the, the, [000:00:00;00] the time i should or time saying welcome back to going underground, broke of single around the world from do buying the you a, this week st. petersburg, russia will play hose to have a 3000 delegates from 16 nations coming together for the 2nd rush,

your advocate summit. but the geopolitical landscape has drastically changed since they last met in 2019 washington's ongoing conflict with russia playing out on your grading. and so i was re shape the world, ordering it to ripples and being felt in africa is leaders failed last month in their efforts to secure a peace plan. to help us understand africa's shifting geo political landscape is a man known for his stand against corruption is when the director of kenya event corruption commission. he is professor patrick blog or general lumber renown lawyer and pan african as he joins me now from nairobi. thank you. so much a pillow, so away from mass purchasing nairobi. let's just talk about the summit in st. petersburg after this africa piece plan failed. can africa, and african leaders and the war in europe there. thank you very much for the invitation. so let me begin by saying,

is that i'm one who is never too enthusiastic about africa need. is it being effective? lose someone outside of the continent? i would myself prefer if i'm going to lead does uh kind of being denied of this type of a feel p o n ya. so there is a brick stomach coming up, lead us of the countries come to africa. i find the whole idea of us are going to lead is going to europe to be around the community sending but not with responding . i or to the view that often has that role to play in the affairs of the and the done must be done now because international, political, and economic i'll get this job has been weighed up in software. remember that many international institutions, including the u. n. y, by putting together when the majority of african nations, i've not regained the independence,

but one must be very circumspect. because many times africa you just but up pulling in the political chess board. all why the powers were that those powers are the united states of america. they will be in the countries all around, shall china on top. and the time is now. that aspect of my smell and the fluffy and rippled denies that if you behave like grass, you will be eaten by boots on cops. so, is presumably a advocate is going to right now, enter the world stage, it has done, i'll give leave for this. the ukraine war, i don't know whether you read about the reports when african leaders was stopped by security on the plane in poland and so on. i phone it is very candidly, but if you listen to the reports that then the monday, the from ukraine or even portland, or different boxes of the,

the leaders who lead the 1 may by the south africa city. let them a lot of them up was what to do with the content in many ways. and in my view, that in itself is indicative of the added to the of many countries in europe, america, the veneration and the venue. great. so that one is candid, these are the steps that are being made by africa. why not treated with the seriousness that they deserved, and it is incumbent upon africa to now recognize that in order to be treated seriously, they have to re engineer the pros. in my view and i listen to the also going to be the, the what do they will not interest you, i'll stick to the step. so i not from on on they doubted themselves. i did not see the clarity on the function, on the confidence that they needed in order to be understood as they went into the

arena. they, why people, okay. and when do you the 2nd position start does that you must be on the ball. if you remember the ideas, the not aligned, the movement on positive, they're trying to do when you had climbing room. i'll come up in uh, center and people are like canoe and to at that time then on the line the movement was not a line, but positively neutral on spoke funny. if they is like something they said they did not like it. i want to hear from you about, well, i want to hear from you about what happened to those meetings in a 2nd, but arguably, your wrong about russia shortly, because your name le mamba, off to the great patrice lumber and russian rush as a university avenue university, named up to the african lead a lumber they. they respected africa that far i'm not wrong. i've called 1st of all remember that what you're talking about with the soviet union. and i'm not the one

who it is impressed to me because you've named that university after, but please imagery to me, but we also know that russia has participated has been positive and sudden areas, but definitely the, i know angels. yeah, no angels, the geo political interest, which they want to pop up to 8 and it cannot be denied. so i'm not going to use this for them to sign it. i is that i ship, i'm going to speak candidly on family. i'm how i feel. and i'm not going to be paid to to, to appear to live crush just simply because you're based in most i'm, no, i'm, no, we don't make too much good. we're basically do by. but then going back to your mind about what happens to lead is what happens to improve as praising the gosh, i will not. but what stick to the truth, as i said clearly, and what happens to leave is of the, the normal line movement as it is today. i mean,

i knew you say that the advocate piece negotiating team for ukraine could have displayed a little bit more confidence, a little bit more back, but that you're gonna have to remind us about band doing and so kind know in indonesia and what happened to developing will lead to is that showed that kind of backbone, you know, advocate historically, i know you're going to say that this time round, hopefully they won't, will be assassinated by the c. i a let us assign, let us go back into history a little because that is the time when the waddle was just ended in the eyes of the game by end of the printers. and there is a bible for the one with the soviet, as a power on the united states as a power and the lead us of liberty independent contribution to us saying we don't want to be poured into the arena. and we don't want to be phones in the political or just book. and therefore there's some kind of indonesia, joe, a lot of manual of india, just simply browse the thought of us,

