a hi, acceptance, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously . why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do you have the state department? the c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way in say the time action redundancy and welcome back to going underground broadcasting all

around the world from dubai in the u a. tomorrow amex, 10 years to the day since vicki leaks with a blow, chelsea manning was found guilty and laid a jailed for revealing to the world u. s. war crimes. in the van biggest u. s. military information leak in history. we have a different kind of revealing of tubes on today's show, the former pentagons, chuck spin, a famous for what was coined the spinning you report, which criticized us defense spending. and the pursuit of complex weapons was a u. s. military strategist, of 20 years. y'all gives his ground breaking eighty's report along with subsequent reports. he's written over the years or more relevant today than ever this while the united states, the country with the highest ministry budget in the world, arguably spins out of control when it comes to defense. pouring weapons into ukraine is part of the nature of proxy. what with russia, he joins me for today's episode from arlington in virginia. chuck, thank so much for coming on, you know, just last week's going on the go and we had larry larry wilkerson, the,

for the cheapest job to the secretary of state. and he said people are building extensions to their homes in virginia and maryland. you're going to have to hear him crying. does a, just a very briefly about your revelations and the i understand that were taken on board at the time you went to, you know, put in jail for revealing an edge corruption or incompetence when it came to pentagon procurement. but this in the line to the fact that 2020 two's budget is $877000000000.00 from the us public money. and the pentagon couldn't account for overall if it's 3 point one trillion an assets last year, a 4400000000 and tracked in venture in the us, navy, 5200000000 and the oil in the us air force variance compared to the ledger, remind us what you were talking about when it came to waste and it was corruption, as regards the us military industrial complex. well i was timer group,

there was trying to fix things and depending on and i think the main focus of my work was i was working on our applications of technology and the excessive complexity which led to rising cost costs always go up faster than the budget so as a result, weapons to uh, get boston can get bought of never decreasing quantities and modernization rates decrease the average age of weapons and the inventories increases which, which creates a demand for even higher budgets because things are becoming older and older all the time. and they end up in order to, to fund the rising costs of modernization. they, uh, decision maker is independent on inevitably uh, start robbing the readiness accounts. which basically consists of a training budget's budget is for spare parts budget for war, reserve, nutrition,

stockpiles and things like that. and, and, you know, and even maintenance of real property like, got just, you know, repair and buildings and things like that. you know, i guess your trusted southern a cost in crisis even though the budgets are going through the roof. and what's happening today with the budget you just cited is, is identical. and what's been happening for the last, while at least since the 196 these and probably early are the problem with figuring out what was going on earlier. is that the data that depending on collect data is impossible to decipher other than some very primitive measures like rock long ease of airplanes, or are tags, things like that. but let's computers came in early sixty's. uh, the records got a little better and you could, you could start tracking this stuff. of course, the bookkeeping system, as you indicated, is totally correct. ok. and in fact uh,

what was the results of, of my work indirectly, not directly was weather became increasing calls for these are annual audits under the chief financial officers active of 1990 and, and basically these auditors are not like business on it's the concern because it says that they're, they're basically uh check what i call checks and balances on it. they're basically saying it's a pentagon is conforming or any other government agency for that matter. the i covered everything is conforming to the dictates of the constitution which says you have to submit a report of your financial status from time to time. and you have to account for the money your expenditures of funds by relating them to appropriations by congress. so it's not like a financial audit that a company does. it is basically a political on it uh, the checks the uh,

the conformity of the executive department in my case to panic on with the constitutional requirements. and when, when you don't pass on it, it basically says, you're not, you're not conforming to the dictates of the constitution, which is, which is a verb. um, it's, it's against the law because the constitution is a lot of land. well, that's the price of freedom. you know, you know, up the road in congress and the way the votes have gone as regards the appropriations committee funding that, that's the price. uh it, it takes, but all the other hand, chuck grassley, president of the us and the longest a is having some through, i believe, you know, he's in the news this week actually over the president biden son the hunter after releasing the f b, i papers connecting him to that ukraine. the do you think he's happy with the old is money going to you create. i mean all of this and it is it as a much more uh, happy with it. i don't know what. what senator grassley is position is on ukraine.

