people okay, so i mean it's a, it sounds like a scab on my right. i've been so why, why can you, i mean, why, why the focus ok now is that just random or are they just canyons or just people the, you know, a target audience not it's, this is another really great questionnaire, right? so in kenya, they are very used to mobile money are you, they used to using apps to pay for things that aren't necessarily the national currency. the biggest payment provided in kenya is a company called in pets. and you actually pay using mobile phone credit, full things. it's very, very common. so that's why i think they talk to kenyan 1st. but the kenyan government is saying this is very different than phone credits because you'll taking the data of all citizens and we don't know how you're going to use it. and it's all jump as the government of the southern country to protect the identity of the citizens. of that country, if you guys were interested in data more illegal apps activity, it seems those on that and i wonder what they do with is that data. anyway, chris,

i'm pleasure to illustrate back from the domain today in the studio is always good to talk to you too. well that wraps up how this msi news. i do check out all to call most of interesting story is the apps and that's all around the world will be back in just on the 30 minutes. there's always an awesome international news. so we hope you'll join us then, or a lead . the most famous wisdom, the lower in the world, is julian massage, the co founder of which he lives. he made a name for himself and for his organization in 2009 with the release of documents sent by chelsea. manning. then bradley, many, many of those documents embarrassed the american government and a video that many included now known as the collateral murder video, showed clear evidence of a war crime. i'm john,

carry onto. you're watching the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 julian assigned as a hero to many around the world who value transparency and human rights. the free speech absolutist has exposed countless governmental crimes, especially those committed by the united states, and has been a thorn in the side of washington policy makers for years. 3 successive american presidents had to deal with assigned with wiki weeks and with a fall out from would give weeks disclosures. there were different strategies. first, it was clear that the united states wanted to stop us on sooner rather than later. there was an attempt to have him arrested on sexual assault charges and sweden. and as such as fear was that even though the charges were false, it could be arrested and extradited to the united states. he sought refuge in the ecuadorian embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for

a period. but the c, i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. and they spied on assigned and every visitor he ever had. the pace picked up in 2017, when we can weeks published the volt 7 documents. these were some of the most sensitive spying methods that the c i a had ever developed. almost immediately the trumpet administered sion and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assange and then c. i a director, mike pompei o told the media that week. a week's was a hospital non state intelligent service. soon after that word leaked out from the c, i that it had discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. and the justice department asked the british government to extradite him to the united states to stand trial. he faces well over 100 years in prison. donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. many observers believe the deal

could be negotiated, that would see signs go free. after all, the obama administration had elected to not charge him with the crime. it would be reasonable to think that obama's concerns about prosecuting assigns while protecting the 1st amendment to the constitution would be biden's concerns. but that hasn't been the case. and juliet sanchez, very few options left in his legal defense were joined by jo loria. jo is the editor in chief of consortium news founded by the late robert perry. and he's a former journalist for the boston globe. the wall street journal. and the times of london. joe, thanks so much for being with us. that pleasure. be with you, john. always. we all know julian assange from news reports we know about his technical background. but tell us about the kind of person that is. why has he always been so concerned with transparency? well, he's from my early age, he was, his mother was a, as an activist. i think that influenced him strongly. and as a teenager,

he did engage in hacking, which is what the us government like people think he still does. and one of the earliest things he did was to have some us defense information during the iraq war . 1991, the us war on iraq to julie is an unusual person in that he has put his own safety is on future, his own life now on the line in the pursuit of what he considers to be justice and transparency. any combined that very strong sense of justice and his abilities as a journalist, speaking and writing with incredible technical skills that most journalists like myself, have a have very little of. so that combination allowed him to create with, with help wiki leaks in 2006, which was all but took, i think the us, british state and other governments by surprise. so new form of journalism, you know, newspapers that always published. sometimes 3 or 4 pages of documents that you

could read on a paper like parts of the pen on paper were published pending on papers, and i just 71 by the new york times. the idea of publishing thousands, if not hundreds, of thousands of government documents online that searchable. but any citizen could look up and find a diplomatic cable or a military uh, a note about something that happened in iraq or afghanistan or what was going on in a blood tournament. this was something extraordinarily new and it took, i think, the governments by surprise. but the new york times and the by asian, the spiegel and them, they moaned, they just, they all published the guardian. that's the one i forgot published the same stuff he did in 2010. so there was a sense then that this had to be published because they sat on this and would look worse than actually publishing. and of course, as we know, everything turned around on drawing after we can get into this, the dnc leak. because before that, when he revealed george bush's grimes,

