to move this relationship for new people to the the the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the by the administration in nature world are fascinated with soft power and rhetorical ships. remember, ukraine will win and ukraine is winning. now here russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality. the

cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, matthew and rent in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian. he is founder and editor of the last american vagabond and host of the daily wrap up. and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv correspondence, right job in cross lock, rolls and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate matthew, let me go to you 1st. i mean, one of the things i find really fascinating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we, when we are you currently, ukraine will weigh a new crane is winning. well, now we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by implication, does that mean ukraine has one safety business? this hold discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense. and it's not naming a lot of fraction, matthew, and non true, your thoughts to be very short niche. that is what it is and imply,

implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic trick of soft vestry. and, and the idea would be that if, if a that's be, if there is indication here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to convey. a sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past. but i think that it's wearing off a very, very deeply right now is there's a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population with which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year really, since the 1st days of the military intervention began. and uh, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations of europe and including the united states as well with destruction of ability to basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same

blade as they used to be there. you know, ryan is very interesting. last week robert f kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show and of course hannity going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was remarkable. you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with when met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, i whole heartedly agree. and i think what's interesting, the, the, what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now, is this just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they're constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe and you see this in, in, you know,

discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories . well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think. and the truth is, as you're seeing and that example is, you know, that they are asking these questions. and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on, on myself, included that what's going on. and ukraine is predominantly about meyer in russia, into this endless engagement. the same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately you could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long ca operation before you know, in, in regard to so be union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last, it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about you brain winning. i think we all see that. it's a at x, that ukraine's expense just making sure rush of loses. and even then i still don't think that's even what's happening. but that's just again, this is the narrative we want you to be spreading. yeah, it, it's,

it's very interesting. there's they, they won't, they, they'll, they'll make this unfounded claim that russia as last, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true johnny. one of the things, it's always interesting that any and even kind of, you know, media that is sympathetic to a, uh, a realist interpretation. but they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say that by didn't ministration or other administrations have made any mistake. is it maybe the drives to expand nato? is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead, johnny as well. yes. those sides. uh, keep each other miscalculation has lots of miscalculate that i think they, they close their what would be over by now. i think that they homes that they send metrics and the rings around tia, as opposed to trying to make a deal. i also suspect of us uh, what about uh list if you like

a possible outcomes and the nature of bully back. can you grade in the amount of money when they send that? i think the lessons at noon, that's a possibility. so i think that's what i was able to now, but no to suspect that as well. and so i, me, well, i knew well about the situation right now. but as he said, miscalculations by the west of the north, they house the sanctions of triple the russian economy. that hasn't happens a sections of how to do it more than that. russia and in this an echo chamber which politicians civil society journalists living in the west. you can hardly think of abuse paper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. a blast of these things on shoot. i live in an echo chamber when they pull themselves into thinking you create really, really counseling. this was a service they found out the need. so there's nature weaponry some by sophisticated reformation, they've done like anything else. they reach the bottom line. so i think the west

has massively miscalculated multiple times in this war and as i say, as being north and west of medium, you know, it's, it's such a good point, johnny matthew. um are they we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an offer and you hear that all the time, you know and offer him from this year. but they, they never question. why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. and when you think that they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd,

which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, the complete returning of premier and everything else to take care of and rush, you're paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal then. and the international community is not supposed to are told, we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time, as we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd, rough as is completely is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards fall fall since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do nailed down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times likes to be present skis, white dream of the 198 late seventy's throughout the eighty's. that to,

that is not really there this time around, back in the eighty's the us was still relatively financially stable. whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're they're going forward in front of the idea is because they live with the illusions, you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that, you know, the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic, it's very hollow, but it's more or less big. and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. and so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all nobody in the west and power is willing to consider that ryan. i mean, i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or, or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people

