the question, did you say stephen twisted? the the hello and welcome to cross off were all things are considered. i am peter lavelle the by the administration in nature. world are fascinating with soft power and rhetorical ships. remember, ukraine will win and ukraine is winning. now we hear russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality. the

cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, matthew and rent in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian. he is found to an editor of the last american vagabond and host of the daily wrap up. and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv corresponded alright job in cross truck roles and effects. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate matthew, let me go to you 1st. so me, one of the things i find really fascinating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we wouldn't where you currently ukraine will weigh. a new crane is winning. we now, we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by implication, does that mean ukraine has one, save the business that's hold a discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense, and it's not naming a lot of fraction,

matthew and monterey. are your thoughts? are to be very short, the next that is what it is in imply, implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic trick of soft the street and, and the idea would be that if, if a that's be, if there's indication here, there must be a positive here which is what they wish to can be a sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past. but i think that it's wearing off a very, very deeply right now is there's a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population in which, which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year, really, since the 1st days of the military intervention began. and, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations of europe and including the united states as well. a destruction of ability to basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse

and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same plate as they used to be there. you know, ryan is very interesting. last week, robert f kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show, and of course hannity going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was remarkable. you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with when met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, and i whole heartedly agree. and i think what's interesting, the, the, what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now is bleach. just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they're constantly pushing the narrative,

they want their audiences to believe. and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories . well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think. and the truth is, as you're seeing. and that example is, you know, that they are asking these questions and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on, on myself, included that what's going on. and ukraine is predominantly about meyer in russia, into this endless engagement. the same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately you could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long c operation before, you know, been in regard to so be union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last, it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about your brain winning, and i think we all see that it's a at x, that ukraine's expense just making sure rush of loses. and even then i still don't

think that's even what's happening. but that's just, again, this is the narrative we want you to be spreading. yeah, and it's, it's very interesting. there's, they, they won't make notes that will make this unfounded claim that russia as last, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true johnny. one of the things, it's always interesting any and even kind of, you know, media that is sympathetic to a, a realist interpretation. but they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say the bye. didn't ministration or other administrations have made any mistake? is it maybe the drive to expand nato is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead, johnny, as well. yes. those sides, uh, keep, each other miscalculation has lost them, is calculated. i think they, they close there will it be over by now. i think that they homes that they send the

chips and the grades around kia as opposed to trying to make a deal. i also suspect a rush. i would have had a list if you like, the possible outcomes and dates are fully back in the grade in the amount of money weapons they send the i think the lessons at noon. that's a possibility service. i think that's what i was able to now, but no to suspect it as well. and so i, me, well, i knew well about the situation right now. but as he said, miscalculations by the west of the north, they house the sanctions of triple the russian economy. that hasn't happens, the sections of mind you're more than they've had russia. and in the echo chamber, which politicians civil society john was living in the west. you can have to pick up a newspaper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. how frustrated last of these things on shoot, i live in an echo chamber and they pulled themselves into thinking you create really, really counseling. this was as soon as they found out the need,

so there's nature weaponry some by sophisticated reformation, they've done like anything else. they reach the bottom line. so i think the west has massive b miscalculated multiple times in this war. and as i say, as being ignored by the west and media, you know, it's, it's such a good point, johnny matthew. um are they, we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an off ramp. you hear that all the time, you know and offer him from this year. but they, they never question. why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. and when you think that

they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and everything else to take care of and rush of paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal then. and the international community is not supposed to are told, we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time, as we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd, rough as is completely is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards fall fall since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do knelt down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times like,

is it being emergencies? what dream of the 198 late seventy's throughout the 80s that to that is not really there this time around. back in the eighty's the us was still relatively financially stable. whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're, they're going forward in front of the united states because they live with delusions, you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that, you know, the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic, it's very hollow, but it's more or less big and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. and so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all nobody in the west and power is willing to consider that ryan. i mean,

i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or, or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people . but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us. government has been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly in, in ukraine, but also with syria and then over the overlapping that with the larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well, we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have voted internationally observed legally to be

