aimed at a high price during the war, mozambique had lost tens of thousands of its sons and daughters the public. sanchez, i've been doing news now for 30 years into languages around the world in here in the united states. i've interviewed for us, presidents worked at for the us as major television networks and i believe news should be honest and direct and impactful and this is direct impact the . so here's the story, play speaking, rudy giuliani is in trouble again. this time for accusations that he actually what are out offering people presidential bribes for $2000000.00. and i'm the show

you're going to hear from a respected and also conflicted whistle blower who says she wasn't the most. he was among those that giuliani actually approached. but source, let's put the story in perspective who is worried juliani. well, this is a guy who used to be essentially the most important law official in that area, right. and he was a us attorney representing that district in new york. that means he was the most important law enforcement officer in the entire region. and he was also the mayor of the city of new york. and now he's not even allowed to practice law in that region. and he's also reported the pro, which may explain why, according to accusations made by his own assistant, he was going around looking for anybody who needed a presidential pardon from trump, and then he would get it for them if they simply forked over $2000000.00. oh, that's all here's part of the complaint from miss dunphy who secretly recorded

her boss, mister juliani. there was a lot of pressure to be read his girlfriends as well as his staff are now the idea that somebody would sell a presidential, pardon, seems questionable at best. right. but then again, i am presidential pardons, even a thing. in fact, the constitution does give us presidents as if they were kings nearly on federal power to power, and people are spring them from a federal prison. and president, trump took full advantage of it. he pardoned or commuted the prison sentences of some 20 people including his political allies. but he certainly not the only president who has granted controversial pardons. let me take you through it. 18. 65 after american civil war president andrew johnson, pardon confederate soldiers, who had tried to divide the country, 13000 of them received parts 1977 in

a similar move. president jimmy carter offered a blanket pardon and to all of those americans who dodge fighting in the vietnam war. by moving to canada, controversial 2017 president brock obama commuted the 35 year prison sentence, a wiki league source chelsea manning, who was arrested for revealing thousands of secret documents on the wars in iraq and afghanistan. let's go back to 1971 present, which are mixing released lieutenant william cowley from prison for killing off almost an entire vietnamese village of innocent people in what became infamously known as the me lie massacre. and there was president ford pardoning president nixon in 1974 after learning that he was surely going to be charged with crimes associated with the watergate scandal, but the most without question, the most questionable, pardon prior to those issued by president trump, is surely the one that was handed out by president bill clinton to

a business do named mark rich, and the final days of his presidency. mister clinton, pardon the billionaire fugitive after his ex wife denise rich, lavishly donated more than a $1000000.00 to democrats, including more than a $100000.00 to support the president's wife. hillary clinton's new york senate run and $450000.00, supposedly to be bill clinton presidential library. to go there. you have now to the meat of the giuliani accusations in 2021. the new york times reported that a former c i a agent turn whistleblower who was convicted for disclosing information was approached by rudy giuliani, who reportedly told the former agent that he could quote, secure she, i'm a pardon for $2000000.00 and joining us now is that agent mentioned in the new york times article, who was also a host of whistle blowers and is no stranger to the truth telling about our

government and its full pause in pick and bellows. john carrie accurate is good enough to join us down to talk about this. thanks for being here. john. thanks for having me. let's get right to this thing with rudy giuliani. so can you, can you just put us there, giuliani visit you or how did, how did you get this? well for i had heard that giuliani had been talking about pardons with various people. i needed a pardon. i had been convicted of violating the intelligence identities protection, act me back in 2012, and i needed a pardon in order to get my federal pension back and which is very important. yes. so i know a guy who knows a guy who knows juliani, i called my friend and i said, could you connect me? so he connected me with one of giuliani's clothes, aids i called the man and told him who i was and what i was looking for. and he said, well, we're going to be in washington next week. why don't we connect at the trump hotel?

