the, the the time action redundancy, and welcome back to going underground broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a. tomorrow amex, 10 years to the day since wiki leaks with a blow. chelsea manning was found guilty and later jailed for revealing to the world u. s. war crimes and event biggest u. s. military information leak in history. we have a different kind of revealing of truth zone. today's show the form of pentagons. chuck spin a famous for what was coined the spinney report, which criticized us defense spending in the pursuit of complex weapons, was

a u. s. military strategist, of 20 years. y'all gives his ground breaking eighty's report along with subsequent reports. he's written over the years or more relevant today than ever this while the united states, the country with the highest military budget in the world, arguably spins out of control when it comes to defense. pouring weapons into ukraine is part of the nature of proxy. what with russia, he joins me for today's episode from arlington in virginia. chuck, thanks so much for coming on. you know, just last week's going on the ground. we had larry larry wilkerson, the former chief of staff to the secretary of state, and he said, people are building extensions to their homes in virginia and maryland. you're going to have to rim claim does a, just a very briefly about your revelations and the i understand that was taken on board at the time you went to, you know, put in jail for revealing an edge corruption or incompetence when it came to pentagon procurement but this, in the light of the fact the 2020 two's budget is $877000000000.00 from the us

public money and defense. he couldn't couldn't account for overall if it's 3 point one trillion and assets last year. it's a 4400000000 and tract and venture in the us, navy, 5200000000 and the oil in the us air force variance compared to the ledger, remind us what you were talking about when it came to waste. and it was corruption . as regards the us military industrial complex as well, i was part of a group, there were just trying to fix things. and depending on and i think the main focus of my work was i was working on our applications of technology and the excessive complexity which led to rising cost costs always go up faster than the budget. so as a result, weapons get boston, get, get bonded, never decrease in quantities and modernization rates. the decrease the average age of weapons in the inventories increases, which which uh, creates

a demand for even higher budgets because things are becoming older and older all the time. and they end up in order to, to fund the rising costs of modernization. they uh, decision maker is independent on uh, inevitably uh, start robbing the readiness accounts, which basically consists of training budgets. uh, budgets for spare parts budget for war, reserve, nutrition, stockpiles and things like that. and, and, you know, and even maintenance a real property like, got just, you know, repair and buildings and things like that. you know, i guess your trusted southern cost in crisis even though the budgets are going through the roof. and what's happening today with the budget you just cited is, is identical. and what's been happening for the last while at least since the 196 these and probably early are the problem with figuring out what was going on

earlier. is that the data, there's a tiny guy and collect data is impossible to design for other than some very primitive measures like rock long ease of airplanes or are tags. things like that. but was computers came in early sixty's. uh, the records got a little better and you could, you could start tracking this stuff. of course, the bookkeeping system, as you indicated, is totally correct. ok. and in fact uh, what was the results of, of my work indirectly, not directly. uh was the weather became increasing call us for these annual audits uh, under the chief financial officers active on the 1990 and, and basically these auditors are not like business on us, be concerned because honest as they they're, they're basically check what i call checks and balances on it, they're basically seeing it's a pentagon is conforming or any other government agency for that matter. the i

covered everything is conforming to the dictates of the constitution which says you have to submit a report of your financial status from time to time. and you have to account for the money your expenditures of funds by relating them to appropriations by congress. so it's not like a financial audit the company does. it is basically a political on it uh, the checks the uh, the conformity of the executive department in my case to panic on with the constitutional requirements. and when, when you don't pass it on it, it basically says, you're not, you're not conforming to the dictates of the constitution, which is, which is a verb. um, it's, it's against the law because the constitution is a lot of land. well, that's the price of freedom, you know, you know, up the road in congress and the way the votes have gone as regards the

appropriations committee funding that, that's the price. uh, it's a, it takes, but all the other hand, chuck grassley, president of the us and the longest a is having some through, i believe, you know, he's in the news this week actually over a president biden son, a hunter after releasing the f b. i papers connecting him to that ukraine. the do you think he's happy with the old is money going to you create. i mean all of this and it is as a much more uh, happy with it. i don't know what. what senator grassley is position is on ukraine. i know he's not happy with pending funds, but the way, depending on spending money i, i, i know senator grassley on and off since 1983. and he's a serious about trying to get the parent going on to clean up is boxes. he's one of the few congressman or senator is that is actually tried to get this financial.

