for the bite in administration was working hard to achieve any kind of agreement, the development that is, that are really, that will be and normalization process. they will surprise with the, with the how to get going through the, the little bit. so the nations with 0 and then it was like kind of a shocking is what i am at. so this is what they and i did this, that is, but i don't with the current situation in the war and the conflict in between brush and you could and now they are trying to find balance and but a light that we have been seeing that the and so there it'd be, and they, they refused even us for the shuttle when they wanted them to increase the order of duction and not enough to make them a good prices for the united states. they refused the entities that they know that. so there be a good be negative disposition on, so we brush up. so this these beloved says in the area, i think it's fair to be good, not good. so the other thing,

the point in the other way in order to get into this, so it is again the but the so the idea, she just out of place, sorry to interrupt. but just at the point that china recently helped media thought deal between the run and so do you really you were speaking about perhaps perhaps making the point that, that the us feels as if there have to play at catch shop. a king may occur in the region, not putting more pressure on the by the team. this is visited the united states today. they would, they got to be another uh fi, then the well, and this seems to that this pulled back up it from on the be the be able to tell you that and the sure, and this is also the, so there would be a bundle on that seems that the crown the brand, so then once i assume that he follows the us ponies the as maybe initially so data bill to do or use to do so this is this data being the by then that's an expression

of that's why they want maybe to at the strange and that relation by l funding. so that'd be a what they are demanding. get. let me go to the new, clear of them. and also the condition that says the stand in the end, because i only can click but the blue blue here will be wouldn't be between is what i am and the united states. and the, i think of the government this, the, gotta manually the govern government, the government and we'll just begin it. so it is in system that conditions very interesting and date. thank you very much for coming in the program on sharing at that with us published ending on the list. and it's really a 1st lie from ramallah today, cal 2 and a part of good team. many sites you're good. now are to use the bates um, discussion show cross talk is front and center. next. catch peter. and guess ahead in moments and i'm here again of the top. they close

the to take a fresh look around as a life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real live indians. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusions, going underground? can the

the hello and welcome to cross off were all things are considered. i am peter lavelle the by the administration in nature. world are fascinated with soft power and rhetorical ships. remember, ukraine will win and ukraine is winning. now, here russia is losing, and even russia has lost narrative manipulations do not change hard reality. the cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, matthew rent in montreal. he is a senior fellow at the american university in moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and franklin. we have ryan christian, he is found an editor of the last american vagabond and host of the daily wrap up and here in moscow we crossed to johnny miller. he is a press tv correspondent,

right job in cross truck roles and effects. that means he can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate matthew, let me go to you 1st. i mean, one of the things i find really fascinating about this completely unnecessary war is how the west has tried to sell it to the world and to its own people. and you know, we, when we're you currently ukraine will weigh new, crane is winning. we now, we don't hear this anymore. we, we hear russia is lost, but by importation, does that mean ukraine has one, save the business that's hold a discursive, manipulation doesn't make any sense, and it's not naming a lot of fraction, matthew, and not true. your thoughts to be very short next, that is what it is in imply, implying absolutely using a very, you know, basic a trick of soft the street and, and the idea would be that if, if a that's be, if there's indignation here, there must be a positive here, which is what they wish to convey sort of a magic spell of which is something which has worked in the past. but i think that it's wearing off very, very deeply right now is there's a,

a certain fatigue amongst the western population which has been said the same line that russia is just about to lose rough is just about to lose for, well, well, over a year really since the 1st days of the military intervention began. and uh, and i think what we see is, is a complete failure and of govern ability amongst nations of europe and including the united states as well. a destruction of ability to basic ability in the 1st world, countries to supply energy, reliable food, or even simply convinced the population that their economy is not about to collapse and sitting on the precipice. all of all of these things are very, very difficult to uphold. so i think that people are not really buying the same plate as they used to be there. you know, ryan. um it was very interesting. last week. um robert f. kennedy junior was on the sean hannity show, and of course had any going through his usual bumper stickers about non neil con nonsense and in. kennedy pushed back and gave a reasonably not perfect but