i said, great, i said, i work until 2 o'clock in the afternoon and he said, well, the mare likes to have a, a couple of drinks during the course of the day by 2 o'clock. he's not going to be able to conduct a meeting. so i'm gonna do it earlier. i said that you said that and i said that's okay. i understand. so we met at 12 in the lobby of the trump hotel here in washington. yeah. and uh, it was juliani and 2 of his aids and my attorney and me, the 5 of us sat at the table and for the 1st 10 or 15 minutes just made meaningless chit chat. and so finally i said, so mr. mer, uh, there's this issue of, of a parking that i wanted to raise. and he stood up immediately and said he had to use the men's room and he walked away. and i said to the aid, i said what just happened here. and he said, you never talked to rudy about a pardon? you talk to me about a pardon and i talked to rudy and i said okay,

whatever. and he said, look, the bottom line is rudy is going to want $2000000.00 and i left and i said, i don't have $2000000.00. i'll never have $2000000.00. and i said, and even if i had it, why would i spend $2000000.00 to recover a $700000.00 pension. that just doesn't make any sense. he said, well, the price is $2000000.00. and i said, well, this clearly isn't going to to go anywhere. so i said, thanks for your time. please tell them. or i said, i appreciate it. and my attorney and i got up and walked out. well that evening i was invited to a book event, a friend of mine had a book that was coming out that day and i ran into another whistle blower at the event. and he said very innocently, how was your day? and i said, listen to this. i said, i told him, you know, you know, the weird well by day has gone good continue. he was outraged by this story. and so at the end of the book event, he called the f b i. and then the f b,

i calls me and said, uh is this happened that i said, yeah, yes, it happens. yeah. and again, you did not pick up the phone and turn in. no, you are to still leave. no, julie, i somebody else and i did not read out really, really honey, but, but then there was never a follow called the f b. i never called me back. uh huh. well, finally several weeks pass. um joe biden becomes president, and then i got a call from the new york times. apparently this was will or was so angry that the f b, i never followed up. he leaked the story to new york times. why? and so mike schmidt, the new york times called me, i happened to be in my attorney's office when he called. and my attorney said, look, you haven't done anything wrong, just be honest with the new york times and tell them what happened. so i told them what happened, and apparently they had gotten the same story from another 4 or 5 people and they published it, and then that was the end of it. i can't help but wonder though uh,

what happened after this. i mean, did you sense that this was going to come back at some point or did it just kinda die out, rick? i thought that it was done. in fact i, i'm so put it out of my head that i haven't even told anybody about it since then. and then this lawsuit was filed at the beginning of the week. and the whole story, the woman who by the way is secretary, who was also saying that he was doing very offensive things that he was drunk, half the time. again, these are allegations that he sexually acted inappropriately with her. that's right . it's more serious than that, but we'll just leave it at that because that's not what this story is about. right . and then she says as an aside in the middle of all this. yeah, she says, by the way, he told me, if i knew anybody who needed a pardon, because if they did, i could get them $2000000.00. she said, she said, well, your words,

that's right. so i was so happy that if she was going to go public with the story that she offered up the figure of $2000000.00, because the new york times did not say that it was 2000000 dollars, at least not before juliani did. so juliani told her independently of julia, and he's a telling me that it was $2000000.00. it proved that what i said was the tree. you know, it's funny because if you look at your case, you basically are a guy who came forward and told the truth about some things that were going on in our country that shouldn't have been going on. which at the time we maybe didn't understand it, but putting it in perspective now it's no different than the b line massacre. that's right. when one of our officials, whether they're c, i a or the president does something wrong, they shouldn't be held accountable. just like you and i are held accountable. yeah . and then you were trying to do so you deserve, i think. and a lot of people believe a part. thank you. so in this case though, juliani didn't seem interested in giving you a pardon because you deserved it. did you know? is that elaborate by question?

i love the question because my attorney said the one of the things i like about you, he said, is you've been here for 40 years and you still think that people do things because they're the right thing to do or not. yeah, julie is all about the benjamins. it was all about the benjamins and, and didn't take that a little bit further. i had dinner just 2 nights ago with julie on a family friend with whom i closely acquainted. and he said that giuliani is in such financial trouble and that's what i've heard because of his divorces. multiple divorce is yeah. and because he's been stripped of his law license, as you noted in both new york and washington, he can't make a living. and so he's going from friends to friend to friend asking for money. that's what this to 1000000 was about. he can't continue to live the lifestyle, to which he had grown a customer now to be fair and to be journalistically sound. i have to ask you the following question. i don't know if you know the answer to this or not,