the chief financial officers i complied was and he deserves a lot of credit for that. he's read your report, right? so he must be talking about it and the card was a power all the time saying look, have you not heard about chuck? so we need to report back then in the eighty's we should be following that as a template for the future. the reason, the reason i testified in 1983 that led to the big story, the cover of time magazine, the correct uh key. uh uh, grassley was the one who basically sprung me. i made the payment on the allow me to go over there visually they, they were friends that the congress was threatening subpoenas and and so i had explicit authorization to testify from the secretary defense caspar weinberger. and so i was dragged over there as, as we started the pentagon kicking and screaming course grassley grass. they tried to meet with me in my office, one by me dro,

prior to the hear any done to his car and drove over to the dining on him. and tried to meet you in my office. i didn't know he was doing this at the time, but i was told to just sit tight in my office and i was going to have a surprise. and, and they, uh, they basically told him i wasn't available. okay, but if anyone's watching this program now, who works in the pentagon? not a scientist like yourself, maybe may be an accountant. who knows? so what's in that uh 5 sided building in the, in the east coast of america. i'm feels, look, i've just spotted something this is like overcharging. i know they're being cases a little bit charging for parts that are presumably down and ukraine. right now the us taxpayer got done for maybe $4000.00 defense. who knows what are they supposed to do? because they treated you pretty well. i know we're just ahead of the anniversary of the of chelsea mannings. a. you know, torture of, of being found guilty. but yeah, yeah. they listen to you didn't they, they, they gave you a good hearing. you were still working at the pentagon for years later. so what this i'm gonna do now if they, because no one is saying anything,

like what you said right now, they're saying that it's a good deal in most and the vast majority of the people don't really understand. even the people inside, depending on don't understand how the system is really working. it's basically uh, the product of a culture on the lucian since since at least world war 2. and, and i did the caught all the incompetence job shortly to find some of the mother every lab work hard working. but there are people that are embedded in the system or making the system is actually controlling their behavior . and they've adapted to it. and, and most of the people can see the forests of the trees and my, my experience, my experience working with people in the backgrounds, vast majority of lieutenant colonels, the majors and in, you know, most of the girls are very decent people and they're very hard work and these people are working, you know, 6070 hours a week sometimes. but they,

they are working on a little a little compound of a huge system. and it basically, these guys, their job is to protect back up on it and get funding. okay, that's why were you different then back then because there's only one of you. why we, you different i was brought in to do the kind of work i did. i was brought in explicitly for that. i if you go back to in my early days in the pentagon ice, i 1st arrived at the paragon as a, as a 28 year old, kept in the air force. and when i came to, depending on i was working for this. um, uh, 3 cardinal, real, real maverick. this current always was a brand was a brand bureaucratic in fighter as well. they use a conceptual designer anyways, payments fine or why. and he basically put another captain to

work on this, trying to figure out how the air force budget was screwed up. and then i came in and i was assigned to work with that captain. so the 2 captains basically started working on this thing and, and we made a lot of progress, although we didn't really change anything. our understanding certainly increased, but i, i, uh, i, i got raised that up and i retired and i resigned in 1975. yeah, so you were there for a while. it is, i mean i'm just say this week. oh, i wonder what i'm getting at is, is i, i, i was working in the civil sector after i left the paragon and i got a phone call one day from, from a very senior 9 kind of guy. and he said, uh invited me down there any basically offered me a job and it was oriented toward continuing the work i've been doing in the air force. that's how i got involved. and so i was doing when i was brought to the band on the do, they just didn't look like it. and. and initially,

during the carter administration they were supporting the work, you know, carter was getting blame for all the readiness problems in the military. but, but he was just inherent in your system that had gone a mock. we saw this in the early seventy's during the nixon administration. and that's why we were doing that's why we were assigned to do what we were doing back then. but so as of, as of now, lloyd austin spent again his independence, the presidential power as well. it's always been sort of designed as a residential bower. i think roosevelt was the last president to really control the pentagon, maybe eisenhower to a sort of an expand but uh uh, basically uh our work which made an enormous progress in the seventy's in the early eighty's, which is a lot more than we encountered a lot more than budgetary were basically when writing was throwing money at the band on, you know, the incentive to reform ourselves sort of went away. and yearly,

basically bought off and, and, and people, people started leaving people that were doing the work started leaving, or retiring. and by the ninety's, the whole reform movement inside the pentagon was dead. steve, just doing this thing was, i was, i was a, i was a player in a group of people who, many of whom were uniform, or even a few generals peripherally involved. i was nicely uh uh, feel great off stairs, majors lou jack roles and girls. you a few generals and civilians and, uh, and obviously like grassley. um, in anywhere others. uh, in fact, you know, even dick cheney was on the military reform caucus. so a lot of people knew it was a problem and it just uh, by throwing money at the pentagon, all the incentive to change, you know, just sort of evaporated checks. me,

i'll just stop you that more from the legendary retired u. s. military strategist, you want to the so called spinning a report after this break, the needs to go to the russian states to navigate as one of the most sense community invest. all sense of the same assistance must be the one else calls. question about this, even though we will bend in the european union the kremlin mission, the state on russia cruising s

