discuss that i'm now joined by good or bad, and you're, if you in problem is number representing alternative for germany. mr. makins, great to talk to. thank you very much for being available. my pleasure and good afternoon to you. now let me start with a personal question because alternative for germany really in russia is open for trade as this party off. i don't know how to put it diplomatically, somewhat crude crude and not particularly enlightened walters. and yet, uh uh, judging from your condemning background to you have an advanced degree in law utilized in august for then the london school of economics. you wrote a book on emanuel con, with such a scholarly and intellectual background. why did you off for this particular party? well, let me make 2 points 1st. it's greg. yes, i did study the small philosophy and politics at at oxford university and i've written books on

a manual cab's legal reasoning. and the european court of justice. these are scholarly books and the adults are badly political. now, there is a common misconception that if you've received a decent education, you know, she's willing to be turned into a good, politically correct, liberal, international list and perfectionist. that is not by you. i think the purpose of education is to make you critical, including self critical and enlightened. and it should enable you to question received westerns as president opinions. and that's what i've been doing all day long at now to my 2nd point, the a f d a d is a young party. and what you've tried to put spa as well, possibly diplomatically, as i think natural seems to bear in mind,

we are young party, which means we have lots of edits of politicians. it is correct to say that some of my colleagues are perhaps not always chosen. the most last and due to a magic way of putting it, however, it matches of politics. you also sometimes have to be political to express, i'm talking about tubes. and then secondly, you can imagine we all talk to you that is questioning practically every aspect of the political consensus, a west germany in particular sense no more. there is a relentless pain. be waged against us by the potty. yay finance. the, just as i was kind of late or is last, let's pull that down to the campaign against russia as president, 24 by the same media in germany. speaking about the matters of politics. i know that in the, in europe and problem if you are

a member of the identity and democracy group as well as a participant of the conference on the future of your how do you see the relationship between identity and democracy and do they have any place in the future of europe, as well as to questions we are asking here, the relationship is a curse. once we know that a few democratic countries that uh, they don't have a strong sense of identity, usually that's a sense of national identity, otherwise, exception switzerland, disability. so i'll put, although you can say that have a sense of national identity based on a particular political emancipation struggle against interior powers of all of them . so it's, as we said, it has an identity which is multinational. and the same to some extent could be said above the united states, all the democracy has generally involved in the case in the,

in the context of nation states. now to the 2nd part of your question, whether the opposite is very clear, both democracy and, and i didn't t, especially national identity in western europe. and the french, mrs. followed by the president to the european commission has announced that she wants to bring the homes of millions of non european people to europe in the next 10 to 15 years. in my, you, national identity cannot survive such a massive influx of people that have no causal rooms in europe. and if i may, a search point um i had on the calculations on that roughly as present was the of germany's population is partly for any large and

present trends of immigration continue even that to diminish level. and this is all in both rate remains as low as it stays. germany was face to be able to jar t john in the country by something like 2075. and mister brad, can i? uh, so he's here for a 2nd because i'm sure you know what the people on the other side of the political spectrum would say, and they would see your comments as xena fall big. but having read with you have a sad about migration. i think you're making more of a sudden, social and institutional argument that it takes a, you know, a certain percentage of people, a lot of in society are rooted in his culture. what it is in its ways of lives to preserve that way of life and to develop it and to move it forward. why do you think i mean, the field of science so see old you so well developed across europe? i mean, there is a department to fulfillment in any major university. why is it not taken as

a practical consideration? why is it always discussed within the framework of publicity or skin color? where's, you know, traditions they do have certain and very practical value for ensuring stable and comfortable lives by you one by point very clearly i need to elaborate on this. i think is, society can be stabilized by very great rapid changes also in the speed of immigration. now why is this further, the sudden simple view which was calling place and you're up until about 30 years ago nowadays, ostracized some kind of i'll try the incentive. so it'd be cute view. now the reason for this, eh, it seems to be quite a. yeah. because the kind of liberal agenda we see the west now is not really reason based, but it's a kind of quays i really just creed. and that file to crowd out of