not the come on up in the center of egypt. and while i'm in google, my of dana text, the view that we want to play a role with the mentors. mia? a phones in this chest book that is being paid on these. why does this all love vision are, these are the, does what p a and what they want? the does. so i'm the forefront why i don't mind every level. so kinda was under the mind luma was overthrown. government i've been setting, you know, was all undermined on that. when he left office. i've been neutralized legal cause we saw the might of doing something lower onset that was a lot the dog and just didn't browse. did the cost in the fullness of time. did the matter tomorrow to the soviet union, and we know what happened to him in terms of the economic soft, i'm sconces of us, an idea. and that is the situation in which the latest found themselves. you an

active c i a you add on to you being particularly the british. what typically the laptops of the united states of america, the next defense, the afore is the number line, the movement did not gain disruption. that you'd want to gain a bit of contempt. sure. the was, but didn't really ask the united nations with this prominent members also did the, i'm, the mind is a non aligned movement. and as we speak today, the movement really is in the history alongside the spinning wheel. and when we see the margins of bricks and countries coming together, it is then i tend to rehash then on the line a moment. but do you remember when you're done on a particular picture, you will find the countryside just china, brazil, on the india, i've been some silent competition to be the lead does all the brakes,

and that is not uncommon. and it is in the context that we must understand the geo political realities of the world. that the, i know all the boys, the, i know good somebody tons in this game. everybody is playing with the cards on the table. and we must not be good when by these and nice, that is where there is diplomatic speak. arguably, there's no one under those illusions. the difference would be that this time around rather than a normal line movement without nuclear weapons, don't align movement this time around. if it is indeed break. so the showing i cooperation organization is that it's one with allies who are incredibly powerful with most of the world's population, but with a larger proportion of the nuclear weapons of the world as well. i just want to get onto the fact that you were talking about the non line movement in the 1st place. how controlled would you say the media is in london?

you capitals, power spill in rome, etc. because they media didn't carry much, really about the advocate piece, but, and plans for ukraine. and they certainly hardly talk when they do sometimes mention reparations and slavery. they don't mention what you talk of as regards a, c, i a killing mass, killing and undermining and elimination. of the most charismatic leaders and movements of the developing world. you know, the does not a thing for to applaud the killing of the on to the i'm, this is going to line this fun. the routine power was done when i talked about data being fall, as i'm talking about the conceptual west. i put into those tray on kind of the and, and i know across the united states of america and india and spoken and sometimes even in the art of god at the moment they are saying what good can come out of

africa. and that is the added to that the high, even when the so the of the can lead has been through russia on do you play this said, let's wait and see what can be x. and this is what has to be find. you find the america over the edge of this idol dunn's is informed by the fact that they don't mean they, they've told me of the world. it is informed by the fact that they don't mean they literally, really, it is informed by the fact that they are not kids on 5th call. i missed in many of the countries. um for that reason, they still order the view that they must have really, they're just unable to see any african country or any of the group of african leaders is trying to do something that is a positive there beyond the mind big because they think that they are they are, find the on that, and then he's and he has very similar countries,

are this united that'll be on the, for the present. they can do is to get a 2nd finger to wherever is confronting the economies. and it is in the context therefore that you must see the attitude and the western media is arnold granite. i'm completely not independent. if you listen to media houses. so i just paid you the cost of a low bbc, a little all $5.00. and so, or these are the media is it has already on not it is one on the same. if anything is positive in africa in the night, if it is negative, it is if it is, simon, if it is, uh uh, give you a call this content all injections then report it. so the maple database does nothing come come out of the continent of africa. that is good. as they used to say the bible, one good thing can come out of that is as a piano and i'm on but i'll stop you there. more from the renowned lawyer

involvement director of can use energy corruption commission after the spring the there's no u. s. strategic national security interest and you created all, i would say there is no interest us interest in ukraine. whereas is there a vital interest for the russian federation that you pre be restored to a neutral buffer state uh, separated from uh, from nato countries. the what is the ukraine complex? really all about we're told is about democracy. other say it's about the res baseboard or whatever that me. in fact, there is nothing noble about this conflict. it's just another huge gripped those in

power. want to keep it that way. the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor po number, renown, gloria and foreman, director of can use anti corruption commission, you know, uh professor we were talking about one about um, the arrogance of western media and west impact. of course, one big good conversation in nature of nation media is a i will remo post the rest, puts you into the break summit that's coming up. now we know the boot in the isn't going to go there. do you think uh, someone like grabbing a post i would have come under a lot of pressure as regards v i c. c, which is a quote that uh, i don't know what you think of really it to disproportionately attacks a leaders of african countries at the expense of other countries. me, it is. first of all, let me say that the i c c,