r t spoke back keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube, the student services for the question, did you say they requested the look forward to talking to you all, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about visual intelligence. the point obviously is to place a truck rather than to the various jobs. i mean with the artificial intelligence, we have somebody in the

a robot must protect this phone. existence was alexis the welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with the legendary originally had u. s. military strategist, chuck spinning a truck. we were talking about the loss of inputs, seeing any idea or a reform at the pens again, just this week, the naval systems come on is released to something called sole source delivery order. i don't know where that is to locate martin for integrating long rage and to ship me. so i was only have 35 presumably for war against trying to. i'm not sure if you have 35 program much in for something that is being criticized over the years. does that mean the us tax here let alone us simple

additions are all for the f 35. 0 i i yeah. that's very interesting question. we bought about 500 f 35 so far. i think maybe 300 have been delivered. other totally they, they're talking about buying over 2000. uh and, and uh, it's beginning to show if it hasn't passed as operational tests. yeah. even though we bought, we bought all these planes. it doesn't have the full suite of electronics in it. so we're gonna have to rebuild the ones that have been built already when we get the solo suite. and of course, the full suite they've been having trouble developing their and who knows that that will work. it is essentially a reincarnation on a much grander scale than the f 111 debacle in the 19 seventy's. and it comes from a decision process that is basically oriented toward getting programs prematurely

into production. so it can't be stopped, especially essentially it's called the conqueror and engineering and manufacturing development. and basically what that, that's the approval point if they call it milestone to and they're kind of gone, is the approval point where the contractor, in this case lockie basically starts doing big time work on the, on the design of the plane. at the same time, they're building their manufacturing capability and they're setting up their sub contract or network in all the congressional districts, or as many as possible. and i'm, i'm sure they're over 40 states involved in the 35. i haven't seen a, the latest lay down. i can find congressional district but, but uh, basically the idea is you get the money, go into all the congressmen and all the districts and all these companies. and then they create lobbies, and then you basically can't turn the thing off. it's

a very sophisticated game, and it's developed and evolved it. it didn't start off, it wasn't pre meditated, it sort of evolved to try on their starting in the 1950s. and, and, and that's one reason why we can't control the pentagon's budget. now do you have $35.00 is fun to talk about, but that's the tip of the iceberg and it's a small terabyte. i personally believe that the pentagon is getting cold, cold feet on the 35, and i wouldn't be a bit surprised that gets all people trying to cancel it before too long. short because i mean, they're being sort of, oh, i say running out of ammunition right. i mean, that's why the comfortable homes are being sent to your grand. yeah, so the important thing to understand is dependent on budget, you're talking about what 477000000000 this year. what they have done is they have shovel all this money into the modernization accounts and they built what's called a bowel wave of the future weapons. and they've all been,

they've all been rushed past milestone to now they're not spending a huge amount of money on some of these systems. some of the systems are, are pretty expensive, but so far. but what they've done is they've planted the seed money and they're spreading the money around the country for these individual systems. we've got a new icbm in development. we have a new bomber in development. we have a fighter replacement for the s 22 in. so you know, a fighter and development, we have a, a summary wash, and that's uh, a summary, a ballistic missile launch. in summary, it's, that's in the nomic destroyers. new new, uh, new fee, a weapons. and you have a huge amount of money going into space without any oversight to speak of. so basically what we've done is we've created a huge bill for the future and no one knows how much this is it's. it's going to be over a tree and dollars for sure,

and we're going to be paying for this for the next 80 years. how does it, how did it keep all this from the american public? because, you know, we know 40000000 rely on food stamps over there, and they were, you know, the media was, can talk about the villainy as nato summit is a great success of unity. how. how is it that the, the awful, terrible tale to you describe of what amounts to all they got a corruption. and i think you said once that dies and home and just a military industrial, congressional complex, how do they keep it from the american people that as well, you know, in the uh, in the seventy's we have newspapers who, who have reported is who are actually trying to understand what was going on and a lot of it came out uh it, it started momentum for change. and, and um, basically, uh, that momentum petered out. i, i personally believe it was because of all the money writing through it, the payment on it just bought everybody off. today the newspapers are,

are part of the problem. they are, they're just talking about the super weapons. and in fact, if you now, the ukraine situation is a classic case of where this takes us. basically, when, if you go back and read some of the pressure of twice right after the war started, you'll see that there were these gleeful reports about how the united states was going to be the arsenal of democracy, producing game, changing weapons. you remember that term game changing weapons and, and now look at the situation. we've run out of 3rd of a $155.00 millimeter howitzer shells. so we're taking, we're, we're, we're giving the ukrainians costs or bombs which way, which are old costs are bonds at high doug rates and the older they are, the higher the dod rate. sorry. the bio ministration says the dead rate is a fantastic entity blinking appear to be american public saying these are completely different. yeah, yeah. right. that's, that's, that's nonsense. you know,