all sorts of realistic, practical objections to validation of creating a kind of city on the hill on of okay, can i ask you about one other thing that has much more direct relevance to where i am in russia and where my relatives are in the ukraine, i'm talking about the war in europe. and i think here again, another very important to you were put in traditional was it's not broken down. totally rejected. and i'm talking about this notion on the european a balance of power or balance of security because you're of, as we all know, how has had many wars. but one of the resolves on that war is a 2nd. diplomatic and international relations culture that is rooted in the balance of interest and about a balance of power and for a long time it was respected and no one could argue that the long piece that i

mentioned in the beginning was also a result of that. but distribution seems to be fully rejected in the case of ukraine, because no russia, security interest even taking into consideration and haven't been taken for quite some time. and secondly, the europeans have when we put all their, you know, security since abilities in the american vasquez. why, what did happen to europe that has been tried and tested by war so many for so for such a long time? well, the sad fact is that the launch uh that the last great european war is now what he's a nearly a was it happened a few years ago. my mother experienced states as a child. and the last thing she wants is, and donald more in charge and ration for the responses perpetual visit that'd be provided. but most europeans, not much younger now,

and we've seen significant changes in the educational system where history often stops in the post era. so much as football, i think that is one reason. secondly, i think you are slightly misrepresenting the tradition of realism that you are cuz you're thinking, i agree, it's a very important tradition. but because you're dominated intellectually for several centuries, practically, or the traditions of liberal, all international relations also originate in europe. so if you take a manual tent, he was surprised to introduce the national the lead goes nations. this is the whole idea regarding tradition to european a international relations c k. so the religious tradition is why important, why lab sort of the right, it's be forgotten. i think the reason is part of the that, you know, is

a much diminished continent. the europeans don't need any way and you don't go and you've got a positional input turns. well, some people do is they want to be at least the last. the great is models on the well in the world. and i think that's part of what is made to back to europe after it started the most amazing job. well, hey, you know, i'm studying psychology on the side. i have a great interest in the psychology of carl young and that he has actually explored the trends in the collective unconscious quite extensively. she wrote a lot about the knots, a phenomenon as, as a suppression. all file where you have to, we are and you know, when uh, when i see these people that you are also referring to only concerns with the future. only concerns with the illusions north, as being informed by the past, by that own history isn't it?

i know it comes across as a form of south only nation that form a self in a holy nation. we know it from psychology, it always produces hatred, then not just hatred of somebody else, but it's usually also self hatred that down it is projected on to other nations. do you think it has anything to do with the current, the demonization of rush or perhaps other countries like china, where you run this is slightly made. oh cool. so what do i say in the cold? but there was, there is an event, a free to is need. sure, it is a characterization of certain relations make some very similar points. i, myself made the point, this impotence maybe at the source of age diminished position. ha. i think in the case of russia, there's another element. russia is labeled understood in western europe. the

final point is that west germany, in particular, has been integrated into western structures for 7075 years now. whether it reads a very great amount to pro, but got a and a you to gratian into western system. so thinking through education and to get his job in the out of town from west germany. but at least he, i think there is a much greater skepticism towards the receive western, no narrative. so it's costly, an east west to buy the europe because at the present dimension is complicated then from russia's positions, not necessarily the favorable way. because then you 30 years ago, um 35 years ago the soviet union dominated eastern europe. so i think the president is set a set of uncertain eastern europe is security, good sense. okay,

well mister back, we have to take a very short break right now for the sake of our editorial security, but he will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy on foundation. let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. the only personally i'm going to resist, i don't see how that strategy will be successful. very good. take care of time,

time to sit down and talk the welcome back to one's apartments where we are back a or a p impala minutes member, representing alternative for germany and mr. breton before they break, we discussed the, you know, this multi faceted and very complicated attitude that the some germans have to with russia. and i've heard the say in one of the other interviews that many of your colleagues and the european parliament as filled with hatred, not only for russia, but for the kind of conservative traditionalism that russia represents. do you think these people who are filled with hatred, do they even understand the, what the russia tries to leave out in the world,

whether it tries to base its under identity on where you have to be in the eyes of european honda? but we have about one on one and a half minutes. so i often have to be had to use short time traditional conservatism was such as salt. and i think the factors that play russia, i think, such as basic issue such as the diesel standards of living, ask you a very important the government has to be very concerned about security, the basic comforts to the population. that's one aspect of on the other line, a point is in your book, i think historically education has suffered. so for many europeans, they tend to reject everything class to something like 1960 so that his history starts to the sexual and cultural revolution of the 1950s

