as order and peace preserving as this positioning wishes to appear ex is bound to lead to conflict or to discuss that i'm now joined from canada by victor. talk care for teachers. of course. the university of edmonton mixer is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for the invitation. x on it's a pleasure to be in this program. make sure you have a very interesting take on the current intentions between russia in the west, which ultimately comes down to the sides. deep seated perception of themselves and the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. s. as insistence on being the 1st among its most and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a class of self images could be resolved peacefully? well i, i, i cool, but it can be, but of course it is problematic given the how deep this cultural difference is, given how deep of the psychological difference is ultimately in terms of the

collective psychology, off of the leadership of the 2 sides. right. uh indians. uh this, this is the idea that came to me appropriate as a result of my a t change for a number of years. it's uh, uh, 2 religious institutions, ultimate, the race to a smaller universities here in edmonton, both of which are protestant foundations as a beginning. uh and uh, this, uh, this is something that may, may make me, made me looked look into, into this a religious origins of a political culture of the west end of the united states of america in particular. and then of course, my older research as a historian had to do with the cultural history of the policy uh, on the russian side. right. and specifically, because so he's to go to the russian, all the wars. so was there, i'd be that a lot of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of the mall of diplomacy is the

a perception. so the representation, we will definitely can discuss all of those differences. and i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically and the economically and socially before we go into that i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world as well you see story, etc. busy by the whole, those who look for differences 40 key areas useful, unique qualities of historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. it is probably the task of the political science as to the social logistics to, to focus on re send out a, he's on the universal, reproducible trans, right? but once again, i wouldn't have a whole re emphasize this, this, this, this difference. and yes, you know, as much as the way of periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less

equal terms, my arguments would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of the relations. let me see something that's more of the exception to exceptional because it's 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. man, you're arguing that the united states is exceptional in 2 major ways. it's joe graphy or rather geography granted security and being buffering by 2 functions. and 2 wicker and neighbors is exceptional ability to strike with impunity without the steering, i mean retribution of which essentially allow the americans to wage war is over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer now. uh, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adversary to my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism? well, i would say that it's exceptional and his desire, historically,

his desire to be equal along the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to join the european concert and the rpm and balance of power of the european club of great powers. and also the tags that he was part of that club for about a century and a house, or perhaps 2 centuries as an exception. that is, is also a reflection of the fact that he's pretty much the only remaining great power of this kind are now in your up or, or, and desk even using brother world. right. as it is a, is a tragedy. one of the sale of russia is that this club of european, great powers of which you wanted to the piracy for such a long time. he's no longer there. why don't interesting observation you're making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power that sort of appears through this perception of um, being impervious on the part of the americans. and if we here,

if you listen to them or the speech of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, they're still the strongest nation in the world that nothing threatens them. but do you think the americans in the field f, secure, and now as they profess it to be it, as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist understands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right? the was no feasible prospect of a major attack on the continental techy of the united states. right. and in that sense, as the 1st century in the house of american history passed in the exception of the sick your conditions, right? so that explains so much in the transformation of the united states of america, inter and major power of a global power of power. that was actually a seberio, right. and it's in its capacity is to any of the european great powers of the previous period. right? and then of course, comes to the of the cold war, which as i would argue for

a very long time, was still in a symmetrical confrontation given steel is a great discrepancy. the in the resources of the 2 sites, as well as in the level of security that they enjoy. but still, i would say that the most significant achievement isn't with of this over to you. and yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative security that the 2 sides enjoy. and in that sense, of course, uh, i would say that the soviet union's compromised show would save them better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of them. again, the approach to foreign policy on their collective cycle is you own the perception of russia even today, but, you know, makes our, i've spoken to many are storing, sleeps and many of them point out that during the cold war, i mean one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the united states

and russia engage an approximate counseling day, ma'am, a, a for that to intervene directly in the neighborhood of each other when they own the exception of the cuban missile crisis. but it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case in case. 0 and the a male dom argue that the united states move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. if you agree with this piece is what do you think? prompted this change of tactics on the american side, the, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. oh, yeah, so, but uh, 1st of all, i will the actually question of the, the magnitude of that change height. because as you kind of mentioned to the goal, more or less above all, it conflicts codes, right? but as a proxy wars the gym of the 2. so the bowers is we're taking place in africa,