but she's has this miss dunphy in her statement that he told her the plan was he would split it with the president. right? with president trump, i read that so really i would get a 1000000 and i guess the president, we don't know if that's true or not a just because you know isn't just because she says what he says. he told her doesn't mean it's true. that's right. we don't want to put something out there. i'll tell you the truth. you don't wanna take it. you can't, i don't, i don't know anything at all about it. and, and the president's name never came up in the conversation. so he may have been freelancing, the very well could have been in keeping the whole 2000000 for himself. we've shocked when you heard the 2000000 figure. i was. yeah, i was because, you know, i, my, my entire life is freely available on the internet. yeah. it's no secret that i don't have $2000000.00, no secret at all. so for him or for his representative to say it's going to be $2000000.00 was just a non starter. i have. i have a friend who does have $2000000.00 and does need a pardon,

but he would never fork over $2000000.00 for something. but some people what some people there are people out there. yeah. and i'm sure there are people there who have. oh yes, to be without, without us, it's all started because you are a see age. right? you are chief of uh, what was it just counter counter terrorism ops. that's a big deal. it was a big deal. yeah. these are what years. uh, 2002 in pakistan. so immediately after the $911.00 attacks i took up so that and see what you just said. it's so important you just said immediately. this country was crazed after the 911 attacks between what the media was doing to us and the politicians were doing to us, you know, had really thought that this was the beginning of the end of the world. but this has pearl harbor times, you know, 10 we compared it to pearl harbor. yeah, that's yeah, it really wasn't by the way, but we tried to do that. so everybody was going around looking for ghosts. we needed to kill everybody. and anybody who looked like a muslim or smelled like

a muslim, we were going to take it by the way. i didn't mean that and, and it any offensive way or another. i know exactly what you but, but the whole thing was, you know, we're all doing this, this test for anybody who's so. so that was the environment that was going on at the time. and that led to sure what turned into our practices within our own military, m a. c i a where you work with looking back on it. now we ask ourselves, what are we thinking, right? and that's what you were pointing out. so you can say that again. yeah, that's exactly what i was pointing out. there was one incident, it was the night that we captured, i was a beta who was the 1st high value target that we caught in pakistan. that night we caught dozens and dozens of all, they're all kind of fighters and we, we had captured so many people that we had to bring them into our safe house in in ships. we would fill a patty wagon with 10 or 12 at a time to bring them in for interrogation. when the 1st group came in, they all had hoods on. and i said to one of my colleagues, colleague who was working for me. yeah. why did they have woods on? and he said, well, we don't want them to see our faces. and i said,

are you seriously telling me that you have never read the geneva convention? you can't put hoods on them. it's a war crime scene. so i ordered the woods be removed and he said, if you remove the hoods, i'm reporting you to headquarters. and i said, no, i'm reporting you to headquarters for committing a war crime. so we reported each other and i got in trouble. interesting which kind of spells out what happens next in this situation? absolutely. beyond that, john, stay where you are, cuz i want to pick up that part of the conversation because i think that has a lot to do with how we get to this point. by the way, i should tell you that i have a pod cast where as a journalist, as a lot to you know, as an entrepreneur, i tell my story, i share with you. i also share a lot of what i learned and we talk about some of the stories that we're talking about right here. it's called the rick sanchez podcast. i invite you to check it out. when we come back more with john on this interesting case of rudy giuliani, one that she meekly involved in stay right there will be right back talking about

is the i experience the the question of the money. i mean, you clear up, she was the most schools do, if you look for the initial do 1 o'clock significantly post on zillow, while the, the youngest can use the put body. what do you do origin, but you also still was done the newest frame on the belief systems to good ludy what i see these the buses, the little cute, little dice and says do some uh,

tutorials on both of the is this the sure blue distance of the, so that's the series doing it for you and you have them by see the display of this, of the property, but even the rain itself, you're saying you missed us and you to see to those him. but things go mental village doesn't notice we are gambling with the future of all mankind and we're we're risking it for not the the

a say welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. so here's the question. what's the difference between a whistle blower and somebody spying or doing something against their own country? this is the essential question that john has had to define. consider and pay for fair or not. john kerry actually good enough to join us now. he is a host of whistle blowers right here. so i asked you that question before because i wanted people to understand what the environment was in the united states at the time. and the fact that we would water board, someone which was torture and slaughtered boarding and storage without a doubt. and we agree on that absolute seen it for yourself. we were waterboard ourselves in training so which one is so it's torture? yes, we were torturing people. you were essentially the guy who came out and said, or we can't do this, and i have to tell people the truth about this. but as