. and then we checked anything that went on before. so i think that is part of the progress based upon the decision makers in your now operate in a strictly a historical manner. they sometimes stole historical parallels, but they are very involved now and you mentioned the russians government, the focus on the standards of living and your pin, uh, positions uh on the country, often talk about and spit, aspirational and inspirational values, but ensuring basic safety, ensuring basic um services, there's not just the value, insincere, 2 of the government, and that maybe it's just my russian vice but i wonder is part of the problem here is indeed think of the conflict between governmental judges and governmental aspirations. and the i found the total rejection of the europeans of the former, because a, if we analyze the recent decisions,

including the binding of all trades with russia, it looked like the living center as if he were being citizens a, not the 1st priority in. yeah, absolutely. yeah, i think for the last for the 5, yes, living standards for at least possible relation, most of your have not improved this as simple as that. now they are declining as a result of the inflation, which is at least partly resolved to be co dialogue. dogs plus the bodies in ukraine and the kind of inspirational and s rational value catalogue, that all politicians are constantly invoking at these ideas are very far removed from the concern of those most people. so yes, in that respect. yeah, absolutely right. most european governments say that people and possibly that's

also what that's of and the core of the ukrainian crisis. because i think the government, the refresher for years have been stating that they have a duty to protect back interest, secure and interest. it's not just an aspiration of value, it's something that we have to act upon. we have our military for that besides reason, but all we current in response was this some exploration of value. so some of you are being politicians and the ukrainians. now, i wonder if this comment, if this dilemma between or you know, part of the beauties and aspirational valleys, if it could have been resolved without an arm, possibly given your understanding what's been happening in your brain not have from february of last year. but the a couple of decades prior to that, i think you've given me a lot of times arise and that makes altering the question easy. because i think that be that a little i be added to the rush. i'd be immediately in the immediate coast. well, okay, so you got to was west of your own. my own country is taken as paid. remarkably

generous. if your countries of treat each other, the as well as russia has in the last 33 to 34 years, russia agreed to leave the verification without a body practically nbc. when we touched the right, i just want to say that this is the way russia treated just germany of this is a historic tradition of resolving conflict for us. right? that was the same case with napoleon when it was russian welcoming friends back into the family of europe and countries, not taking any contribution. and it's a consistent then, philosophical approach that the russian state has taken over centuries. not just over the last century, i gave you the example that i do about best. so what that was, if you want me to put the the board general tubs, there was a very, a distinct approach to see them. so relations with west west of

europe, and that's the launch the well not for the re boss. so then was that a little that much i bought a me ton. so is your cost of the bake concessions and your cost of k baycove. it shows initial cost saver ton. well then at some stage you may change your approach. and i think what we have to realize is that you'd have to get the waves and driven off by the united states to move out to so to russia, in russia, except the great deal to beach is really expensive. so the europeans thoughts and the american sizes you, they could just march about forward. and that does surprise those rational doesn't degree. now the european, so i think i gave you the surprised the bad because i see have a more rational attitude. they. we got a huge bull as a kind of a power again,

the other p as often distracted by the idea of this think well, um, i guess it's easy to be an ideal list when the time is a good and i, i've heard many experts say that the e u us partnership was always on the american terms, but at least you have the benefit of the for and direct investments and relatively fair trade. but it's no longer the case. i think the terms of your partnership changing very rapidly and you're bound to give much more and receive much, much less there. i mean, the american policy towards your, of a, it's pretty cool cuz it's not predatory at this point of time, given the industrial capacity. is it that are being transferred to the united states? now, how long do you think it will take until be european voters? they'll be you are a painful edition, but the european voters will fail the pinch and we'll demand something, something different from that leaders. i was chosen very hoss, was full kitchen,

