the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, the welcome to wells far as the americans have many selling gratifying that us for us all. why they and only they are supposed to be of the top of the international packing order that was leading democracy, shining city on a hill and benevolence of gem on all to support the idea that in the final analysis, they have an inborn paid all good tift you know and decide what's best for the rest,

and us order and peace preserving as this positioning wishes to appearance is bound to live, to conflict, or to discuss that i'm now enjoying from canada by victor. talk here who teaches at concord. the university of edmonton mixer is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for the invitation. x on it's a pleasure to be in this program. make sure you have a very interesting take on the current intentions between russia in the west, which ultimately comes down to the sides. deep seated perception of themselves and the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. s. as in systems on being the 1st among its most and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a clash will self image is could be a result this fully? well i, i, i cool right where it can be, but of course it is problematic given the how deep this cultural difference is

given how deep with the psychological difference is ultimately in terms of the call, like to say, call the g off as a leadership of the 2 sides right. um indians. uh this, this is the idea of came to me appropriate as a result of uh my uh, key chain for a number of years at, uh, uh, 2 religious institutions, ultimate, the rates. uh, it's a smaller universities here in edmonton. both of which i protest and foundations as a beginning. uh and uh, this, uh, this is something that may, may make me, made me look, look into, into, uh, these are really just the origins of, uh, political culture of the west end of the united states of america in particular. and then of course, my own research as a historian had to do with a cultural history of the us, the, uh, on the russian side. right. and specifically, the cultural histograms, the russian, all the wars. uh, so was there, i'd be that little of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of jamal example diplomacy is the perceptions. so the representation,

we will definitely can discuss all of those differences. and i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically and the economically and socially. and before we go into that i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world as well. you see story, etc. busy by the whole, those who look for differences for particularly are a useful, unique qualities of a historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. it is probably the task of the political scientist and the social logistics to, to focus on the center use of the universal, reproducible trans. right? uh, but once again, i would have a whole, re emphasize this, this, this, this differences. and yes, you know,

as much as the way of periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less equal terms, my arguments would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of the relations. let me see something that's more of the accession to exceptional because it's 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. ma'am, you're arguing that the united states is exceptional in 2 major ways. it's joe we're fee or rather geography granted security and being buffering by $2.00 oceans . and 2 wicker and neighbors is exceptional ability to strike with impunity without the steering, i mean retribution of which essentially allow the americans to wage the wars over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer. now, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adversary to and my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism? well, i would say that it's exceptional, and his desire, historically,

his desire to be equal along the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to joins the european concert or the european balance of power of the european club of great powers. and also the tags that it was part of that club for about a century and a house or perhaps 2 centuries. and then in succession, that is, is also a reflection of the fact that he's pretty much the only remaining great power of this kind are now in your up or, or, and desk even using brother world, right. as it is a, is a tragedy. one of the sale of russia is that's this club of european great powers of which you want it to be parts for such a long time. he's no longer there. why don't interesting observation you're making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power that's sort of appears through these uh, perception of um, being impervious on the part of the americans. and if we hear,

if you listen to them or the speech of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, they're still the strongest nation in the world that nothing threatens them. but do you think the americans in the field f, secure, and now as they profess it to be it, as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist understands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right? the was no feasible prospect of a major attack on the continental techy of the united states. right. and in that sense of the 1st century in the house of american history passed in the exceptionally secure conditions. right? so that explains so much in the transformation of the united states of america, enter s and major power of a global power of power. that was actually a seberio, right. and it's in its capacity as to any of the european great powers of the previous period, right? and then of course comes, they have the cold war, which as i would argue for

a very long time, was still in a symmetrical confrontation. given. steals is a great discrepancy. the in the resources of the, to the size as well as in the level of security that they enjoy. but still, i would say that the most significant achievement as well, of this over to you. and yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative securities of the 2 sides enjoy a and in that sense, of course, uh, i would say that the soviet union's compromised show was saves and better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of that. again, the approach to foreign policy on the collective cycle is you only have perception of russia even today. but, you know, rick, sir, i've spoken to many are storing slaves and many of them point out that during the cold war, uh, i mean, one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the united states and