a part of this country because they're being ethnically cleansed, will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with crimea by the way, and they have said this publicly what they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion about the western media. try to sell the people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here, but you know, ryan brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don batson, never given any agency it whatsoever. it's really, it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break, johnny. yeah, a lot of time and don't last on time in the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people in don't bass and try me on a new one to one of the boss of ukraine. and this is being census by the west, the media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit to so long as you can try me at once, be monitored russia, then you realize that, well, there is a people there's an opportunity visa if you realized on the box. well,

it is optical that you created gives autopsies, that's why people try me or people don't pass the use of incentives because it's by inconvenience having all these people do want to be part of russia. and i thought it was realized that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay, the gentleman, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with r t. the, the that plans are so important, that's what i'm says is i'm talking about 210. 0 wow. no, i'm not in the shop. i'm not fixing that amount of money. was avoid the mistake dental to share because i've already, if you need another, she had no,

but i wanted to do policy and political nissan to look really i did was i ask whom one can easy the lesser and those are the e. might know the import us when you might need to allow for those that. do you disagree with me? i sent you over the on may off for us the on the would you put it on the restaurant, but again, they should be new sheets. i have completed offers cool lot, but just showing do you mind giving me the number that you know, the number one, let me know you got the like motor and ask you some history on for me to also define my points back on my list. i pretty sort of despair. i make all that i have to get in and work on watch it when i'm done, i mean a lot better and i figured they've done with being picked up to i've been in the past on the phone like total shit. so you have to renew the money, don't songs,

you know. net. thank you. m, let me in 0. you will get onto to ship the select samples you pull up on the the known in vietnam as the american war, the vietnam war lost its almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. not any time now, and then you don't see it now. wow. it's all on empty hundreds

of thousands of american troops who was sent to the country to back the south vietnamese on me. i got to develop that, not much. american soldiers limited resistors, most of the slaves, the down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals. and even lee by all right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did and on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yeah, yeah. yeah. that's, that's a ways too late. but you have the

welcome ex. across stock. were all things are considered on peter roosevelt to remind you we're discussing ukraine or the okay when it go back to johnny here in, in moscow because it's saying what you were saying right before the break, this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bass in crimea, because, you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in, it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it and they denigrated speak to that for our audience. johnny a, this is why i spend so much time in dry me with don't boss because the indians shouldn't match. uh, and if you listen to the is a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that almost new western journalists go to cry me out on boss. why? because if they didn't go that they would have no choice, but to report the doctor what i've been reporting,

the vast majority once he bought a rush and it's just very convenient for me to get nbc jo swimming uh, recently the photos that i did and he was put on a pharmacy premium fitness. no, no on us for that, but most people use man. so what do you want to politically convenience, if people so these are inconvenienced then that just ignore often often estimate it . so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people in the past and copying some of those your costs on. i'd say it's more mixed. it's certainly more pretty creative in crime, in a dumbass. it's still huge supports for the russians that so it's important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and asked me if this is the beginning of peace. when we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well maybe try me and maybe even don't want to join motion, i think then you might see uh the car moving towards these producer issues. yeah. yeah it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me when we, um, if we listen to people on the ground, you know,

be before all of this started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine . it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of the people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know, that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime. which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a peace candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. and i, i've a my predict, maybe i'm in the minority right now, but this was a bridge too. far for this alliance, claiming itself and being defensive, i think we could see the end of nato as a result of this. eventually matthew, as well, i think the, the viability of the institution, which, which, i mean a lot of it largely lots and size all day so well over 30 years ago. i have but it has come to it is taking a huge hit obviously and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people on mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. you know, he is a jew,

he's going to be an anti nazi candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh, and some form of a win win, a point of co existence with russia. and he spoke that we petered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet that he always was simply biting his time and, and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands. and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. um but, but i think overall you're right. the, the, i, the very institution of nato was become the russ before world war 3. nobody even a need, a wants ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and uh, and it is with that losing its an entire build of the carrier coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato is so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine walk,

it doesn't, it inducted it doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know, we heard at the very beginning of the conflict, then you'd be secretary defense. so this is about weakening russia. it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatry say about an a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, biden, in his joint press conference with the finish. president said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them in tomato until boot and pulls out. and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just give,