a reasonably good historical context to it. and the crowd cheered. it was remarkable, you know, hannity's own fans, groupies were disagreeing with him in real time. that gets to the point with met with matthew was saying is that people are not buying it. it's a, it's a, a bill of goods that is not being accepted. ryan, and i wholeheartedly agree, and i think what's interesting the, the, what you're highlighting there and this is anywhere you look in the corporate media right now, is this just from my perspective? as far as i can tell where they are constantly pushing the narrative, they want their audiences to believe. and you see this in, in, you know, discussions where they're saying my audience doesn't believe in conspiracy theories . well, you know, they're basically telling them how to think, and the truth is, as you're seeing in that example, is you know that they are asking these questions and if they're there, so the narrative is slipping through their fingers in regard to the original question. i think it kind of cuts to the quick of the real point here is that this was, at least as, as, as a lot of people be on myself. included that what's going on. and ukraine is

predominantly about meyer in russia, into this endless engagement, the same conversation that was had about afghanistan with the, with the moods of dean and, and ultimately, you could argue to some degree that was effective. and that might be why it's being applied today. you know, we can go back a long way and see this has been a long ca operation before you know, in, in regard to sylvia union and now with russia. but i think what this is ultimately about in your point about saying russia has now lost. it's really kind of highlighting the real point here. it's not about you brain winning, and i think we all see that it's a at x, that ukraine's expense just making sure rush of loses. and even then i still don't think that's even what's happening. but that's just, again, this is the narrative we want you to be spreading. yeah, and it's, it's very interesting. there's, they, they won't let me know. so that will make this unfounded claim that russia has lost, but they never will say that ukraine is one because it's probably not true johnny. one of the things it's always interesting and any, and even kind of you know, media that is sympathetic to a, uh, a realist interpretation. and they always talk about mis rushes,

miscalculations and mistakes and all that. but they'll never say defined administration or other administrations of a made any mistake. is it maybe the drives to expand nato is somehow a given a and it's a good given in their mind, but they never question their motives and they never question their actions. go ahead, johnny as well. yes. the sides. uh, keep each other miscalculation has lots of miscalculate that i think they, they close their what would be over by now? i think that they how did they send that sheets and the rings around? yeah. as opposed to going to make a deal. i also suspect a rush. i would have had a list if you like, a possible outcomes and they to fully back can you grade in the amount of money weapons they send that? i think the lessons are noon. that's a possibility service. i think that's what i was able to now, but no to suspect as well, but i'm sorry i may. well, i may well across the situation right now. but as you say, the miscalculations by the west of the north. they house the sanctions of triple

the russian economy. that hasn't happens a sections of how you're more than they're not russia. and in this echo chamber, which politicians civil society journalists living in the west, you can hardly think of abuse paper in the last year without reading about how bad the russian army is. how frustrated blast, uh these things on shoot. i live in an echo chamber when they call themselves into thinking you create really, really counseling. this was a service they found out the need. so is nature weaponry some by sophisticated reformation, they've done like anything else. they reach the russian bottom line. so i think the west has massively miscalculated multiple times in this war, and as i say, as being ignored by the western media, you know, it's, it's such a good point, johnny matthew. um are they we always hear about, you know, getting, providing the russians an off ramp. you hear that all the time. you know, i'm offering them from this here. but they, they never question. why would,

why would brush or even negotiate with these people that lied to them for years and years of the minutes go process is a perfect example. all the major players that were involved, the admitted, yeah, it was a scam my word, but that's what they said it was a scam. so what's the off ramp here of negotiations? you know, and the saudis are in on it, you know, and then the chinese are and it, but there's no reason for rushing negotiate with any of these people, particularly since it's not losing matthew. yeah, it's a strange little bit of um, it's a self delusion which just keeps on repeating itself. and when you think that they can't get more crazy, they go and repeat something absurd, which has been proven to be wrong. so many times. i mean, it seems as though, unless you have a full extraction of all russian forces, a complete returning of premier and everything else to a, to key of and rush of paying reparations and putting, putting up for work frames a at, at some tribunal then. and the international community is not supposed to are told, we're not supposed to be happy with any, any other outcome. but at the same time,

as we'd say that we're like, well, let's give russia somebody's skipper. it's absurd, rough as is completely is completely dominant. i believe in this, in this current scenario, our ukraine is as become more than a failed state. and i think it's really just the question now at this point of seeing where, where the cards for fall, since the whole financial system again, is creating a bit of a timeline of, of how long we have to really play this game. since once the banks do knelt down the ability to carry out the type of prolonged war that was possible in times like, is it being a brzezinski is wet dream of the 198 late seventy's throughout the 80s. that to, that is not really there this time around, back in the eighty's the us was still relatively financially stable. whereas now it's a giant bottle debt reading basket case, which is teetering on the edge, which is again, creating a timeline that we've never seen before. so with that, i don't really know exactly how, how they're, they're going forward in front of the idea is because i live with the illusions,