republican crimes, of obviously democratic media, we're happy with that, but that changed. so this is at heart a political issue. but julie sanders, an unusual man. um and i think i could say that for sure. tell us about chelsea mannings decision to reach out to wiki leeks, way back in 2009. we're getting published a lot of things in that trunk of information that embarrassed the government, but none of it was particularly damaging. and the collateral murder video was evidence of a war crime. for many of us assign should have been celebrated rather than targeted . but that wasn't the response. why was the us government's response to assign, so heavy handed and do you believe that washington was trying to set him up on a 6 charge back then? but i don't know exact the answer to that. it does look like look like that. it's so much that there was certainly a lot of communication between the british, the crown prosecution service, and the swedish government about how to handle this case. and they tried to stop

the prosecutor from coming to london to interview them in the embassy. this is over the allegations of sexual misconduct that the 1st prosecutor in this case, after the 2nd day of these allegation, lemay dropped, dropped the when it was taken up later. so what exactly happened? there is not clear, may never become exactly clear what pressure was exerted on sweden and then on the police and the prosecutor's office to pick up a case that had been dropped. they also let him leave the hidden permission to leave sweden after he went to the police and spoke to them and then the case was dropped, flew to london, and then not long after he got here. and this is the time when he published to have done what diaries, this isn't 2010. i think october that they suddenly issue this arrest warrant. this red alert from the into paul. and it turned out that there wasn't even the court that issued that warrant from sweden. it was to prosecute

a different prospect. and then the one who initially dropped the case, who uh, who issued this and apparently the laws been changed because of that. in sweden. you have to have a court issue that you can have just to prosecute issue in a restaurant. so he, um, he was again, i can't say for sure what exactly precious will put on this. we just government, but it looks like something happened there that changed this whole thing around. and i have to say julian and his lawyers thought that at the time, and they said that this is not about being expedited sweden, but is going to be there's going to be on what expedition to the united states as then charge the trial on these charges that he now faces right now, espionage charges and a computer intrusion conspiracy to commit computer intrusion charge, which is not a hacking, by the way, the dot indictments do not accused of stealing the documents. so there's something fishy going on once we know which i can give you a better answer. john brock obama famously said that he did not charge us on to the

crime because the us government had what he called a new york times problem. can you tell us what that meant? if there had been a decision to not charge assigned with the crime, why was he forced to take refuge in the door in embassy? well, i could, after that, he went to the embassy because of the swedish tears. because i said that went forward and the extradition requests from sweden to britain to send him to sweden, to face questioning. basically, there are no formal charges. everybody makes that mistake all the time you read about rate charges and this there was no charges at all. they wanted in for questioning back in sweden, and he went all the way to the u. k. supreme court to stop the extradition and he lost. and before they could send them to sweden, he went to the equity or an embassy, and eventually got asylum and stayed there all those years until he was dragged out by the british police with a connivance of the new echo during government. so julian, as fond i was afraid of that i would extradition and they were very well aware of

that, but that's what was at the heart of this case, it wasn't about the swedish charges which kind of relates to the last question. you asked me that this looks like a set up that it was all about getting them on anything. they can get them on tax evasion. or this, this case where the women basically wanted him to get an a, an s t d test. and one of the women said the condiment broken, and that's why they wanted this. they never alleged rate. so this was, but apparently, you know, swedish has very little laws about that. so that was considered a sexual assault, possibly, although again, the charges were never made. so this was a kind of a looks like a set up to get him to go to the united states, and that's why they, he went into the embassy. they did not want to go to sweden, not to be questioned about this uh, the sexual issues, but the reset onto the united states. that's why he went into the embassy. the british government has been especially harsh and it's treatment of julia massage.