. but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us government's been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly and in ukraine, but also with syria and then over overlapping that with the larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well, we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because they're being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with crimea by the way,

and they have said this publicly, yes, they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion of what the western media tries to sell to people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here. but you know, ryan brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don baths and never given any agency it whatsoever. it's really, it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break, johnny lee, i've got a lot of time and don't pass on and try me over the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people and don't bass and try me on a new one. to one of the boss of ukraine, and this is being census by the west, the media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit to so long as you can try me at once we bought it russia then you realize that, well, there is a peep, there is an opportunity of abuse here us. if you realized the facts, well, it is after to the plate and gives off the top cheese. that's why people try me or

people don't pass the use of incenses because it's by inconvenience having all these people, the ones we paused to rush out, and i thought was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay, the gentleman, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with

r t. the . the release of russian states never is as tight as i'm one of the most sense community invest in most all sense and up in the system must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will bend in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on trust routing and supports the r t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the date of service was for the question, did you say stephen twist,

which is the welcome that's across stock? were all things are considered on peter roosevelt to mind you were discussing ukraine? the okay, when it go back to johnny here in in moscow because i think what you were saying right before the break, this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bath in crimea, because you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in, it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it and they denigrated speak to that for our audience. johnny.

this is why i spend so much time in dry me with don't bass because the engines shouldn't match. uh, and if you listen to that opinions, a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that almost new western journalist goes the cry, me out on boss. why? because if they didn't go that they would have no choice, but to report that's actually what i think the poor thing. the majority once he bought a rush and it's just very convenient for me to get nbc just learned that recently the device i'm looking for that i did and he was put on a famous ingredient fitness. no, no on us for that. but most people use man. so what do you want to politically convenience, if people send these inconvenience that just ignore often often estimate it. so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people in the past and copying some of those you and kind of thought i'd say it's more of a mix. it's certainly more pretty creative and kind of have its own bath. it's still huge supports for the russians. so it's important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and asked me is this is the beginning of peace. when i,

when we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well, maybe crimea and maybe even don't want to join us. i think then you might see the car moving towards these producers is yeah, yeah it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me when we and we listen to people on the ground, you know, be before all of the started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine, it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime, which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a piece candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. and i, i've on my project and maybe i'm in the minority right now, but this was a bridge too far for this alliance, claiming itself and being defensive. i think we can see the end of nato as a result of this eventually matthew, as well. i think the,

the viability of the institution, which, which, i mean a lot of it largely lots of times all day so well over 30 years ago. i but it has come to it is taking a huge hit obviously. and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people on mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. you know, he is a jew, he's going to be an anti nazi candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh, and some form of a win win, a point of co existence with russia. and he spoke that we petered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet that he always was simply biting his time and, and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands. and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. um but, but i think overall you're right. the, the, i,

the very institution of nato was become the russ before world war 3. nobody even a need, a wants ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and, and it is with that losing it to an entire building to carry a coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato is so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine, why he doesn't inductive it. doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know, um we heard at the very beginning of the conflict in the secretary defense that this is about weakening russia. it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatry say about an a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take

a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, bite and in his joint press conference with the finish. president said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them into nato and tell boot and pulls out and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just give putting the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said, isn't that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep rush admired here, because i alternately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of y'all's of movement, what they really are the nazi, you know, not the elements and how this ties back to the c i a in operation aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's in the ukraine,

and then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy and nazi of them. and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now it's absolutely we're going to once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say, let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what they're doing, what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know john and john and so it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is it particularly the left the in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, the last point drive it is the more your grades and they just support you grade the morning, so you're going to be destroyed. i can do lessons to be quite happy with the child should have already taken as long as nature continues to point the crate and purchased the ticket with us or talk of us in terms of the not. so you do not see

elements the system testing document just before that was started by the guardian time magazine. yeah. advice isn't that some good work? and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was memory whole when it will start. and some of the ex johnny even went with, with allocation from the american congress. there was a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not get america american money, and that's been memory. hold still. okay. it's bought actually, if i go ahead, i did that on 2016 was when they originally said no. and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again in 2018, they added that they cannot order. they also have move and even indirectly. and now they currently are. so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was

seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was 2 months ago or so they new york times had this big expose a, about the nazi problem in ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further to go to finally our article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in, in ukraine. it's really needs to be internal as here. i mean they, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore, matthew and yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw that recently be a d l even came out saying that the, well, you know, the as a battalion. yeah. they're, they're bad. but now we support them in the as of movement, which is different. it's it's, it's mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so go, go to love,

how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no, it's, it's, they can avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works. and usually people see this when you're, when you're trying to like fudge a fudge of calculation when you're doing some math problem, a little a little error at the beginning. seems like something that you're losing by the person who keep north. if it isn't, builds up and builds up a few steps down your, you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve and they're there at that place and beyond that. and there's still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, they, they, i've said very often in this program, the more the wes tries to help ukraine, the smaller in smaller it gets okay. and if there's no honest interlocutor to speak to in the west, ukraine will get smaller. it's as simple as that. johnny. yeah, absolutely. needs to be an officer of someone i will say, potentially. good about lincoln's comment,

saying rush of is losing. ultimately. i mean it's, it's, it's, it's hard to do how, by god, that it could be creating count spencer's failings, a kind of strong place. but if need, so is the end to piece the goes jason's as russia gives me, those jasons will be giving up like least giving on the times you last year has taken. they're going to have to sell it as a big so you create is going to all of john johnny. i already have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already, i came up with this a few months ago. at least potent didn't make it to pair us. we won. that's how the salad. right. let me, let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan. a. hi. i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished. moment of bush just expert across the world, you know, it just so ridiculous how they can be honest with the population even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a wind, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know,

i really demonstrates how we can desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind, just to continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public and to be in there many. and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a glen greenwald, bank, and more than these kind of people are, they explain why empire is bad for the american people. but it's hard to get through that after what 70 years of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right before we go to uh, before we finish up, go ahead. yeah, i completely agree it's, it's, it's brainwashing ultimately and we see this with every, every narrative we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative,

with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it to more negative returns. they get gentlemen, that's all the time we have one thing, my guess in montreal, franklin and in moscow. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our t. so unix i'm and remember prospect rolls the the after the end of world war 2, the national liberation movement, a vietnam intensified dramatically. haven't driven away the japanese occupiers,

the v and the means patriots by no means wanted the return of the former french colonizers fraud. france did not want to lose the rich colony and decided to beat the opposition by board. in december 1946, a full scale war broke out. the v, i mean they 3 arctic organization led by how do you mean inflicted heavy losses on the french? the invaders were enraged. according to western historians, up to $250000.00 lives of peaceful feet and these were on their contents. the colonialist widely used the practice of mass rape of vietnamese women. as revenge on the gorilla. in 1947, the french destroyed the village of nights, rock murdering 170 women, and 157 children. however, terror did not help. in 1954, the vietnamese defeated the french army and the decisive battle of gen, being food. almost $12000.00 french soldiers and officers,

including the commander general dick had 3 and his command staff were captured. the configuration of a huge garrison had a demoralizing effect in europe. the french laughed vietnam, but they were replaced by even more violent and much stronger invaders. the american hard times were awaiting vietnam again the or

the the each other for a new one, you know, but eskimos, but do you mind? let me check somebody, check lucia, see send him under my eyes or just a sufficient platform for it. it shouldn't be for me any peddler from the remote thing while i mean he was seen, i mean, he says it will come so on by the most acute one phase. and what else do you notice what then to keep the skin left left from on that lovely key to set it before you let me show everybody

the cause. avoid a mistake. dental to share because i've already, if you need a lot of shit low, but i want you to do policy and follow police have to look really nice. i did was i asked one can easy. the last, i know that you might not the import us on. you might need to allow for those that to the features that i sent you over the life of the homeowner may offer us down for you, but it all the restaurant. but again, is vinnie sheets. i have confirmed enough for us to pull up, but just want to remind you that follow up to the shifts. yes, that will give it to him monday don't. so i was, you know, mid thank you m lillia and we will, we will get on to, to ship the select today and push it, pull up on the