you know, you know, right, it's, it's very interesting here is that, you know, the, the narrative from the west it's, it's very more realistic, it's very hollow, but it's more or less big. and it's very difficult to have a constructive conversation with some of that as a moralizing about everything and hypocritical on top of it. the russians are interested in security. it's always been that that's from the very, very beginning to the moment we're speaking right now. security for all nobody in the west in power is willing to consider that ryan. i mean, i tend to try to avoid acting like i know what any government or, or person in the authority or power thinks or wants or believes or even the people . but i would argue that based on what we can see taking place, it's very clear that there's been repeated red lines crossed at the us. government has been actively trying to make this happen. that russia, even even overlapping it with syria, has continually shown itself to show that you were to demonstrate restraint to not take the bait. i mean, we can see this happening repeatedly and in ukraine,

but also with syria and then over overlapping that with a larger point about not allowing this to end. it's the same thing with syria. well, we're not going to allow this country to return to normal rock, allow the people to end their suffering until we remove a sod. so it shows that the real point with all of these has nothing to do with fighting for the, for any people fighting with anything other than their agenda and their control over the area. and to act like putting should just pull back and just give up. will ultimately what that means is that the people in don bass who have boded internationally observed legally to be a part of this country because they're being ethnically, cleanse will then be left to the actions of these people who have been murdering them wholesale. same thing with cry, me a by the way, and they have said this publicly what they want to do to the people. so it's really hard not to see the reality. and that speaks to the big illusion about the western media. try to sell the people that don't want to do this kind of research is johnny, we have one minute before we go to the break here, but you know, ryan brings up a really good point. these people in crime in the don batson, never given any agency. it's whatsoever. it's really,

it's really quite pathetic when, particularly when the west is talking about a rules based order. go ahead before we go to the break. john lee, i think a lot of time and don't last time try me over the last year or so. and i can speak to the vast majority of people in don't bass and try me on a new one to one of the boss of ukraine. and this is being census by the west of media because when they realized that the vast majority of human don't boss have been boned by credit to so long as you can try me at once we bought it russia, then you realize that, well, there is a piece there is an opportunity vcr, if you realized that box, well, it is ethical that you create and gives up top cheese. that's why people try me. are people talking about the use of incentives? because it's by inconvenience, having all these people, the ones we bought, the russia, and i thought it was the realize that a piece negotiation would be far more likely. okay, when gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with r t the

the, [000:00:00;00] the, the welcome ex, across stock. were all things are considered on peter roosevelt to remind you were discussing ukraine,

the okay, when to go back to johnny here in in moscow because it's saying what you were saying right before the break, this soul jermaine and with western audiences need to understand the speak to the issue of self determination, particularly in the don bass in crimea, because, you know, the, the west will always push self determination when it's in, it's geo political interest. but if it's not, they ignore it. then they denigrated speak to that for our audience. johnny. well, this is why i spend so much time in dry me with the boss because the indians shouldn't match. uh, and if you listen to the end, a piece of solution is, is possible. it's interesting that almost new western german, this goes to try me out on boss why, because if they didn't go that they would have no choice, but to report back to what i've been reporting the majority once he bought a rush,

i suspect convenience. i think it nbc just went out recently the photos that i did and he was put on a famous ingredient. this no, no on us for that. but most people use math. so what do you, what a politically, convenience it people, so these inconvenienced them not just ignore often often smith. so it's a very important point you make, but i think it's important to listen to people in the past and copying some of those your costs on. i'd say it's more mixed, it's certainly more pretty creative and kind of in a dumbass, still huge support school for the russians that so it's important we listen to the people on both sides of this conflict and that stuff. i mean is this is the beginning of peace when when we see saucers, reports in the west, the media saying, well maybe try me and maybe even don't want to join motion. i think then you might see the car moving towards the district with jason's. yeah, yeah. it's, it's really interesting, matthew, me when we and we listen to people on the ground going to be before all of the

started in 2014 public opinion poll after another in ukraine. it was, it was less way less than 50 percent around, maybe 25 percent of people that were interested in nato. and, and now we're told you know that that is the prime director above others, zalinski regime, which of course, when he was running for president, he was basically a piece candidate. and so nato is bitten off way too much of that. it can chew on and i, i a my predict maybe i'm in the minority right now, but this was a bridge too far for this alliance, claiming itself that being defense. and i think we can see the end of nato as a result of this. eventually matthew, as well, i think the viability of the institution, which when i mean a lot of it is largely lots of times and dates of well over 30 years ago. i have but it has come to it is taken a huge hit obviously. and at this point i, i agree with you the, the reason why the people all mass voted for zaleski was because they perceive that he was going to be an anti nazi. you know, he is a jew, he's going to be an anti nancy candidate. he was going to seek peace and uh,