russia engaged in a proxy conflict day ma'am. uh for that uh uh, to intervene directly uh, in the neighborhood of a child there when they only exception of the cuban missile crisis. but it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case case and the a male dom arguing that the united states move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. you agree with this piece is one day thing prompt and this change of tactics on the american side, the, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. oh yeah, so, but 1st of all, i was actually a question of the, the magnitude of that change height because as you kind of mentioned to the goal, more or less above all, it conflicts codes, right? but as a proxy wars, the gym of the 2 simple bowers that we're taking place in africa, south east asia,

other places. right. but we should never turned into the actual war. and i think this is part of the broader trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition and they agree 0. busy no, no peace, no more, right? uh, and that is a clear distinction, but a decent rule that was most together characteristic of me, your appeal system of international relations. simply atens and making the century . right. it's, it's, it's disappearing gradually. right? and we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades on what, what makes the cutting call think different. the worst use is geography, right? it's no longer goal light. it's no longer get now it's no longer cuba, it is in india grade. right. uh, and this is something that makes this conflict different uh, including in terms of how real i'm free are the 2 sides to disengage right now.

all we've discussed before this self assurance aptitude that the united states historically had about it security. i think russell couldn't have been more different. you argue in your article that russia from never been privileged by an abiding sense of security quite on the country, has been chronically and secure. oh, hasn't shaved its own um, national and political psychology. oh, well i think that in the years of the cold war that's ultimately resulted in that's rather solid. i would say approach of the solvent industry strategist says that consistency in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure it sold absolute security, which i think is, is absolutely, i'm attainable, he's an illusion. ultimate, you see. and anyway, i'm the only swap for rush or the soviet union or the thing it's unintelligible for the united states as well. i think that ultimately it's on the team to buffalo for, for any, any power in today's world. and the reason for that is well known to

a specialist on strategy is much cheaper. it technically easier to deny, secure, usually that pulled them to uh, secure, uh, absolute uh, you know, uh, comfort for your folks for you, for yourself as its way. right to, to make sure that there is no possible attack on your territory. right. and that's all to be something that let in the context of the cold war 2, that's a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the security of the 2 sides was kind of partially cheap through some, some kind of equity librium of tara, i'm right, speaking that's also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power and the, that is on which the european concert was promised further or brought in broader and applied to the americans as well. why do you think that americans played along with it for some time and now seemed to be refusing to do so?

yes, yes. so you know, that's, that's why i may say that's a mad i'll get you. the issue of destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches to foreign policy that characterize the european concert. and in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, we're trying to continue that approach and international relations. and they have success, but it's important to him, members of this, these concepts and the, the overall um, interaction between the united states and the soviet union in, in terms of data. and in terms. busy of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies thickness style 3 to of the, already like, and some of these then was, i would argue or other exceptional periods, right? of parity. you use the complex of the cold war from which ultimately the space of a, you know, diverged or a bar to it by the late 19 seventies. right?

so i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of these parity based approach. uh, end of the day, no security at the end of that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra efforts do you know, bring it about without speaking about exceptions. there's absolutely no exception to the rule that we have. take a break in the middle of our conversation, so stay tuned to we'll be back in just a few moments. the

the welcome back to worlds of par smith and fixed our talk case with teachers to ask him coordinator university of edmonton. now victor, uh you have another fascinating uh view onto this conflict uh which i haven't seen many specialist voice. um essentially it's an argument that this, i'm a lucian of the american self perception as a sort of the rep presentation on file. i've gotten this one of has been in fact a combination of not only geography, but also it's, it's really just thinking particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into that elect was. i'm be a uh, what was the trend for the rep freddie? um yes. do you see playing out in the current politics as well?