this packet of room. what was well intentioned, but the data has demonstrated in the money and we just conducted ourselves that he's built into something powers. i remember during the presidency of president trump t, as my just said, that if they tried to do anything against the americans, then he would sanction the judges. and therefore, it is a court that has been intimidated. and the only bad the actually said, the military and military attack holland, hey, i'm sure. so when, when do you, when you look at the court decided to that i think what it is good for now is the court that should be disbanded. and on the, in my view, it is used as a political to against weed. concrete is use very effective, be against off with the leaders and use now as, as in the case of russia by america on the west, on countries to intimidate the prison of russia. led me to put in and out, no doubt in my mind the prison drum up posts,

i may have ended very subtle ways to receive the representations. but if the president boynton exams the costs are going to be arrested and you can begin to imagine if a print then didn't want to be interested in richard to it, right? and then the install cost, okay? it would be a declination of wall and south africa apps does not want to see. i saw inside just it wish on. prism put in may be, as i told them, i'm going to display you with the pain on a positively with not at the end of the roots meeting. but it is so of the international institutions which created on the basis of sound principles. quickly manipulated, unmixed themselves susceptible to manipulation and creates an environment where countries which are done traditionally, via dna, is that provided that one to choose who you are friends, the lenders choose where you and it is. uh,

and then the south from the rooftops about democracy and about the subject of sudden is to know and well there are supposed to be security agreements. in addition to showing i cooperation, organization commitments that are going to be signed in rush or the rush or advocate summit this week between african nations. but in the face of african government cooperation with the i math. what does it actually mean? i looked at the latest i am f statistics, angola, 3000000000 their african countries that owe this money to the i'm at 1000000000 camera room and i'm just picking them off, you know, 13000000000 to egypt. i know ukraine has just got 10000000 from me. i'm f, but african countries in poverty with poverty are owing a lot of money. south africa, 3100000000 owing to the i m f. what do you think they should default to the i am asked for if they going to have a get their country's populations out of poverty? i know this poverty in the developed world as well. but in the developing world in

africa, you know, one of the things i think it is present to my son carter was said to 1987. that a lot of the things that we must do a soft kind of countries is to make that decision that the money is owed to. why a mess on the phone with is not being paid on the not true payable on these. what is going to going to do the fund installment for the patient was to liberty and put in an ice age. and i, or about the i or the view that also going to be the should be bold enough to assist in this up on medical isn't least in the knowledge that you have seen. the friend, the belgians, the dodge, and the british or, or be in the not by not admit that the commit to that trust it is we, uh, you need to have these say that what we now or the loan is because due to the 1st installment payments and then be going to that it was the issue of the modem on

double payment. even they did that on the private assumption as they cannot function all the default country. the only thing that they've gone threatened not as these military action, but people wouldn't be something that ought to be done. but who has the coverage to best of the car? that is the brand new patient. it replies something that is united must something that is united, so that you don't have a few people are running away. i'm saying we are not a part of it, but that is the only way. remember that the i mass was created in 1944, and this john body in addition, was designed not meant another was not designed. 5 countries media simply hosted into the i'm a scheme and the i invest the way i look the way to be a is not a body that is a boot somebody does. they want to keep you in constant slippery you can never on the way on the sooner african countries recognize that the safe i will be without.

i am mess tells you that you a corner to me is doing well. do you want to be very wider because it means big stuff or was it and some of the money that i owed, bath what kind of countries i'm money is that if somebody says no domestically, i'm surely days. but for some reason, we don't want to use all the time or resources, but human nature, and we find ourselves be owned and there's a lot to do. shilo us will be able to watch our program on thomas design car on our rumble channel they own though, as of this month, around $282000000.00 pounds. uh, that is already got dollars making a fast so. right now, why do you think it is? i mean, obviously the, i'm have deny. they say they're, but i'm institution of off from dominique strauss con, leaf old and managing director of v i m f f. i'm guilty of rape and of course, christine la godfrey, i'm guilty of a negligent incentive to

