windows and sell out after her during escape, the victim flooded in search of her sister. the only person who had reported her going missing 14 years ago. now, the head of russia's investigative committee has ordered a probe into the missing persons case that was left unanswered for nearly a decade and a half per accused. kidnapper flooding or just skita, has been arrested until the beginning of his trial at the end of september. that's are up for now, but coming up despite the wes narrative manipulations on the ukraine conflict, reality does not change the discussion next on cross ok. thanks for joining. don't go far the

hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the by the administration in nature world are fascinated with soft power and rhetorical ships. remember, ukraine will win and ukraine is winning. now we hear russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality. the cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, matthew rent in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian, he is founder and editor of the last american vagabond. and host of the daily wrap up. and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv correspondence. alright, job in cross lock, rolls and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, matthew, let me go to you 1st. i mean, one of the things i find really fast estimating about this completely unnecessary

war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we, when we are you currently, ukraine will weigh a new crane is winning. well, now we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by implication, does that mean ukraine has one, save the business? this hold discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense, and it's not naming a lot of fraction, matthew, and non true, your thoughts to be very short. so that is what it is in imply, implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic a trick of soft the street and, and the idea would be that if, if a, that's be, if there is indignation here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to convey a sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past, but i think that it's wearing off very, very deeply right now is there is a, a certain fatigue amongst the western population in which, which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just

about to lose for, well, well, over a year, really, since the 1st days of the military intervention began. and, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations. of europe and including the united states as well, a destruction of ability, basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same plate as they used to be there. you know, ryan, um it was very interesting. last week, robert f kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show, and of course hannity going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was

remarkable. you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, i whole heartedly agree. and i think what's interesting, the, the, what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now is, but just from my perspective, as far as i can tell where they are constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories . well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think. and the truth is, as you're seeing in that example, is you know, that they are asking these questions. and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on, on myself, included that what's going on. and ukraine is predominately about meyer in russia into this endless engagement. the same conversation that was had about afghanistan

with the, with the move to dean and, and ultimately could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long see operation before you know, been in regard to so be union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has no last, it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about you brain winning, and i think we all see that it's a at x at ukraine's expense. just making sure rush of loses and even then i still don't think that's even what's happening. but that's just again, this is the narrative. we want you to be spreading. yeah. and it's, it's very interesting. there's, they, they won't let me know if that will make this unfounded claim that russia has lost, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true. johnny . one of the things, it's always interesting any and even kind of, you know, media that is sympathetic to a, a realist interpretation. but they always talk about mis rushes, miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say defined administration or other administrations have made any mistake. is it maybe the

drive to expand nato is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead. johnny as well. yes. the sides uh, keep each other miscalculation has lots of miscalculate that i think they, they close their what would be over by now. i think that they homes that they send metrics and the grading surround tia as opposed to going to make a deal. but i also suspect of us uh, what about uh list, if you like the possible outcomes and the dates are fully back in the grade and the amount of money when they send that i think the lessons are noon. that's a possibility service. i think that's what i was able to now, but i know to suspect that as well, but i'm sorry i may. well, i may well across the situation right now, but as the se miscalculations by the west of the north, they host the sanctions of triple the russian economy. that hasn't happens a sections of how to do it more than they're not russia. and in this echo chamber,

which politicians civil society journalists live in the west, you can hardly pick up a newspaper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. how frustrated blast, uh these things on shoot. i live in an echo chamber and they call themselves into thinking you create really, really counseling this was. but since they found out the need, so is nice or weaponry. some very sophisticated reformation, they've done like anything else. they reach the device from the bottom line. so i think the west has massive payments, calculates it multiple times in this war, and as i say, it's being ignored by the western media. you know, it's, it's such a good point, johnny matthew. um are they we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an off ramp. you hear that all the time, you know and offer him from this year. but they, they never question. why would, why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah,

it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating it itself. and when you think that they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and everything else to, to key of and rush of paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal. then the, then the international community is not supposed to are told, we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time, as we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd, rough as is completely,

is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards fall fall since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do knelt down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times likes to be present skis, wet dream, of the 198 late seventy's throughout the 80s. that to, that is not really there this time around, back in the eighty's the us was still relatively financially stable. whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're, they're going forward in front of the united states because they live with delusions, you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that, you know, the, the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic,