a result of that, because we were in such a heightened dime in this country, you became the enemy. how dare you speak the truth? we don't want truth around here and you paid for it, right. and that's why you went to jail. yes. i did. take me through that. yeah, we, uh, we'd be getting water boarding up zabeda and other prisoners on august. the 2nd, 2002 and i objected to it, and i'm, i'm actually proud to say that there were others that objected to it internally. we had, we had doctors and nurses who were assigned to the secret site where opposite that it was being held. who not just objected but curtailed their assignments, that's a career ending. move where you request permission to come home. this isn't why i signed up. you know, the hippocratic oath says 1st do no harm and they came home. i convinced myself in 2002 that somebody was going to say something publicly, and it just never happened by the way to be fair. you actually defended you,

you didn't defend waterborne on, but you essentially made it less that it really was. yeah, because you want it to be a team player. well, i wanted to, i wanted to offer a nuanced response, which was wrong for 2 reasons. one, it was wrong. tell us what that no answers means. what? so nuance response was that your said water voting was tortured, it was torture, but i said in the case of up was beta, it worked. yeah. so yes, it was torture and we shouldn't have done it. but there are 2 separate issues here . was it ethical and moral? no. did it work? yes. and it was actually much more cruel than the way you present far more cool. you were trying to be nice. no, that's the whole crux that we were trying to cover you for your, you know, the tortures. let me back up. the f. b i in, in the person of at least 2 fun was, was interrogating up as a beta at the secret site. and he was collecting,

actionable information that saved american lives, me the c, i a as president bush to throw the f, b i out of the country, the tooth, c, i a contract psychologist, mitchell, and justin took me and they immediately began torturing him. they water board of them 83 times and he immediately clammed up with the thing is the c i n the f b. i hated each other so much at the time that even their computer systems were not compatible really. and so everything but at least to find had been reporting back to the f b, i never made its way to the c. i a so mitchell and justin took the f b i reporting copied it into the c i a computer said look at all this information he gave us, which at least the fund had already gotten months earlier and reported back and they said we water boarded him once and look what he gave us. it's incredible. yeah . and i remember saying at the time, maybe i'm wrong about this, right. the water board at one time and he just spilled all this actionable information, not realistic. it was all a lie. yeah. and the see i didn't even know it was a lie until 2005,

when the inspector general did a study. and then that wasn't made public until it was the classified in 2009. so you disclose essentially who these guys were. essentially they were tortures. yes. and you said you, you put that information out there. why do you do that? because i really believed that this was wrong. yeah. you know, and so most of us today. yeah. and so the most in that moment you were ahead of the car. i was how yeah, sure. and you know, it's funny, there was another was of lower just before me. and we've never been able to identify who this was simpler was who told the country about the secret prison system. i've never said where these prisons are. it's been reported. what are they called black, black sites, black sites. i've never seen eyes, never declassified it. and i've never said it, journal must have set it. they've listed these country, by the way, for the sake of our audience, in case you don't know this,

there are laws in the united states that don't allow you to do certain things for prisoners and prisoners have rights within the confines of any us jurisdiction. so what these black sites are, is an opportunity to take them somewhere else. turkey some would say, and other places where things are done to them that we could never get away with. and they were so secret that in most cases, these were handshake deals between the director of the c i, a george tenet, and the director of the who's country intelligence service. and the presidents and prime ministers of those countries didn't even know that there was a c, i secret prison on their territory. we do this. i mean it's, uh, is there. can you, can you, can you give me some job? is there some justification for something like no other list? and if we're going to be, if we're going to be a nation of laws, if we're going to be a nation that's governed by a constitution, then whether i like and i'll kind of prisoners politics or not is irrelevant. yeah . he has the same constitutional rights that i have is