you're basically, you got it's amateur hour in washington on this stuff. and that is, the point is the point is here we have this $477000000000.00 budget or whatever it is. i have 87742022. 70000000000. and we don't have spare parts. we don't have munitions. does that sound familiar is just like what they were visiting about with carter who inherited the problem from next? it kinda got lost. it lost his presidency because of that argument. remember the hollow military, you may not. the whole military was reagans was reagans of us stocky drawers and and so, so, so basically we've got the same situation ever higher budgets. one of my closest friends i used to have a going to turn,

ford is going unilateral design remitted over higher cost. so it, so it's actually a piece movement, the band to get an effect. no, so it's an a. so is it the usa per pad, i mean, for a war with china and the current situation, given what you've seen, a very attempt to fide rushing through grain. i see, you know, i hesitate to talk about, i hesitate to talk about china. i don't like what's going on with the way they're inflating the china threat. they uh, you know, where if we're having this problem and the grain we're going to have in china. i mean that's, that's, that's an absolute certainty. i mean, so how would you be in saying, we're always, you know, making people want to, uh, uh, we don't advise in people to put money in the shares in lockheed martin boeing, general general dynamics north recruitment. i just think that's what you want them to do. given what you're saying, but then when we talk of nuclear weapons use, is that actually helping the pentagon budget,

the p. r industry in k street in washington, new lobby. the pro addition saying, we need this weapon and this complex weapon is a whole dynamic of debate about militarism hey, 80 years or of course this, this whole thing. uh, 1st of all, we've developed an idea of why ideology a miracle happens in weapons or the game changers, rather than train soldiers, smart tacticians and strategists and things like that. uh, uh, the basic model of the reformers had, was people, people use their minds. uh, uh, in the hardware it goes along with it. you know, people 1st ideas, 2nd hardware search and depending on slip that priority on top of on them. and it said basically military strength is about the german. and if you look at what's going on, they buy things that they don't test properly. they things are overly complex. they

don't properly buy the support material to, to sustain them. as a readiness goes down, there are so complex the, the, the soldiers, an airman, and sailors are reacting to their equipment rather than your adversary, your equipment. you know, if you want a web for a weapon to be effective, you want it to be transparent. you can use it instinctively of the, the are weapons. you have to focus on the weapons. and that comes between you and your adversary. it's a complex issue. uh, the other thing is, is that, uh, uh, the military, the military industrial, congressional complex has really hurt our productive capacities because these, these companies become welfare queens, they, they can make commercial products and survive. and in fact, one of the main pushers for this in my belief, i'm one person, but he mind the lease, one of the main pushers of the china pivot,

so to speak is the fact that, you know, we, we need to create this enormous kind of threat to shovel money to the contractors and so i don't think you're the only person just briefly. and finally, i'm like, what would you want to make a point that you know, you got silicon valley now is caching in on the current account because their competitiveness is gone. down yeah, i mean the ssl just finally. i mean, what would you advise a young congressman no longer is woman then, given we know on the record of entity blink and was west exec weapons contract, a consultant avril haines, of the d. n. i was at west exact to jake sullivan, i work for patrick and contract and microsoft lloyd, all assume is that fame is being raised. the on the jake sullivan. uh, advisor to uh, my 6 cuts out defense the element michelle flurry. uh, west exec, i mean, they know, like, you know, they gonna get lots of money when this war and ukraine is over. you know, out,

i don't understand the people in the pentagon who are the most danger and about how the place is operating or the people who have been at the top. and i saw that for a long time, a in, in the reason is they're overwhelmed by information because of the people below them have their own agendas, and they just start pumping their, their agendas awkward, and the overwhelmed people with information isn't australia, game. and this, i mean this, i don't understand this, you get, you have to get into a really long conversation, which we're not prepared to do but, but uh, that's the reality of the situation. so you've got a person like foreign roy, who's it, who was a joke when she was independent or, you know, they heard your name was the lady because she served to you. it means you didn't contribute anything. you know, actually, i mean these people go from industry to the band and on to the hill the. ready story back to the amazon and they work their way up the ladder and they end up

being at the top of the pyramid. checks, manage, and you're gonna have to talk to many. we're gonna have to come back. good to speak to you about who made all the money out of this terrible war. that obviously is killing tens of thousands of people in europe. we're out of time. thank you so much . that's after the show will be back on monday with the founder and director of the oakland institute underwriter motel, to talk about land ownership, and the impact of the financial cancelled lexi green initiative. but until then, you can keep in touch by a whole lot. social media, if it's not a sense that in your country and had to a channel going on, the run tv on rumbled up, come to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see you monday, the

the little to no one. no, no, no, no, no, not for to most of the location of the unit 731 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had every now through you know, to production with it. so it gives you or show the great deal to bring it suddenly.