it's very hollow, but it's more or less big. and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that. and so moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it, the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all nobody in the west in power is willing to consider that ryan. i mean, i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people. but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us. government has been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly in, in ukraine, but also with syria and then over the overlapping that with the larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well,

we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because they're being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with crimea by the way, and they have said this publicly what they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion about the western media. try to sell the people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here, but you know, brian brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don batson, never given any agency it whatsoever. it's really, it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break, johnny lee i think

a lot of time and don't last long time in the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people in don't bass and try me on a new 1. 1 of the boss of ukraine, and this is being census by the west, the media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit to so long and didn't try to be once we bought of russia, then you realize that, well, there is a peep, there is an opportunity to vcr, if you realized that, that well, it is optical that you create and gives off the top chaise. that's why people try me. are people talking about the use of incenses? because it's by inconvenience, having all these people do want to be part of russia, and i thought it was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay, when gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with r t the the

that the says is that how much is panel? well, no longer live the so i'm not fixing that amount of money. was avoid the mistake dental to share because i've already view need another shad low but i wanted to do policy and follow crumbs on to look really i did was i ask whom i can easily do that sir. no that you might know the import us when you might need to allow for us to have to vicki disability. i just need to work it out for the morning. may offer us the on the would you put it on the restroom? back on fish vinnie sheets i have confirmed it offers cool lot, but just showing do you mind giving me the number that you know, hold on, let me know you got the like motor and ask you some history on for me to also define my force

back on my list, i sort of despair. i make all that i have to get in and won't come up between i'm but i'm in the library and i figured they've done with b print up to i've been with us on the phone. what do those shifts? yes, that when you the money don't songs, you know, mid thank you. family and 0. you will get onto to ship us. like i said, i am pacific left on the the

known in vietnam as the american war, the vietnam war lost its almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. nor does he have written down that you don't see it. now. what is all i'm empty? hundreds of thousands of american troops was sent to the country to back the south vietnamese on me. i thought about that not, but the american soldiers murdered resistors. most of us like the down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals and lee lead up day bye. all right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did and on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yeah, yeah,

yeah. that's, that's a ways to but yeah, the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered non peter in the bill to remind you we're discussing ukraine of the okay. when it go back to johnny here in in moscow because it's saying what you were saying right before the break, this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bass in crimea, because, you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in, it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it. then they denigrated speak to that for our audience, johnny. a. this is why i spend so much time in dry me with the boss because the

indians should not side if you listen to the is a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that almost new western journalists goes the cry me out on boss. why? because if they didn't go that they would have no choice. but to report what i've been reporting the majority once he bought a rush and it's just very convenient for me to get nbc just when i recently did buy some of it for the items and he was put on a famous ingredient fitness. no, no on us for that, but most people use math. so what do you want to politically convenience, if people send these inconvenienced, i'm not just ignoring often austin's a smith. so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people who don't pass and copying some of those your costs on. i'd say it's more of a mix. the certainly more pretty creative and kind of in a dumbass still huge support school for the russian stuff. so it's important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and asked me if this is the

beginning of peace. when we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well, they didn't crime us, maybe a given don't want to join motion, i think then you might see uh the quote on moving towards the district associations . yeah. yeah it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me when we and we listen to people on the ground going to be before all of this started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine. it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know, that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime. which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a piece candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much so that it can chew on. and i, i've a my predictor, maybe i'm in the minority right now, but this was a bridge too. far for this alliance, claiming itself that being defense, and i think we could see the end of nato as a result of this. eventually matthew, as well, i think the viability of the institution, which when i mean

a lot of it is largely lots of ties all day so well over 30 years ago. i have but it has come to it is taken a huge hit obviously. and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people all mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. you know, he is a jew, he's going to be an anti nancy candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh, and with some form of a win win, a point of co existence with russia. and he spoke that we catered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet, but he always was simply biding his time and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. um, but i think overall you're right, the, the,