i know he's not happy with panic signs of the way depending on spending money. yeah, i know senator grassley on and off since 1983 and he's the serious about trying to get the parent gone to clean up is boxes. he's one of the few congressman or senator is that is actually tried to get this financial, the chief financial officers i complied was and he deserves a lot of credit for that. he's read your report, right. so he must be talking about it and the card was a power all the time saying look, have you not heard about chuck? so we need to report back then in the eighty's, we should be following that as a template for the future. the reason the reason i testified in 1983 that led to the big story, the cover of time magazine. correct. uh yeah. uh grassley

was the one who basically sprung me. i made the payment on the allow me to go over there. uh, visually they, they were friends that the congress was threatening subpoenas and, and so i had explicit authorization to testify from the secretary defense caspar weinberger. and so i was dragged over there as, as we said, the pentagon kicking and screaming course grassley, grassy. tried to meet with me in my office, one dining throw of prior to the hear any gun to his car and drove over to the dining on him. and tried to meet you in my office. i didn't know he was doing this at the time, but i was told that just sit tight in my office and i was going to have a surprise in, in, in the uh, they basically told him i wasn't available. okay. but if anyone is watching this program now, who works in the pentagon, not a scientist like yourself, maybe may be an accountant. who knows? so works in that 5 sided building in the, in the east coast of america. i'm feels look,

i've just bought in something this is like overcharging. i know they're being cases a little bit charging for parts that are presumably down and ukraine. right now the us taxpayer got done for maybe 4000 percent. who knows? what are they supposed to do? because they treated you pretty well. i know we're just ahead of the anniversary of of chelsea mannings. uh. you know, torture of, of being found guilty. but yeah, yeah. they listen to you didn't they, they, they gave you a good hearing. you were still working at the pentagon for years later. so what does someone do now if they, cuz no one is saying anything, like what you said right now, they're saying that's a good deal. it most. and the vast majority of the people don't really understand. even if the people inside, depending on don't understand how the system is really working. it's basically uh, the product of a culture on the lucian. since since at least world war 2. and, and i did the con, all the incompetence job shortly. a fine. some of the mother,

every lab, work hard working, but there are people that are embedded in the system or making the system is actually controlling their behavior. and they've adapted to it. and, and most of the people can see the forest of the trees and my, my experience, my experience working with people in the back ons, vast majority of lieutenant colonels, the majors and in, you know, most of the girls are very decent people and they're very hard work and these people are working, you know, 6070 hours a week sometimes. but they, they are working on a little a little compound of a huge system. and it basically, these guys, their job is to protect back up on it and get funding. okay, that's why we you different then back then because there's only one of you. why were you different i was brought in to do the kind of work i did. i was brought in explicitly for that. i if you go back to in

my early days in the pentagon ice, i 1st arrived at the pentagon as a, as a 28 year old kept in the air force. and when i came to, depending on i was working for this, um, uh, brand cardinal, real, real maverick. this kinda was, was a brand was a brand bureaucratic in fire as well. it was a conceptual designer and he was a painless fighter pilot. and he basically put another captain to work on this, trying to figure out how the air force budget was screwed up. and then i came in and i was assigned to work way back after. so the 2 captains basically started working on this thing and, and we made a lot of progress, although we didn't really change anything. our understanding certainly increased, but i, i, uh, i, i got raised that up and i retired and i resigned in 1975. yeah, so you were there for a while. it is, i mean,