south east asia, other places. right. but we should never turned into the actual war. and i think this is part of the world of trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition and they agree 0. busy no, no peace more, right. uh, and there's a clear distinction, but it'd be some rule that was once again, the characteristics of me, your appeal system of international relations in the 8th and 9th century. right. it's, it's, it's disappearing gradually. right? and we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades on what, what makes the cut and config different, of course, uses geography. right? it's no longer goal light. it's no longer get now it's no longer q, but it is in india grade. right? uh, and this is something that makes this conflict uh different uh, including in terms of how real i'm free are the 2 sides to this engage right now. all we've discussed before in the self assurance aptitude that the united

states historically had about it security. i think russell couldn't have been more different. you argue in your article that russian from never been privileged by an abiding sense of security quite on the country has been chronically and secure. oh, hasn't shaved its own um, national and political psychology and oh well i think that in the years of the cold war that's ultimately resulted in that's rather solid. but i would say approach of the solvent industry strategist says that consistent in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure and sold absolute security, which i think is, is absolutely unattainable. he's an illusion. ultimate, you see. and anyone the who is the only swat for rush or the soviet union or thing it's on attainable for the united states as well. i think that ultimately it's on the team to buffalo for, for any, any power in today's world. and the reason for that is well known to any specialist

on strategy is much cheaper. it technically easier to deny secure. usually i pulled them to, uh, secure, uh, absolute uh you know, uh, comfort for your folks for you, for yourself as the way right to, to make sure that the reason. busy all possible attack on your taxes, right? and that's all to be something that left in the context of the cold war. 2, that's a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the security of the 2 sides was kind of partially a jeep through some, some kind of equity librium of terra right. you call the speaking that's also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power and the that is uh on which the european concert was promised further or brought broader and applied to the americans as well. why do you think the americans played along with it for some time and now seem to be refusing to do so?

yes, yes. so, you know, this as 1 may say, that's a mad or mutual destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches to foreign policy that the codes rise the european concert. and in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, we're trying to continue that approach and international relations. they have success. but it's important to man because of this, these concepts and the, the overall, um, the interaction between the united states and the soviet union in, in terms of data. and in terms of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies thickness, side, 3 to of the already like in some of these then was, i would argue, or other exceptional periods, right? of parity. you use the complex of the cold war from which ultimately the space of a, you know, diverged or a bar to it, but by the late 19 seventies. right?

so i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of these parity based approach. i enter the name of security and that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra efforts, do you know, bring it about without speaking about exceptions. there is absolutely no exception to the rule that we have. take a break in the middle of our conversation. so states you into we will be back in just a few moments. the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the, the welcome back to was a par smith,

extra talk case with the teachers to ask him coordinator university of edmonton. now victor, uh you have another fascinating uh view onto this conflict. uh which i haven't seen many specialist wars. um, essentially it's an argument that this a lucian of the american self perception as a sort of the representation of, of god on this plan. a has been uh, in fact, a combination of not only geography, but also it's, um, it's really just thinking particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into the elect ones. and the uh, what was the trend for the wrap for me? um, yes. do you see playing out in their current politics as well? oh, well, you know, in the general sense, yes. uh, well, 1st of all, let me save that. of course, united states is the only country who is politically sort of themselves along those

terms. and indeed, walking 5 seamless themes in the history of a britain, the from so russia, right? but when you look, for example, as the russian version of this nation, especially in special relation to god, right, that we find the bubble that can rush a 70 and. busy entry, right, definitely bears of the influence of the bees and sign a political culture in which exceptional which it was confirmed as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, suffering, so that the nation went through because of course got lost. the, you know, got, makes software, those forms your loss, but make sure i have the, i may be wrong here. but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that, you know, this exceptionality denies. everybody else that exceptionality there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know,

