's interesting you say that because i, i also loved 11 and i used to go there when i was reporting on the war in syria and it was such a respite. and one thing that stuck with me is you describing lebanon as a place where you found a freedom of mind that this is a very interesting type of read them. what do you mean by that? what it's not the freedom that is stipulated in the course of children in a paper. it's not the oldest freedom commitments that 3 here all the time. i inside to your opinion. you know, it's a freedom that is lift and a sense of lift and left lift and you know, people live next to each other. they don't live with each other. this also affect 11 on was 8 and different ethnic groups. so a read tribal, i say sion that we have seen throughout the many chapters of projected war. uh,

but this consensus, this, the minus comes as isn't as what europe is missing, where we only see black and white now and 11 on you have great. this isn't very interesting question because i think 11 on is a very diverse society is. it's the gay capital of the middle east. they're very vibrant, nice size. but during the day you, you will know that because it looks like a traditional muslim society. and i think it's a different, a more discrete, perhaps way of dealing with diversity where various groups have the spaces. and they also have some sort of a shared tickets when they can be themselves without being in each other's faces. so it's done. more toler infecting and more just quickly. how does it feel to you after living for so many years in your, which i think has that much more sort of in the face more demonstrative way of, uh, showing your identity or whatever it is. well, you know, uh, the europe that i always was grateful for has ceased to exist. and what might,

i mean, does europe, it's a europe where you could do this, let the vendor list where you could test different opinions. 1520 years ago, it was completed and all of that i, i like hosting people for a lunch and dinner and i always had a wide spectrum of acquaintances throughout calmness or others throughout of all kind of estimate religious backgrounds. and you could sit down, chef would be of very divergent opinions. i disagree but need, again, this is not any more possible today. your concept and whether you have that, whether you're not going along with the majority opinion on a migration policy, like in 2015 when i started to have my skeptical physicians on that. and i'm definitely not so far back on. definitely not the officials, but i have to send that or whatever. but i was labeled all that because i said back in 2015, it won't work. how people saw it, you know, and whether it's smell on the russian, whether it's on climate change,

whether it's on your name and you have it the topic that's only black and white. one thing that, that i cannot understand is that many europeans pride themselves on being true democrats and they see russia, for example, as an authoritarian country. but that brochure describing when everything is very many can black or white. either you are with the forces of good or with the forces of evil. it's very to tell a tyrant and then nature. do you think people understand that? and is it a deliberate policy or a has for them to stand like 2 days ago? there was a headline in austin, online media, counting the phone and phone minutes, a crisis back to the empire field. and the interesting thing was that in the chat rooms, a lot of people had some sort of of, of supportive position and saying why we understand why you left your up. uh, and the way you were chased out of our country is it's tremendous enter your credit . so that's a pulled from. so read is if you want us also

a lot of hatreds from others coming up. but many people have realized that's why i depend demik. why are this one year of war and anybody who is asking for peace negotiations is considered a threat to is considered a negative. that's sort of the history, it's all about on the shipping. so where has this 0 disappeared by you had to rational this course. so you had skepticism, i said already when i served as administered, that when i want to see if that's a trouble to moscow or to new dalio pitching, why why no one west the vienna was often confronted with the elderly teenage of emotional not anymore ration that now this is not just some moral pressure as far as i understand. you faced real uh, the office that goes to continue living your life with dignity and austere. can you talk more about that? yeah, well, i am in the, in 2020 independent. i'm extracted,

maybe people have not taught myself, but i, i, i faced immediate campaign against me that was weird. that was completed duration, that i was into a, it was just to give you 11 example accused of heading. and nobody shocked formula on my desk when i was minister and which i had been experimenting according to the look at which the source are, which i the photo that has a couple kept up coming again and again was the full, the orthodontist was the president of the russian federation. so she had that's just a demo. she's cooking for our son to kill animals and, and the had all but most of them for that. but the median last you only that i am taking out to read it was and it is a which on and it was so for us taking that on certain days i couldnt police anymore because i said to myself, but this is, this is impossible. what is going on there? and the uh, and i, uh,

in 2020 i still lived in austria. they, they picked out a dock that had taken from the, from the dock shelter, which had been put to sleep, but a veterinarian accusing me of having killed the dock and in the middle of depend. daniel, for the 1st time and legal history of austria, a dark was excuse me, to say it in years, and that was an autopsy to prove that you didn't kill it for them. yeah, no, they wanted to prove that. i talked to patrick, seriously, but you come from a country that gave the world many world renowned psychologists sickening phrases. yes. 0 one of them, but there are many others. how do you explain this? um, suddenly a reversal of fortune because, you know, maybe it's just asked the russians with re associated to your request and like mentality is with critical thinking with the to appreciation of all forms of diversity. not only political but the any other. how to explain it to yourself.

yeah, but this is what i i'm, i started to write the stuff now because i had other things to do. a book which i called rick in for europe because they are just described. it's the one i was always grateful for, not only proud of, but great for, for that i could go up in that, that i could pronounce my opinion without risking a lot and even being mistaken. i mean the, we only learn by making mistakes, but i pity the youngest as of today because there is a lot of self censorship on many topics in schools that start to just the migration topics. to my impression, it went on with the climate change going back, it went on, we spend them a call. you see it's, i mean, there was no, that was a real debate. it was idle or, but never as and now it's about the russia and it's about yes, we have to fight the russia and russia has to be taken off the map. end of that, if, if it is especially sticking of the map, i wonder what do you want to do with that huge holdups?

i mean, yeah, but, but the, as the continent is all about, i realized was just ration up into russian sentiment, especially in austria, in germany, which i had on the estimated one. i lived in france for young, something it was before the war, but i, when i said, i'm traveling to moscow next week to teach my landlord. neighbors will tell how interesting i fret to start and says, look, this culture of the perception afresh or so the french are much more relaxed while you to speak about russia, not the case for germany and austria. oh, what are you doing? russia, you're that was the mafia. you you are. i mean, russia, this russia phobia to this russian enter russian sentiment has.