private address. i like to defend the united states and this would gone. yeah, just being rational from the point of view, i think is the european reaction. that's very nice. he said for that is the follow on to the europeans, primarily allowed themselves to be put in that position. the united states is just doing mostly in the interest to be fat, but you are right. in another respect, i think the off the wall during the cold war, the united states required compliance in military and foreign policy matches. but they had tut guarantee a highly the standards that's come to that. the alliance with the united states. western integration is becoming increasingly expensive for your many europeans as yet to minority way from the twigs best man. how the law politicians

also there is a di call to be how long it will take. i cannot tell you, by the way, can i ask her? this is something that is absolutely puzzling to many of us in russia. in particular, those who live in saint petersburg, which is a city with huge german inherited china, very strong cultural ties with germany. and this is also a city where i'm many of the gas projects originated. for example, the north stream pipelines were built uh from the, from that side of the bolted cost and given all the explosions. and the recent, the statements, for example, from uh how, how, how we, uh, prime minister uh, oregon. uh saying that it seemed doesn't exclude it as a possible repeat of sites incidents. i just wonder, do you think you do your pains with amber? want to know what actually happened to enter that own energy infrastructure on the, i mean, i understand their feel refresher,

but on the fearful that something like that could happen in europe at this day and age the clear questions i can give you. yeah, i'll says the governments don't want to know the people for the most part, had a suspicion. what happens uh, and what day they couldn't care less or what? the oppressive climate, which makes it very difficult to go on a spade a spade, because our government has systematically a void, a serious investigation awful carried out the attacks that tended agent. they do not wish it. they don't. well, they know that they don't wish it to be widely that i know i hear part of that, but the russia has experience a number of terrorist attacks by ukrainian militants just today. and i think it's pretty clear that if the waterville come, ever closer to russia,

russia will respond. do you think people in europe understand that? uh, you know, the, the time for illusions is over the, if there is a real war on the ground in russia, in ukraine, and if it continues, it may come to europe as well. no, they don't understand that property speaking. i think strong people as i'm kind of a mobile, i'm office the but the last great. what happened so long ago that most people think this better can somehow be localized if they were fully aware that this bull may escalate. because there's a interesting paradox. let's assume the waste is right, and they can really push russia back. uh, get your grade to push my shot back for would you be so can you, can you spell out the, the, i'll be you? yes, i just, i just some of the summarize what some people,

i think he missed the grades actually said that because russia isn't sending it's whole. i mean, they may push it back. i don't see that there's europe, kids had adequate conception. they didn't these circumstances a great power or life about shot, well respond with any means edits, disposal, i'd like to be i, i'd like to leave it as an id. tell them it is that it's clear what i mean. i guess the best european is our web is absolutely not. and so what do you not a states or so? so we'll china. i mean, it's a, it's a, you know, international or politics. one, a one. i mean, it's the, the basic good thing that the people study and international affairs plus. now can i ask you? and the last, the very last question because you don't sound very optimistic, but what's your best hold for the next couple of years as far as russia,

europe and the whole world is concerned? yes, you're right. i know by disposition, an optimist, and the last decade has generally to me, right. but obviously we have to know, but we can also said that even at the end, tomorrow we should call to at least one law street. so i think we have to reach another standing in the ukraine. this whole has to be brought to it. and i can give you an easy solution of what those might be. but what i don't know is that this is a grave danger to you. and he's already wrecking our economy, is no one is not doing any one. any good, certainly not to your so we have to do what we can to aggregate. mr. beth, it's been a great pleasure talking to thank you very much for your time. but as you and i couldn't agree more with the video, nice websites, you very much thank you. thank you for watching. hope to hear again was

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the, or the, the russian states never as tight as on the phone. and the most sense be the best english i'll send, send up the send, the 6595 and speedy. what else calls question about this? even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on the russians cruising and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. what question did you say from stephen twist,

which is the below and a welcome across stock? were all things are considered non funeral about as a cranes much over hyped counter offensive stalls? western leaders have made a remarkable rhetorical pivot, buying and says poor has already lost the war. the secretary of state blinking says russia has lost their narrative is a form of pseudo reality because making the claim your brain is winnie,