i, the very institution of nato has become the rest before world war 3. nobody even a needle once ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and uh, and it is with that losing its an entire building to carry a coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato was so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine, well, he doesn't induct it it doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know what we heard at the very beginning of the conflict that you'd be secretary defense. so this is about weakening russia. it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatrist say about a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is,

but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, bite and in his joint press conference with the finish. president said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them into nato and till boot and pulls out. and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just give putting the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said is that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep brushing mired here because i alternately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of the also have moved into what they really are the nazi you neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i gave you an operation, aerodynamic or project aerodynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's into ukraine and

then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy and nazi of them. and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now it's absolutely we're going to once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say, let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what, what they're doing, what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know, johnny johnny is, it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is it particularly the left in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, the environment is demoya things and they can support you great in the morning, so you're going to be destroyed. i can do lessons to be quite happy with the child should have already taken as long as nature continues to point the crate and purchased the ticket with this or talk of,

of us in terms of the not. so you do not see elements the system testing documentary is the stop by the guardian time magazine. yeah. advice isn't that some good work? and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was never a whole when it will start of something that i don't even know how to fix johnny. they even went with, with allocation from the american congress. there was a provision that in the, these nazi factions and brigade should not in america american money, and that's been memory. hold still. okay. it's bought actually before go ahead. i did that on 2016 was when they originally said no. and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again in 2018, they added that they cannot order. they also have moved and even indirectly. and now they currently are. so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it's, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was

seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so are they new york times had this big expose a about the nazi problem and ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further single time we are in the article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in, in ukraine. it's really needs to be internal as here. i mean they, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore. matthew. yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw the recently b a d l even came out saying that the, well, you know, the as of vitale and yeah, they're, they're bad. but now we support them. that the as of movement, which is different. it's, it's a mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so go,

go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no it's, it's, they can avoid their own, their own absurdities in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works. and if people see this, when you're, when you're trying to like fighting some math problem, a little a little error at the beginning, seems like something. is there a reason why the person who keep north is it just builds up and builds up a few steps down your you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve and they're there at that place and beyond that. and there's still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, the, the, i've said very often in this program, the more the west tries to help you crane the smaller in smaller, it gets okay. and if there is no honest interlocutor to speak to in the west, ukraine will get smaller. it's as simple as that, johnny. yeah, absolutely. um. and that needs to be an offer on somewhere. i would say, potentially a good about lincoln's comment saying rosseters losing. ultimately, i mean it's, it's, it's, it's go hard to how the could you create an account,

spencer's failings, a catastrophic place. but if nato is the end to peace negotiations, as russia goes, jason's will be giving up like least giving all the time she lost her has taken. they're going to have to sell it as of extra you create is going to all of john johnny. i already have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already i came up with this a few months ago. it least potent didn't make it to pair us. we won. that's how the salad. right. let me get right. let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan, a hi, i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished moment of bush just ex, 3 across the world. you know, it just so ridiculous how they can't be honest with the population, even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a win, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know, i really demonstrates how we can desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault,

the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind, just to continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public enemy, and there are many, uh, and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a glen greenwald, bank, and more than these kind of people are they explain why empire is bad for the american people, but it's hard to get through that after what, 70 years of, of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right. before we go to uh, before we finish up, go ahead. yeah, i completely agree. it's, it's, it's brainwashing ultimately and we see this with every, every narrative. we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this, and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative,

with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it to more negative return, so they get gentlemen, that's all the time we have one to take my guess in montreal, franklin and in moscow. and of course i want to thank our be worth for watching us here in our t. so unix time and remember prospect rolls the, you know, probably maybe some, some of the week monday or is cisco web shows or some are used to work with me. right. and i

have the email as well. since i put the general, put some of the things up, the tools and notes and that leaves the windows of both employees if you need. because usually the media is they'll give us why. why would you get to see it but not least screen that that was the,

the, the, to the transitional governments of working at fast. so then molly, one that any military intervention against media would be tantamount to a declaration of war against 14 and fast. when molly mccain about so as molly born against any, it's a fair ring to meet you after you went to a residence that a could authorize the case, a full civilian casualties mounts and made me crazy of selling the country is increasingly seen. i think testing ground to the us, donald trump is invited on for federal charges including conspiracy. but he dismissed as the nearest steps to distract the public attention from the scandal within finding the.