i'm just say this week i wonder what i'm getting at is, is i, i, i was working in the civil sector after i left the paragon and i got a phone call one day from, from a very senior 9 kind of guy. and he said, uh invited me down there any basically offered me a job and it was oriented toward continue in your work i've been doing in the air force. that's how i got involved. and so i was doing when i was brought to the band on to do, they just didn't look like it. and. and initially, during the carter administration they were supporting the work, you know, carter was getting blame for all the readiness problems in the military. but, but he was just inherent in yes just and they had gone a mock. we saw this in the early seventies during the nixon administration. and that's why we were doing that's why we were assigned to do what we were doing back then. but so as of, as of now, lloyd austin spent again his independence, the presidential power as well. it's always been sort of the same as

a residential bower. i think roosevelt was the last president to really control the pentagon, maybe eyes an hour to a sort of an expand. but uh uh, basically, uh, our work which made an enormous progress in the seventy's in the early eighty's, which is a lot more than we encountered a lot more than budgetary, were uh, uh, basically when reagan was throwing money at the band on, you know, the incentive to reform ourselves sort of went away and you know, like basically bought off and, and, and people, people started leaving people that were doing the work started leaving or retiring . and by the ninety's, the whole reform movement inside the pentagon was dead. the just thing the thing was i was, i was a, i was a player in a group of people who, many of whom were uniform, were even a few generals peripherally involved. i was nicely, uh, uh, feel great off stairs,

majors lou, janet girls and girls. you a few generals and civilians and, uh, and obviously like grassley. um, in anywhere others. uh, in fact, you know, even dick cheney was on the military reform caucus. so a lot of people knew it was a problem. and it just, uh, by throwing money at the pentagon, all the incentive to change, you know, just sort of evaporated checks. me, i'll just stop you that more from the legendary retired u. s. military strategist, you want to the so called spinning a report after this break, the the

best thing to do. so that's the series doing it for you, and you have them by see it the display of this, of the if i, if i do believe the way needs. yeah. the cost, if you're saying, you know, i'm, i'm just asking you to see the q those and what do scroll means, which doesn't notice we are gambling with the future of all mankind. and we're, we're risking it for northwest the the welcome back to going on. the ground and i'm still here with the legendary originally had u. s. military strategist, trucks, many truck we were talking about the loss of inputs, seeing any idea or

a reform at the pentagon, just this week the naval systems come on is released to something called soul source delivery order. i don't know where that is to locate martin for integrating long range and to ship me selves only have 35 presumably for war against trying to . i'm not sure if you have 35 program, much in for something that is being criticized over the years. uh, does that mean uh the us tax path. uh, let alone us simple additions are all for the f 35. 0 i, i yeah. that's a very interesting question. we bought about 500 f 35 so far. i think maybe 300 have been delivered on their totally they, they're talking about buying over 2000. uh and, and uh it's beginning to show if it hasn't passed as operational tests. yeah. even though we bought, we bought all these uh, uh,

planes and it doesn't have the full suite of electronics in it. so we're going to have to rebuild the ones that have been built already when we get the full suite. and of course, the full suite they've been having trouble developing their and who knows that that will work. it is essentially a reincarnation on a much grander scale than the f 111 debacle in the 19 seventy's. and it comes from a decision process that is basically oriented toward getting programs prematurely in the production. so they can't be stopped, especially essentially it's called uh, the conqueror and engineering and manufacturing development. and basically what that, that's the approval point if they call it milestone to in the data. gone is the approval point where the contractor, in this case lockie basically starts doing big time work on the,

on the design of the plane. at the same time, they're building their manufacturing capability and they're setting up their sub contract or network in all the congressional districts are as many as possible. and i'm, i'm sure they're over 40 states involved in the 35. i haven't seen the latest lay down. i can find congressional district but, but uh, basically the idea is you get the money, go into all the congressmen and all the districts and all these companies. and then they create lobbies and then you basically can't turn the thing off. it's a very sophisticated game. and it's developed and evolved and it didn't start off. it wasn't pre meditated or sort of evolved to try on their starting in the 1950s. and, and, and that's one reason why we can't control the pentagon's budget. now do you have $35.00? is fun to talk about, but that's the tip of the iceberg unit. it's a small terabyte. i personally believe that the pentagon is getting cold,