and with some form of a win win, a point of co existence with russia. and he spoke that we catered to that demand quite well until the push came to shove and, and we found him now as the same puppet, but he always was simply biding his time and being used by agencies. i don't even think he fully understands and possibly that he's petrified of, of as well, but as a corrupt but soon as we've seen with his uh, the recent uh, documentary series by scott ritter. um, but i think overall you're right, the, the, i, the very institution of nato has become the rest before world war 3. nobody even a needle once ukraine to be a part of it at this point. and uh, and it is with that losing it to the entire building to carry out the coordinated action quote, you know, it is absolutely right, because right, and i mean, if they were, if nato was so concerned about the security and sovereignty of ukraine walking,

doesn't inducted it doesn't care about ukraine, it doesn't care about ukrainian people whatsoever. you know, we heard at the very beginning of the conflict that you'd be secretary defense. so this is about weakening russia. it has nothing to do with ukraine. and then, you know, and i've said this before on this program is that, you know, we often ask, what will future historians say, but i think we have to look at a different location. what will psychiatrist say about a government that is using their own people and bringing them to slaughter and even their friends are not going to come to their aid. it's amazing to me, ryan, it is, but i think they might want to take a step further back and realize this is pretty much what the us government has done throughout its history. but what i think is interesting is to that very point, you know, bite and in his joint press conference with the finish. president said that basically the, you know, the weight to induct them into nato and till boot and pulls out. and ultimately that they go, well, wait a minute, won't that just give, put in the justification to drag this out. and i think that really, again, kind of brings to the point you just said,

isn't that seems to be the only point here is to really make sure that russia continues to, to use its resources to stay focused on this area. and i think really just like with syria, that ultimately feels like a secondary kind of we lost what we're trying to do. so let's just keep brushing mired here because i alternately feel like this gets much bigger when you realize you what we talked about. but you know, the funding of the also have moved into what they really are the nazi you neo nazi elements and how this ties back to the c i gave you an operation, aerodynamic, or project or dynamic. and how would i really think was this was ultimately about flushing this out into russia was seating nazi's into ukraine and then that drip that went over into the united states. and that's why we're dealing with this rise of white supremacy. and nazi is i'm and i think that kind of blew up in their face because of work like yours and independent media. so i think now they're just resigned to say, let's just cross all the red lines publicly as much as possible. because remember 30 seconds ago, the native conversation was a conspiracy theory, and now it's absolutely we're going to once this ends. so we kind of feels to me like a concession of their own. just say,

let's just keep them stuck here. well yeah, exactly what they're doing, what syria obviously is a good example. you're right. you know, john johnny is, it's really, really interesting, isn't it? is that particularly the left in america? they see nazis under every single rock, but they can find one nazi in care of amazing, isn't it? yeah, the environment is demoya things and they can support you crazy morning, so you're going to be destroyed. i can do lessons to be quite happy with the time should have already taken as long as nature continues to point to create impressions, buses out to the other, maybe take it with us or taco, of yes and size of the not. so you do not see elements, the system testing the dimensions of the stats by the guardian time magazine. yeah . vice doesn't that some good work and suddenly it was like, shut down, georgia was never a whole when it will start. it's funny that i don't even know how to fix johnny, they even went with, with allocation from the american congress. so there was a provision that in the,

these nazi factions and brigade should not get america american money, and that's been memory. hold still. okay. it's bought actually before, go ahead. what could i do that on 2016 was when they originally said no, and then quietly made sure it happened. and then again, in 2018, they added that they cannot, or they also have moved and even indirectly. and now they currently are. so they're violating their own legislation. but you know, ultimately it, it's, it seems to be very clear that this was about, we want people to see that there's not these here, like he's pointing out like we see the problem. and then it was memory whole, like i said, because i feel like the narrative kind of exploded. we started to realize this was seated not from russia, but from somewhere else that i think that really highlights kind of the field operation here. yeah, well matthew, it was, i think it was a 2 months ago or so are they new york times had this big expose a about the nazi problem and ukraine on it. and it's a very curious piece of journalism because they at 1st so you know, just rare instances of nazi regatta we and all about. but the further single time