oh, well, you know, the general says yes, uh well, 1st of all, let me save that. of course, united states is the only country who has political any sort of themselves along those terms, and indeed walk in 5 seamless themes in the history of britain, the from so russia, right? but when you look, for example, at the russian version of this nation, specially in special relation to god, right, that we find the bubble the can the rest of the 17th century, right? i mean, definitely bears of the implants of the bees and sign a political culture in which exceptionality was confirmed as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, suffering, so that the nation went through because of course, got lost. the, you know, got, makes software, those for us. but make sure i have the i may be wrong here, but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that you know, this exceptionality denies everybody else. the exceptionality,

there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know, the only arbiter all 5 of the world affairs. yeah. well that's because in addition to heading, that's kind of busy on time legacy. once again that we wait, we could see in the southern century, irrational was at the same time joe, graphically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political elites, recognized it's very federal situation and began to make efforts to overcome it, right? so as a result of these re, please. the exception is this really, really just presidential, is the game diluted with a very healthy attitudes of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technology cleared bonds. nations also the testing by reality. and because you, you make an argument that the, every major european power also aspire to be

a gentleman, but it's in the morning edition. so have o o. we've gotten some push back from the neighbors. that's just a, you know, essentially a benefit uh, sort of say, 05, really in a european environment. absolutely. well, that was the case of spain, the suffered major defeated. the somebody says you that was the case of, from the some of the number of defeats of 8 and said already night in the center of the party and being a major was right. and that was even the case of great britain, right? that's one of the global power for a long time, but then of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world here was very dramatic, couldn't kind of declassified and termed, into a medium sized country, right? so in europe, young nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception, that is, was kind of defeats as by the card. reality is right. or at least confronted with them in this, in a very significant way, spend, you know, the space a more or less a more or less the only exception to the general tendency. and then, of course,

has to deal with the fact that the geographical situation of the united states as far as the value of an island, that is the size of the continents. right. and that's something that's uh makes them so secure. i wonder if it also matters fast and some domestic integrated to look at the old a and we send the presidential campaigns. you'll always get some variation on the she only re, quinton was deplorable as comments. you know, i think donald trump talk about talked about humans. campbell asked by and also made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. do you think this sort of the division of people or nations in should be lack the referent res also manifests itself in domestic with perhaps in the current flows ation in the united states. oh, this us yes. certainly liberal progressive in kent is seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation of off off of that kind of approach, right?

because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century. in the time of the creation of the said, you can call and he's, but it seems that it has become secularized for sure. already, by the time of the american born independence, we can see significant secularization of that, of that, of that trans, the turn since we're kind of tied eulogy all success, right? that the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments. and again, as a reflection above all, the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. now, what can i think? i understand why the americans wouldn't be so infatuated with that on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar missed but again,

a cleaning that the your own miss supersedes all all others. isn't that ultimately as well wishing is it may appear? isn't that ultimately an attempt to deny oh, alternate all other nations to manifest. 6 own destiny because i mean, in personal psychology, we accept that each one of us is unique and have us, he's or her own unique way. but the, essentially, what the american political doctrine try it tries to put forth is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. well, others, yes, yes, of course. i mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is very good advice. you know, the other side, just the same human beings as, as yourself, right. and you know, that sense if we apply of the psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. again, the exceptional geographical association of united states as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. a for

the, you know, old and i can send, there's a century, there's not a, a made it difficult wed say for the american leaders to recheck. advise in the leaders of all the countries um, that the equals, as it were, right? because a once again of the situations that concerns the circumstances in which the europe young leaders, in particular, historically where acting west sol, so many assess the different from zillow. so from the united states, now i don't know if you would agree with that, but i think this very concept of the end of history could only be born on the american soil and us present. it shows it as it may be. it reminds me on that 1000 moment. you know, it's a something beautiful moment and essentially into just the flow of history and revenge. others from really the old version of what the americans have