he was arrested technically on a bail jumping charge, but he's been held for years now in a maximum security penitentiary in london while he goes through the extradition process. why has he gotten such harsh treatment from the british? well, i'm like many people the most people who talk about this subject, i do not believe britain is a pool of the united states. i don't believe that they are just the vessel of united states that might fit germany more, but not britain, britain. is it called participant and us adventures abroad? this looked at the rock for think of margaret thatcher, telling george w bush. don't get wobbly about attacking iraq. it's where there are so many examples where the british government is very much in lock step with the united states and maybe even influencing their policy to stick out. and we're talking about foreign policy of the united states. and julie massage is a threat to any state that is committing crimes essentially or corruption. and they

have the power that we're seeing through the british courts to crush this man. like any tin pot dictated will do. just one, a reporter i have something i don't like know from in the dungeon. and of course the we hear this sentiment is stuff coming out of washington. much more than out of london about how these are human rights violations and us as intervene. this is all garbage because they, they intervene for their own strategic and political reasons and economic reasons, not because somebody's torture and someone because the america, so many allies to ride, to the 2nd world war, all those dictatorships and latin american saudi arabia, israel, they all documented great human rights violations. i'm not saying china or isn't, or there aren't interrupt you. almost every country has them, but they just pick and choose. so they use it in a phony way to go after countries saying that they are violating human rights. joe loria. thank you. so much for your insight, we have can take a short break, stay with us. for more of our conversation about wiki weeks,

co funder julian assigns. we're going to find out the status of julian's case in just a minute. the arguably the most famous wisdom, the lower in the world, is julian massage, the co founder of which he made a name for himself and for his organization in 2009 with the release of documents sent by chelsea. manning. then bradley, many, many of those documents embarrass the american government and a video that many included now known as the collateral murder video, showed clear evidence of a war crime. i'm john, carry onto your watching the whistle blowers

the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 julia sondra is a hero to many around the world who value transparency and human rights. the free speech absolutist has exposed countless governmental crimes, especially those committed by the united states, and has been a thorn in the side of washington policy makers for years. 3 successive american presidents had to deal with assigned with wiki weeks and with a fall out from would give weeks disclosures. there were different strategies. first, it was clear that the united states wanted to stop us on sooner rather than later. there was an attempt to have him arrested on sexual assault charges in sweden and the son, his fear was that even though the charges were false, it could be arrested and extradited to the united states. he sought refuge in the ecuadorian embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for a period. but the c,

i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. and they spied on assigned and every visitor he ever had. the pace picked up in 2017, when we can weeks published the volt 7 documents. these were some of the most sensitive spying methods that the c i a had ever developed. almost immediately the trumpet administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assange and then c. i a director, mike pompei o told the media that week. a week's was a hospital non state intelligent service. soon after that word leaked out from the c, i that it had discussed plans to assassinate assange in london. and the justice department asked the british government to extradite him to the united states to stand trial. he faces well over 100 years in prison. donald trump was the president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. many observers believe the deal could be negotiated, that would see signs go free after all the po box. put

them back to the list of lawyers and john to reaku. we're speaking with joe loria, he's the editor in chief of consortium news founded by the late robert perry. and he's a former journalist for the boston globe. the wall street journal. and the times of london. good to have you with us, joe. tell us about the status of julian's case right now. we know that the british high court recently ruled against him, but he has something of a 2nd shot before that court. does he not? as he does, there is going to be a hearing before 2 judges that will last 30 minutes. so a sondors lawyers have 15 minutes to try to save this man's life before these 2 judges. the they are initially submitted 11910 months ago, a 150 page document asking for the high court to appeal the decision of the lower court judge who did rule did release him,

quote unquote release, and then put them back in jail. and by denying a bell released him on the ground so that he would probably commit suicide if he went to a us prison. and that on the basis san juan. but he was thrown back in jail. the us then appeal that they went to the high court and they issued after that decision, they actually what was really new evidence that the high court accepted that of these assurances these diplomatic assurances that they would not mistreat julia such as the court accepted the lower court decisions that if we went to the us, he had suicidal tendencies and they, what they did was replace that or should see that with these assurances, they actually believe that the us would treat julian well and not mistreat him. and he has no dangers in the us a penal system. and of course there's also because the option that assurance is that if he does something that they judge to be wrong, whatever. and it's not specified, but that is a and you told me john,