we are in the article, it shows that it's ubiquitous in, in ukraine. it's really easy to be internal as here. i mean they're, they, they're, they're scribes to power. and i mean, they're not even very good propagandists anymore. matthew. yeah it's, it's really, um, it's desperate and you even saw the recently, b a, d l even came out saying that, uh, well, you know, the as a battalion. yeah. they're, they're bad. but now we support them. that the as of movement, which is different it's, it's a mike had some neo nazis in it, but it's not like a battalion there. the other ones were run by nazis and, and this is different. it's a different spirit. so go, go to love how they tie themselves into a pretzel. these people. yeah, no it's, it's, they can avoid their own their own of surgeries in their own self contradictions that just pile up like a bad, you know, it works. and if people see this, when you're, when you're trying to like fudge a fudge of calculation, when you're doing some math problem, a little, a little error at the beginning, seems like something. is there a reason why the person who keep north is builds up and builds up

a few steps down your you've got a giant mass, you can't resolve and they're there at that place and beyond that. and there's still try to fudge the data to, to make it seem like there's no miscalculation. you know, johnny, the, the, i've said very often in this program, the more the wes tries to help you crane the smaller in smaller it gets okay. and if there's no honest interlocutor to speak to and the west ukraine will get smaller . it's as simple as that, johnny. yeah, absolutely. and that needs to be an all around somewhere. i would say, potentially a good about lincoln's comment saying rush of is losing. ultimately, i mean it's, it's, it's, it's go hard to do how i got that. it could be pretty and count spencer's failings a catastrophic place. but if, if nato is the ends of peace negotiations, as russia goes, jason's will be giving up like least giving all the time she rushes taken. they're going to have to sell it as an extra you create is going to all of john johnny. i already have, i already have the bumper sticker. i already, i came up with this

a few months ago. at least potent didn't make it to pair us. we won. that's how the sound. right. let me get right. let me get right in here. go ahead. ryan, a hi, i just think that's hilarious because it's just, it's typical of always it's, it's the mission accomplished moment of bush just expert across the world. you know, it just so ridiculous how they can't be honest with the population even. i mean, you could argue that there were things that they could try to sell this as things that might be seen as positive. you know, we did the, even though we would argue with completely fabrication, but to argue somehow like that, this is still a wind, is just exactly what they're known for throughout history. and i, you know, i really demonstrates how weak in desperate they seem to be. and this is the fault, the collapsing, narrative or empire discussion. and i think as an american, as, as an american it, and we need to start differentiating between the government and the country. because when i speak like that, a lot of americans take offense to that. and that's, we need to realize that that government no longer really represents the american people and actions like this. demonstrate that, in my opinion, well in mind,

just to continue. i mean, it has to be explained to the public enemy, and there are many, uh, and we have a lot of friends, you know, max blumenthal every month, a glen greenwald, bank, and more of these kind of people are they explain why empire is bad for the american people, but it's hard to get through that after what, 70 years of imperial discourse. 30 seconds, right before we go to uh, before we finish up. go ahead. yeah, i completely agree. it's, it's, it's brain washing ultimately, and we see this with every, every narrative. we're dealing with and, but quite frankly, to leave on a positive note. i really do feel that people are seeing through this. americans are seeing through this, and that's demonstrated with the cold, with narrative, with all with ukraine. and i think that that's why this is getting more and more desperate because they realize that the narrative is collapsing. and so they're pressing more. but i quite frankly see that as a positive we need to start questioning everything. yeah, the more they push it to more negative return, so they get gentlemen, that's all the time we have one to take my guess in montreal, franklin and in moscow. and of course i want to thank our be worth for watching us here in our

t. so unix time and remember prospect rules the, [000:00:00;00] the, the, the color of the screen of the boss can do either steve with key at the washington state. the bruce, the computer is just the phone. i assume the

professional that video people have a list of all of a huge, but they use the headline stories. this, our crisis talks over the situation in nice year of ultimate them deadlines looting for the post presidents for lease electric change to meet the neighboring nigeria to the side on the course of action, while locals and the crew had country project any part of intervention. they don't have any solutions to offer us. they should lets us evolve with our solutions. let them work together with us here and find a favorable outcome. in my opinion, it's necessary to go through negotiations to have an exchange with the rebels in order to be able to agree. otherwise, the sanctions are not up to the rebels, but they take the sanctions as against the population. the leaders of russia and

turkey