the only arbiter all of the world affairs. yeah. well that's because in addition to heading, that's kind of busy on time legacy. once it gets that we wait, we could see in the southern century, irrational was of the same time geographically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political elites, recognized it's very federal situation and began to make efforts to overcome it, right. so as a result of these re leaves, the exception is this really, really just presidential, is the game diluted with a very shells the attitudes of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technology cleared both nations? absolutely. i think the testing by reality, becca, and because you make an argument that the every major european power also aspire to be a gentleman, but it's in the morning. uh, emissions. uh huh. o, o. we've gotten some push back from the neighbors. that's just a, you know,

essentially a benefit uh, sort of say, 05, really in a european environment? absolutely. well, that was the case of spain, the suffered major defeat into something such as that it was the case of from the some of the number of defeats of 8 and said already night in the center of the 40 and being a major was right. and that was even the case of great britain, right? that's why the global power for a long time. but then of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world, or was very dramatic. any kind of declassified and termed into a medium sized country, right? so in europe and nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception, that is, was kind of defeats as by the card. reality is right. or at least confronted with them in the, in a very significant way. and you know, the space a more or less a more or less the only exception to the general tendency. and then of course, has to deal with the fact that the jet radical situation of the united states as fundamental as that of an island. that is the size of the continents, right?

and that's something that's uh makes them so secure. i wonder if it also manifests and some domestic input. groceries will look into all day and we send the presidential campaigns. you'll always get some variation on the shoulder. a clinton was deplorable as common. you know, i think donald trump talk about talked about humans, campbell a bite and also made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. do you think uh this sort of the division of people of nations in should be lack the referent res also manifests itself in domestic with perhaps in the current solar ization in the united states of this us? yes, certainly liberal progressive in kent is seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation off off off of that kind of approach. right? because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious

consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century. in the time of the creation of the said, you can call and he's, but it seems that it has become secularized for sure. already, by the time of the american born independence, we can see significant secularization of that, of that, of that trans, the turn since we're kind of tied eulogy all success, right? that the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments. and again, as a reflection above all of the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. now, what can i think? i understand why the americans wouldn't be so infatuated with that on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar miss. but again, claiming that the, your own mist supersedes all others, isn't on ultimately as well wishing is it may appear, isn't that ultimately an attempt to deny, oh,

alternate all other nations to manifest their own destiny? because i mean, in personal psychology, we accept that each one of us is unique. i'm have us, he's or her own unique way, but the, essentially what the american political doctrine try it tries to put forth. is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. well, others? yes, yes, of course. i mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is the ability to regulate advice, usually other sites, just the same human beings as, as yourself. right? and you know, that sense if we apply of the psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. again, the exceptional geographical association of united states as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. a for the, you know, old and i can send, there's a century, there's not a, a made

a difficult wed say for the american leaders to recheck. advise, you know, the leaders of all the countries um, that, that equals, as it were. right? because a once again of the situation has been concerns and the circumstances in which the europe young leaders, in particular, historically where acting west sol, so manifested different from those of the united states. now, i don't know if you would agree with that, but i think this very concept of the end of history could only be born on the american soil and us present. it shows it as it may be. it reminds me on that 1000 moment, you know, just dump the beautiful moment and essentially into just the flow of history and prevent others from leaving that old version of what the americans have leased through. i mean, uh that sounds uh, so impossible to even consider and yes, for some reason the americans seem to be fluids voltages. do you think that's an

authentic belief or isn't ultimately a deliberate calculation to use the rest of the world and their resource base tracing, the american can stand on that on 2 feet without the you know, using the rest of the world as a supporting base. well, well, certainly much of that success story was uh, the product itself was, is there any advantages uh, economic uh, strategic relations and weaknesses, base where with with other countries. right. but at the same time, i think that we have to take culture and political culture and predictability seriously. right? because i do things that here we are dealing with things with psychological realities that definitely determine or this condition of the choices, the for them, political choices, including even the kind of crisis. now, as you mentioned in your past day in the united states, unlike the united states,