a year in prison. she didn't serve it apart from that, the i'm as a what you're saying is completely wrong. they try and help the world. what pressure is exerted on these african leaders have to pay, i think i've can use to get here somewhere. you know, i mean the, they're free the democracies. what are these african countries got to worry about? if they say, look, we can be spending huge motions of all federal budget on debt servicing. most of the leaders certainly come for a live there on the government's some of which i've clipped across to governments. we have corruption, these rump, and where it was to just trump, and whereas they themselves are not beyond reproach. i'll pass it on the body, therefore, very easy to intimidate them by telling them if you don't, the table isn't the, don't be a, be a blank look. suppose you. and that is why you find individuals who i position to be there should be an awful lot the model probably a few need to as well. i kind of thought when i would wizard, is this the,

the i am, if you would see it in the army days of people like to be of somebody out of any of that it can escalate window. even more recently, people have done, joseph bummed, remodel fully. they will respond to the i am if the cause that a pass on a level, they have no accounts, ice outside of the country. they did not transfer any skeletons. why does the old know depend on better for they had more cottage, but the majority of the leaders, we have now lots of a model trying to do it to do to confront of the i m. s. but do you think the ukraine conflict is having these echoes through africa because we saw how the american back to the guy laughing at t grey with neutralized would extend to be able to keep that info. a few up here. every tray a piece deal going we've seen recently, the breakthrough and the good down between ethiopia or in egypt. do you think the

united states is taking its eye off the bowl to allow that is in effect allowing africa to certain parts of african to regroup. and create peace and hopes for the future. you know, there is this or say that you do not trust the greeks even when they've been be, if they could be truly general. aust, i'm the and i, i'm never the one who assumes that the width of the country is in the united states of america. is that sense? means well, if anything happens that is good, it is incidental rather than something i just meant. they're taking their eye off the ball, yet they may, they know they never take the i of the boat. whatever you see them do is a doctor called if you see them moving out of something, i do think the of the, the, the, i is not the body's not the i is always the own double on. they may mix something, talk to co changes with you think about in your best interest,

but the trucks and the amendment to fulfill a brand agenda. and ultimately, they will come for you a joke, you know, a, well, that's a, that's a bit worrying when they kind of always, always when i noticed this change in can be a policy way your speaking to be from because you really can you and i best to, to the un, much in the kimani the period like go see a central costing on the vote on ukraine. and now then the, so again, i have role russian environment is do was a welcome to attend. i. roby on the 29th of may, emblematic of lots of african countries that are changing their views and realizing the geopolitical balance is changing. they don't have to of a washington the way they used to you. i mean, you have a military base, north of nairobi doing your, their british soldiers occupying parts of your country because that is very true.

and that is the problem that we have in many african countries. the to many times because of the presence of this ministry basis is asked if we simply a box yard off from a corner. nice is the because the train us so yes, they have the footboards on the ground and you have 33 and a in many ways dates and to begin to feel with your concrete admitted tiredly. they share intelligence with your country with your intelligence institutions. but what one is beginning to see not taken as a sustained minor, but at least at the level of rhetoric, african leaders that are offered them country as beginning to get to 80. they to buy these added to the list of countries where they treat us in a few our little school boys. i'm school gods. and if you reason, listen recently to the south africa for an minister ponder, she's been very kind. it doesn't appear that you don't have and you should never

tried to choose friend for us on the choose interviews for us in these ukrainian. this travel over the new user sion ukrainian waltz. we choose to be removed from the neutrality is informed by history, because that's critical times in the history of the independence travel. the soviet union did then was supported many alpha countries on those memories series. and that they was pointing the african countries i can't do the powers. well now i look getting laws on democracy and we just themselves conducted a 130 on democratic and you really a think institutions on the systems in the african countries. so then the college comes in uh, in faces, but these most sustained and remember is that what is happening is that i

forgot to countries as to very much to provide them with the e friend still controlling their former qualities. the british also is through the institution of the commonwealth also dies. so the, the, i'm gone or the portuguese wireless sex fund on the america of cost is the $1.00 bedroom on which the due dates to many countries from washington d. c. and the don't i use the instrument for that particular to munition and i think they are the instrument that is used for donation in the military. correct? that if you would, on the 8th week on the simplest edition, was shipped off the close the atlantic all or india understand a few tomahawks and see how you would behave. so african countries find themselves in a situation that is very different. for example, from russia, which has a nuclear, which is a nuclear power, old old punk is donell, india or china,

african countries run drug armies in any event which can be designated in a few outlets, provides a piano, blah, blah, blah. thank you. thank you. that's it. for the show, we'll be back on saturday with a brand new episode until then you can give it to us, why would i social media or if it's up sensitive in your country and had to add channel going underground tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going underground. so you just have the, the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the successful alicia, and what are the vision that nobody's telling me that i don't get this but yeah, and that's what it's available to. do you still there are some of the,