cold feet on the 35, and i wouldn't be a bit surprised that gets all people trying to cancel it before too long. short because already they're being sort of, oh, i say running out of ammunition right. i mean, that's why the comfortable homes are being sent to your grand. yeah, so the important thing to understand is dependent on budget, you're talking about what 477000000000 this year is. what they have done is they have shovel all this money into the modernization accounts and they built what's called a bowel wave of the future weapons. and they've all been, they've all been rushed past milestone to now they're not spending a huge amount of money on some of these systems. some of the systems are, are pretty expensive, but so far. but what they've done is they've planted the seed money and they're spreading the money around the country for these individual systems. we've got a new icbm in development. we have a new bomber in development. we have a fight or replacement for the s 22 in. so you know, a fighter and development,

we have a, a summary wash, and that's uh, a summary, a ballistic missile launching summary. that's, that's in the knowledge, destroyers new new, uh, new fee, a weapons. and you have a huge amount of money going into space without any oversight to speak of. so basically what we've done is we've created a huge bill for the future and no one knows how much this is it's. it's going to be over a tree and dollars for sure, and we're going to be paying for this for the next 80 years. how does that, how would it keep all this from the american public? because, you know, we know 40000000 rely on food stamps over there, and they were, you know, the media was, can talk about the villainy as nato summit is a great success of unity. how. how is it that the, the awful, terrible tale to you describe of what amounts to all they got a corruption. and i think you said once that dies and home and just

a military industrial, congressional complex, how do they keep it from the american people that as well, you know, in the uh, in the seventy's we have newspapers who, who have reported is who are actually trying to understand what was going on and a lot of it came out uh it, it started momentum for change and, and basically uh, that momentum petered out. i, i personally believe it was because of all the money right in through it, the payment on it just bought everybody off. today the newspapers are, are part of the problem. they are, they're just talking about the super weapons. and in fact, if you now, the ukraine situation is a classic case of where this takes us. basically, when, if you go back and read some of the pressure of twice right after the war started, you'll see that there were these gleeful reports about how the united states was going to be the arsenal of democracy, producing game,

changing weapons. you remember that term game changing weapons and, and now look at the situation. we've run out of 3rd of a $155.00 millimeter howitzer shells. so we're taking, we're, we're, we're given the ukrainians costs or bombs which, which, which of our old customer bonds at high doug rates. and the older they are, the higher the dod rate. sorry. the bio ministration says the dodge rate is a fantastic entity blinking appeared to the american public saying these are completely different. yeah, yeah. right. that's, that's, that's nonsense. you know, you're basically, you got it's amateur hour in washington. i'm is stuff. and that is, the point is the point is here we have this $477000000000.00 budget or whatever it is. i 87742022. 70000000000. and we don't have spare parts. we don't have munitions. does that sound familiar?

is just like what they were budgeted about with carter who inherited the problem from mix it carter got lost. it lost his presidency because of that argument. remember the hollow military, you may not, but the whole military was reagans was reagans of us stocking drawers and and so so, so basically we've got the same situation ever hire budgets. one of my closest friends i used to have a coined the term for it is going unilateral design remitted over higher cost. so it, so it's actually a piece movement the band to get an effect. no, so it today. so is of the usa per pad. i mean, for a war with china and the current situation, given what you've seen, a very attempt to fide rushing through grain. i see, you know, i hesitate to talk about, i hesitate to talk about china. i don't like what's going on with the way they're

inflating. the china threat, they uh, you know, where, if we're having this problem and ukraine, we're going to have in china. i mean, that's, that's, that's an absolute certainty. i mean, so how would you be in saying, we're always, you know, making people went through uh, i wouldn't advise and people to put money in the shares in lockheed martin boeing, general general dynamics north recruitment. i just think that's what you want them to do, given what you're saying. but then when you talk of nuclear weapons use, is that actually helping the pentagon budget, the p. r industry in k street in washington, new lobby. the politicians saying, we need this weapon and this complex weapon is a whole dynamic of debate about militarism hey, 80 years. of course this, this whole thing. uh, 1st of all, we've developed an idea of why i, the ology a miracle happens. it weapons of the game changers, rather than train soldiers,