europe has never been insulated from the interest of conflict. and it gave rise to this very specific diplomatic and political culture which we have already discussed . the european concerns based on the idea of the balance of power balance of interest as a way to peacefully co exist, then ensure and logical model of what you want. if you argue that this way or from diplomacy, this way, of course, existing was destroyed during the 1st uh or 2 world wars. do you think there's any chance of recreating and as a way to where the 3rd world war perhaps as a result of this? well, i think that he's everybody's cool, but should be everybody's hope that there is such a possibility. it right. and indeed an ideal situation would be something like the re emergence of these european concerts. awful, bigger players on the, on an international scale. right? so oldest the, including not on the united states and russia, but that also china,

india, brazil. and so perhaps other other, other because nations right, of course is there is, there is one problem. so it will say with this uh, great power and quality concept that was good to raise, take off the are the on call search of the night essentially. and that was the side that's of the great bowers sometimes treated the rather kind of a d, l e in those nations that are smaller than that. right? so one has to be have to reinvent the score of these idea over global concerts, off of bowers in ways that would be accommodating lee, aspirations and interests of the smaller regional nations now are altering. now one of your article say, you mentioned that the united states or the americans always got surprised when other nations know the western in the, in the mentality gets sort of westernized or get the, a developmental boost without becoming lagging down or rather down, becoming subservient to them and that applies not only to russian, but also to try to k to china and perhaps the many other countries. nursing is just

the russians who get a fine piece of with the american version of the world as a lead, only by them. no, i think that's a rush, right? you shouldn't need the 1st a non west the nation to um, the goal was to use ation without losing its uh, just a goal solar energy as well. right? a bunch, a said some of the only one, right, because lumpkin bro, replace. uh awesome. and, and by then turkey and the same category one to place japan until the 2nd world war into these categories. which chinese to be a little bit different, different because of course, that was of all the century off of almost like 12 i colonial situation in which, you know, in which china china was right in the late ninety's, an early 20th century. but definitely we, i didn't hear with the fundamentally similar entities, right, that are distinguished, not only by the ministry important as by the economic size, but also by 7 psychology,

collecting psychology of the lead. so that's 6 to integrate certain measured amounts of the west, the new zation, west and east lenses waves is a job ready to go. sovereignty wanted also place perhaps you around the same category. there is, likewise, a country that has a long just deal with a zation, but that also, and a western attitudes you mentioned in your article on very diplomatic linda, this is tory clock of experience of weighing or negotiating your own interest against the interest of others. maybe some was problematic for the world today. and do you think that americans could be disabused of this kind of entitlement and if so, how well, i think that's a we have somebody some, some examples of, of all of that in the past. and i mentioned to as the dates out of the late night and 6 isn't early like seventy's when the significance of foreign body to go the

feeds brought in all about for a whole bunch of these, this pin valence of essentially european style diplomatic culture embodied by henry kissinger writes, is it presidential adviser to richard nixon in the later basic role play spaces by the way, on the european concert as well. absolutely. on the european diplomacy of the titles of yeah, the congress, the hype portions of the european, the all sorts. right? because of the great bowers rights off of the european views was this in the data and, and, you know, the american aspects of the data of off of a mistake of well, and i'm denial, right? so of course is not excluded in principle, but of course it will be a very long process that will require a lot of effort on the part of a once again, those are those countries that we mentioned right? that combine a certain degree of wisdom, ization with the attachments to an independent adjust the difficult nature has been

a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. thank you. and it's been a pleasure for me to thank you. thank you for watching coproducer and down on the walls of parts the of the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the russian states. never as one of the most sense community best, most all sense and up the speed. the one else calls question about this, even though we will ben in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on russia to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services for the question,

did you say they requested the headlines stories this our a university and done yet, space shell by ukrainian forces overnights and archie croup reports from this allies on night here. 1000 ultimatum given 5, a regional block. it was for the military to reinstate the us. the president expires today. locals, however, tell us side side interference is not all for michael, ged attack is on found it, it should not take place on the rights democracy and in