on occasions that you know that if you look at a guard the wrong way, that could be a reason to throw somebody back in solitary. so he would be in solitary to find that despite the assurance is up as plain as day. but the high court, as i said before, britain is as intent on getting him for reviewing these state secrets as united states as so they, this high court did accepted those assurances and u. s. one. and then assad. wanted to go to this you, what you cation bring the court, the challenge that decision and the u. k. supreme court said no, we're not going to hear the case. so went back down to the last effort he had, which was to what, by so called cross appeal, which was to appeal that section of the lower court judge vanessa bernard, who agreed everything on points of politics in that document. her decision all agreed all with us on everything except that he was on he is health, wouldn't permit her to send him to the us. when that was overturn. assigned as

large files as cross appeal, whatever they would look at as you his rights to free speech. uh the uh, the abuses of due process. it was about $8.00 to $12.00 points that they argued of loss and the high court. after 9 months, one judge said jonathan swift with his little apportion reasoning, just rejected in 3 pages is $150.00 page a submission and said no denied, denied, denied. and that would mean they have one last chance which you asked me about, and that is this last ditch effort to go before 2 judges in a public hearing for 30 minutes. and we're waiting here in london for that to happen. it could be any day. nobody's ever informed of that. even a saw just people don't know. we were at 2 events in, in the problem and square on saturday. and then julian, sancha had a birthday party which of course he was conspicuously absent. but we heard a lot and we talked a lot to stella and kristen craft and send about what's going on and that it could

come at any time this hearing. and if they reject is here whenever they make that decision, as it could be put on a plan that night to the united states. there is one last chance, and that is europe being court of human rights, which is why as a sondors submitted, a filing in december, asking them to intervene. there are cases where the court hasn't to read. and when there was one here a year or so ago where some rwandan refugees were being sent back by the home secretary to rhonda where they clearly were in danger. and the plane was on the tarmac at a london airport ready to take off, and the european court of human rights ordered it to stop. and it did happen. so that's what they're hoping could happen. however, it's so complicated, and i've been researching this for a piece i want to do on the or a quarter of human rights, and then whether britain is actually obligated to the treaty in 1953. it's that set

this court up says that the federal states obligated to follow the rules of the court, the decisions of the court, which would mean that they have jurisdiction over all the members of the council of europe. so britain as well, part of this course, not a limited with the this is the council of europe, which britain is a member, so they are obligated according to the treaty. however, in 1998, the british human rights act, the language was different. it's. we're just quotes all i need to take consideration of the decisions of these so which one will. this is very much like the debate between the u. k. u. s. extradition trading, which was expeditions for political offences and the enabling act empowerment for that treaty which left that out. so we've got these 2 contradiction between in both cases, the treaty, the tradition, trudy and the act, extradition act and the human rights act of 1998, which seems to say something different than the treaty. so there's not

a lot of optimism amongst all just people that i've talked to here in london. that the e d. c h r you appear in court of human rights will be able to save joy. joe, give us your assessment of the government's case. the justice department, star witness is a convicted liar and a pedophile. certainly the prosecutor is, wouldn't want to go into court with that. it seems to me that it would be better for everybody if the prosecutors offered julian to deal with time served and then allow him to go home to us trail. yeah. that way, washington save space and julian would be free. is that even under discussion to the best of your knowledge? jennifer robinson, one of the joins lawyers in australia, but who's works here in london. actually set for the 1st time at the national press club, and camber on may 22nd. that they would consider a plea, but what is it going to play to that was never said before. there was talk of a so called out ford, please, which is a bizarre, a thing in the us. that's where

a defendant can say, i'm not guilty. i didn't do this, but i'm not going to get a fair trial. i know this is it will help us. i just want to get out. so i'll plead guilty technically, but i didn't do it. and this is what david hicks in australia was thrown into one tournament, actually used to, to get a plea deal in which they sent him back the street on the serve 7 months. so when this became a, there's a lot of exciting when biden was going to go to sydney to meet with albany to the prime minister anthony alban, ancient australia, and then it canceled the last minute this trip. but just before that caroline kennedy, the american, and that, yes, the daughter of slain j. f k. the door to the now us and past, which are still invited. 6 problem and 2 items from $3.00 to $2.00 parties, one independent to come for lunch, and camber, at the american embassy to discuss join us obviously, that couldn't have happened without the state department. it's not the white house approving that. so there was all this excitement, then albanese went on tv shortly 5 days before that he had said on a b, c,