a good one exception though. if a guy has his finger or if you know that he, this argument is always made. and i've always wanted to make it to somebody like you. the guy we know is on the has information that's going to blow up manhattan tomorrow. right. and by, by getting information from him, we could stop that from happening. i know it's a crazy scenario, but we're at all the time. yeah. and we see it and movies, it's good. can you do it then? no, that's called the ticking time bomb scenario. and they, they train you in this kind of thing. and what the trends are honest about the training. what they teach, the i yes, see a what they teach you is number one that only happens in the movies, right? only, only a movie seems like a far out scenario except for the kidnapping of although more oh, it only happens in the movies. and number 2, even if it were true and you tortured him to get the information, you would have to then take that information and turn it over to an army of analysts to go through it to see what's true and what's not true. and that would take 6 months and by then, you know, chicago has

a mushroom cloud piece. active is actually gather at a washington hotel to throw a party for you on the night before you were taken to jail. is that true? yes, it was on the roof of the hey, adams hotel overlooking the white house. they had a party for you, a party on the night before you were sent to prison. they gave me a gift of a set of handcuffs and, and an orange jumpsuit. and we had a, there was a, a band and an open bar, and we had a grand old time. in fact, it was covered by the washington post. it was on the front page of the style section. while i have to ask you, because i think people are thinking about this, c, i a agents, a formidable person, smart guy, and he's written what, how many books now the relented spikes doing time is a spite. these are great books. thank people should read because your story is remarkable. but uh, you did go to prison. mm hm. i did. what can i,

what was that like? well, the 2nd book that i wrote doing time like a spies about that. now i was originally supposed to go to a minimum security work camp, that's what the judge ordered. but the justice department was so angry by what they thought was my light sentence, that behind the scenes they sent me to an actual prison. so when i went to check in, and instead of taking me to the cab across the street, they took me around to the back of the prison, and i said, no, no, i'm supposed to be at the, at the cap. and the guard said not according to my paperwork here. oh no. and so i told myself, take it easy. there's nothing you can do. call your lawyers when you can. but i, i decided, well i, i ended up calling my lawyers and they said, look, we can file a motion, but it'll take us 2 years before we get a hearing and you'll be home by then. so i'm sorry, buddy. you said you're going to have to tough it out. so i decided that i was trained for this kind of thing. i had lived in far worse places, then loretto,

pennsylvania. mm hm. and so i was going to use my c, i a training to make sure i stayed safe and at the top of the social heap. and so the 1st thing i started to do was to form what i called strategic alliances, which were with the ariens and with the, the italians. wow. that's amazing. and it kept me safe. a maybe final question. you still want to pardon? do you deserve a pardon? thank you. yeah. yeah i, i need a pardon. you know, as soon as i got home without even applying for one, governor terry mcauliffe of virginia offered me a pardon. and a courier came to my house with a big certificate with a gold seal on it. and he reinstated my voting rights, which was a wonderful, generous, and kind of thing to do on forever and under the the depreciation. thank you. of of

governor mccullough. but i need a federal pardon for my gun rights back, and i'm not a gun, not, but i, i missed my gun. yeah. and i want it back. and my federal pension, which i need to live, if i don't get that pension back, i'm going to have to work until the day i die. you're literally after 20 years of federal service. i like to think that i do. and again, you're a person to tell the truth about something we'd always worth it. it's always worth it. we would do it again in a heartbeat. today, i would do it again today. thank you rich, thanks john. the health of man that thank you for joining us. this is one of those stories that we like to tell. we think it's important because as we go to break and we end the show, i want to remind you of our mission here and it's simple, really. we want to be silo the world we've got to stop living in these little boxes truths, don't live in boxes to tour everywhere. and sometimes they matter how much sanchez,

are we looking for you again, right here we try and provide this direct impact. the are the kind of liberal agenda received. the west no. is not the reason based, but it's a kind of ways i really just create an outside tube. proud of all sorts of real estate, practical objections to validation off creating and kind of city on the hill on the

plans that are so important. that's what i'm saying. is that i'm talking about the panel no longer live the so i'm not fixing that amount of money was avoid the mistake dental to share was i've already, if you need another, she had little but i wanted to duplicate the apollo career center. literally i did was i or someone could easily do that sir. no, that you might know the import us when you might need to allow for those that do. if you disagree, since you work a lot for the on may, for us down for the budget, all the restroom, but again, fish vinnie sheets i have computed offers cool lot, but just showing you might be getting the lab or let me know you the look. i feel like i've asked you some history on friends also.