smart tacticians, and strategists and things like that. uh, uh, the basic model of the reformers had, was people, people use their minds, uh, uh, in the hardware it goes along with it. you know, people, 1st ideas, 2nd hardware search and depending on slip that priority on top of on. and it said basically military strength is about the german. and if you look at what's going on, they buy things that they don't test properly. they things are overly complex, they don't properly buy the support material to, to sustain them. as a readiness goes down, there are so complex the, the, the soldiers, an airman, and sailors are reacting to their equipment rather than their adversary. your equipment, you know, if you want a web it for a weapon to be effective, you want it to be transparent. you can use it instinctively of the, the are weapons. you have to focus on the weapons and that comes between you and

your adversary. it's a complex issue. uh, the other thing is, is that, uh, uh, the military and military industrial, congressional complex has really hurt our productive capacities because these, these companies become welfare queens, they, they can make commercial products and survive. and in fact, one of the main pushers for this in my belief. i'm one person, but he mind police one of the main pushers of the china pivot so to speak is the fact that, you know, we, we need to create this enormous kind of threat to shovel money to the contractors. and so i don't think you're the only person just briefly. and finally, i'm like, what would you i want to make a point that, you know, you got silicon valley now is caching in on the corner co because their competitiveness is gone down. yeah, i mean the ssl just finally. i mean,

what would you advise the young congressman no longer as women then given we know on the record, the entity blinking was west exec weapons contract, a consultant avril haines, of the d n. i was at west exact to jake sullivan. i worked for patrick and contract and microsoft lloyd austin wizard famously and raphael and jake sullivan will advise it to uh, my 6 cos out defense. the element michelle flurry, uh, west exec, i mean they know, like, you know, they gonna get lots of money when this war and ukraine is over. don't, i don't understand the people in the pentagon who are the most danger and about how it replaces operating. are the people who have been at the top and i saw that for a long time. a in, in the reason is they're overwhelmed by information because of the people below them have their own agendas, and they just start pumping their, their agendas awkward, and the overwhelmed people with information isn't. australia, game is this. i mean,

this understand this, you get, you have to get into a really long conversation, which we're not prepared to do but, but uh, that's the reality of the situation. so you got a person like foreign roy, who's it, who was a joke when she was independent or you know, they heard your name was the lady cuz she served to your meeting. she didn't contribute anything until actually, i mean, these people go from industry to the panel on to the hill, the industry back to the amazon and they work their way up the ladder and they end up being at the top of the pyramid. checks, manage, and you're gonna have to talk to me. we're gonna have to come back. good to speak to you about who made all the money out of this terrible war. that obviously is killing tens of thousands of people in europe. we're out of time. thank you. so much that's after the show will be back on monday with the founder and director of the oakland institute honorarium intel to talk about land ownership and the impact of the financial cancelled black sea green initiative. but until then,

you can keep in touch by a whole lot social media. if it's not a sense that in your country and had to have channel going underground tv on rumble, they've come to watch new and old episodes of going underground. see you monday the the watching is why is the why in this control? if i give but plenty of the store in this this, you should have an a short order for not imagine just a last name scale. when i am what i could catch at your desktop session, i am no, let's just saw your just is when you mine is when you sit on what's in the the,

the, the not just for the president of the russian federation was invited us, but it's also a success for african countries because of russia is a winner. everyone is the winner. the spirits of unity does the inc. drawings of a joint declaration, leaders hail to deal political achievements of the 2nd of our russia. not forget, some of the while of western nations played on the importance of the event, though is it 10 being safe? such gatherings are vital to keep pace with a rapidly changing world. i think we need a more or less of the subject to this system is so security

the summit is.