television history on broadcasting progression. when he was here in london for the current nation, that he, what he has talked to american officials and he wants the case to and he's worried about his health. so there was this came up and then we found out the f. b. i still investigating the case and then the. 2 decided to check the hearing. so if there's going to be a plea, it's got to come with the last minute. and then joe biden remembers what he said in 2010. who knows? he would follow the principal then because nothing has changed. his case should be dropped, he knows that he knew there was no basis for it back then. and he knows now my what the trump administration did was add some to the computer intrusion conspiracy chart, which they got this guy in iceland. did you say a convicted of frauds there to say to the f b i as an informant? that that julian was going around telling people to hack and what was happening. and then the guy came forward to a nice trip to iceland, a newspaper. instead i lied. eliza,

that thing collapses. that's part of the case would collapse if the court steps that this guy saves now, then the lot. so nothing has changed. from 2010. invite and should do something to the right thing. with the julian supporters plan in the event that he's extradited to the us. if that happens, julian would be tried in the notorious district court for the eastern district of virginia. that's the home district of the c i a and the defense department. so what's the strategy on this got? there's a big closet in front of the federal court house in alexandria, which i have an apartment just a minute drive from there. by coincidence, i hope i will have to make that drive to cover this trial. but if he's there, i think that plaza would have to be filled with supporters and protests from around the country. if not the world. that's number one. number 2, there has to be heavy pressure. um, uh well this has to happen now and then hasn't happened. pressure on the

politicians, members of congress. no, julian has gotten support from presidents in latin america from now the prime minister of his own country. all human rights. what major human rights watch. sorry, human rights groups and pressed reading. groups of all come out behind them, even the new york times and those other papers i mentioned wrote a joint letter to merit garland, leads american attorney general saying dropped the charges. this is a threat to free pressed. it's not just about drawing sondra and nothing has happened yet. so what the strategy be other than to make a rock us and to try to make it a difficult political issue for about for joe biden, because it is going to be an election coming up next year. and just by me, want a media circus there and where it becomes clear that he's prosecuting a reporter for reporting wrongdoing by the united states, which is withdrawal supposed to do. it's so clear that becomes clear and clear to the public. and most importantly, if and this nbc, which on the 90 was arrested,

said it was wrong because all drugs are tracked here the new york times. editorial back then said that let alone this letter. so they know the mainstream and the most powerful like m assembly. she liked the new york times in the united states. they know what this means to journals into their own jobs. i remember rachel metro that night saying i don't like them, you know which of them like and because of the dnc, which, which is by the way right button is not moving because it's not in the environment the dnc leaks, or which the democrats still say helped hillary blues spiked the type of campaign she she ran and he was just publishing through information. nobody's denied that members of the and see how to resign because it was approved. and the c, i a bought 7 leaks which infuriated the c. i a and pop pay off to do, which is when he went after, during and even as we know from a court case in spain. and then by yahoo is reporting that there was a plans disgusted for his and or kidnapped julia, aside from the embassy. this is the cause of the c, i a leak and the dns. so,

so i think barton is going to be, is being pressure to would be by the dnc is on party with. he's supposed be the head of m a c. i a not to let the guy go, which has nothing to do with the environment at that. so buying us go back to square one back to meet the present 2010. when he said we didn't prove that. he started the documents and became the items. uh nothing is in the environment about the dnc leads or the c audit. it's a purely political issue that changed the face of this case for the uh bite and ministration. trump invited trump indicted him. trump took advantage of his arrest by this new government in ecuador is the trumpet ministration. that why would the, by the restriction follow the heated donald trump's administrative the right because it serves the c, r a and the dnc. now, jo, laurie a thank you for your insights and things to our viewers for tuning in being a profit in the wilderness. speaking truth to power often leads to poverty and punishment. it's far easier to follow the wins of public opinion,

but some things are black and white right or wrong, and it's always better to speak truth to power. that's what julian assange has done . thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john curiosity. we'll see you next time. 2 2 the, the, my only field you is that you should not stays home as i'm not doing the struggle for myself. i'm doing it for my nation, for you, for the future of your children. if you don't write up for your rights, you will leave the lives of slaves ever on cottages. his supporters pro tests as a focus on a quote sentences, the full of.