put in the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said, isn't that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep rush admired here, because i ultimately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of the also have moved into what they really are the nazi you neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i gave you an operation, aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's into ukraine and then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy. and nazi is i'm and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the neo conversation was a conspiracy theory,

and now it's absolutely we're going to, once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say, let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what they're doing, what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know, john johnny is, it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is it particularly the left in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, the environment is demoya, cranes initially supports you great in the morning. so what you're going to be destroyed, i can do lessons to be quite happy with the time should have already taken as long as nature continues to point the crate and purchased the ticket with us or talk to us in terms of the not. so you do not see elements, the system testing documentation before that was started by the guardian time magazine. yeah. advice isn't that some good work? and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was memory whole when it will start and some of the not to johnny, even with, with, with allocation from the american congress. there was

a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not get america. american money, and that's been memory. hold still. okay. it's bought actually, if i go ahead, i can add to that on 2016 was when they originally said no. and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again in 2018, they added that they cannot order. they also have move and even indirectly. and now they currently are. so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so they new york times had this big expose a about the nazi problem in ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know,

just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further single depend on the, all right, article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in, in ukraine. it's really needs to be internal as here. i mean they, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore matthew. so yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw that recently b a d l even came out saying that, uh, well, you know, the as a battalion. yeah. they're, they're bad, but now we support them in the as of movement, which is different. it's, it's a mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so go, go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no, it's, it's, they can avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works. and if people see this, when you're, when you're trying to like fudge a fudge of calculation, when you're doing some math problem, a little, a little error at the beginning,

seems like something that you're losing by the person who keep north isn't builds up and builds up a few steps down your, you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve and they're there at that place and beyond that. and they're still trying to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, they, they, i've said very often in this program, the more the wes tries to help you crane the smaller in smaller it gets okay. and if there is no honest interlocutor to speak to and the west, ukraine will get smaller. it's as simple as that, johnny. yeah, absolutely. um. and that needs to be an officer of somebody, i will say, potentially a good about lincoln's comment saying russia is losing ultimately, i mean it's, it's, it's, it's hard to do. how do i get out of it? could you create an account, spencer's failings, a kind of stronger place, but it's nice. so is the ends of peace negotiations as well goes. jason's will be giving up like least giving on the talk to you last year has taken. they're going to have to sell it as of extra you create is going to all of john johnny. i already

have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already, i came up with this a few months ago. at least potent didn't make it to paris. we won. that's how the salad. right. let me just right. let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan. a. hi. i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished. moment of bush just expert across the world. you know, it's just so ridiculous how they can't be honest with the population even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a win, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know, i really demonstrates how we can desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american

people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind, just to continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public enemy, and there are many, uh, and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a, glenn greenwald. they can, more than these kind of people. are they explain why empire is bad for the american people, but it's hard to get through that after what? 70 years of, of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right before we go to uh, before we finish up, go ahead. yeah, i completely agree. it's, it's, it's brainwashing ultimately, and we see this with every, every narrative we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative, with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it to more negative return. so they get gentlemen, that's all the time we have one to take my guess in montreal, franklin and in moscow. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us

here in our t. so unix time and remember prospect rolls. the the question, i mean you clear about love seeing those words isn't look, i do live most schools do. if you look on the initial do, while of course, significant dealer post on zillow, while it be almost getting used to put value, what do we do origin by the office, the was done, the newest frame on

the buildings systems to build a new do what i see these the buses, the little gear limitation says this tutorial on both of the european nations ultimately experienced that transformation with the exception that is, was kind of defeats as by the hard realities, right? or at least confronted with them in the, in a very significant way. spend, you know, the space up more or less, the more or less the only exception to the general tendency. that of course, has to deal with the fact that the jet radical situation of the other states is one of the things that of an iowa that is the size of the columns. and then the the,

the other piece that there was any military intervention against new jail would be tantamount to a declaration of war against working a fast to an miley for kennesaw. so when ma, the warrant against any interference in the share, as the one threatens, that it could authorize the use of force as civilian casualties, mounts and mid ukrainian showing the country is increasingly seen as a testing ground for western weapons. donald trump is indicted on for federal charges including conspiracy, but dismisses them as a smear attempts to distract the public from afresh scandal surrounding the bite and family. the.