leased through. i mean, uh that sounds uh, so impossible to even consider and yes, for some reason the americans seem to be fully devoted to. do you think that's an authentic belief or isn't ultimately a deliberate calculation to use the rest of the world and their resource base? do you think the american can stand on that onto faith without the you know, using the rest of the world as a supporting base? oh well uh certainly uh much of that success story was, uh, the product itself was, is there any advantages uh, economic uh, strategic relations. and we need a space where with, with other countries. right. but at the same time, i think that we have to take culture and political culture and predictability seriously. right? because i do things that here we are dealing with things with psychological reality is that definitely determine or this condition of the choices, the for somebody to go choices. not including the kind of crisis. now,

as you mentioned in your past day in the united states, unlike the united states, europe has never been insulated from the interest of conflict. and it gave rise to this very specific diplomatic and political culture which we have already discussed . the european concerns based on the idea of the balance of power balance of interest as a way to peacefully core, exist on insure and logical. most of what you want. if you argue that this way or from diploma seen this way of core existing was destroyed during the 1st uh, 2 world wars. do you think there's any chance of recreating and as a way to where the 3rd world war perhaps as a result of this? well, i think that he's everybody's whole big should be everybody's hope that there is such a possibility. it right. and indeed an ideal situation would be the something like the re emergence of these european concerts. awful, bigger players on the, on an international scale. right?

so old does the, including the united states and russia, but that also china, india, brazil, and so perhaps other other, other brick got nations. right. of course there is, there is one problem. so we'll say with this uh, great power and quality concept that was kind of domestic off of the european call search of the night essentially. and that was the fact that's of the great bowers sometimes treated the rather kind of a d, l, e and those nations that are smaller than that, right? so one has to be have to reinvent these, call these idea over global concerts off of bowers in ways that would be accommodating lee, aspirations and interests of the smaller regional nations now are altering now one of your article, say, you mentioned that the united states or the americans always got surprised when other nations know western in the, in the mentality gets sort of westernized or get a, a developmental boost without becoming lagging down, or rather down,

becoming subservient to them. and that applies not only to russian, but also to try k to china. and perhaps the many other countries facing, of just the russians who get a fine piece of with the american version of the world as a lead, only by them. no, i think that's a rush, right? you shouldn't need the 1st and all the west, the nation to on the goal wisdom is ation without losing its uh, just a goal, solar energy as well. right? a bunch of a say some of the only one, right? because lumpkin bro, replace, uh, awesome. and then by then turkey in the same category. walton plays japan until the 2nd world war into these categories. which chinese to be a little bit different, different because of course, that was of all of the century off of almost like 12, a colonial situation in which in which china china was right in the late ninety's, an early 20th century. but definitely,

we are dealing here with the fundamentally similar entities, right, that are distinguished, not only by the ministry importers, by the economic size, but also by said in psychology, collective psychology of the lead. so that's 6 to integrate certain measured amounts of west and his ation, west and east lenses. waves is a job ready to go sovereignty. one could also place perhaps you around in the same category. there is, likewise, a country that has of last tuesday or wednesday zation, but that also, and a western attitudes you mentioned in your article, very diplomatically into this historic lack of experience of weighing or negotiating your own interest against the interest of others. it may be somewhat problematic for the world today. and do you think that americans would be disabused of this kind of entitlement? and if so, how well, uh, i think that's a, we have somebody some,

some examples of, of, of that in the past. and i mentions of the dates of, of the late night and 6 isn't early 19 seventy's when the significance of foreign political defeats brought him all about for a whole bunch of these, this pin valence of essentially european style diplomatic culture embodied by henry kissinger, writes, is it present shall advisor to richard nixon and later the role play spaces by the way on the european concert as well. absolutely. on the european diplomacy of the time of the piano congress, the hype portions of the european, the all search, right? because of the great bowers rates off of the european teams, was this in the data and, and, you know, the american aspects of the data and off of a mistake of well, and i'm denial, right? so of course is not excluded in principle, but of course it will be a very long process that will require a lot of effort on the part of a once again, those are those countries that we mentioned right?

that combine a certain degree of wisdom, ization with the attachments to an independent adjustment going. all nature has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. thank you. and it's been a pleasure for me to thank you. thank you for watching culture, sir. again, what was the part the, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy from

foundation. let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very unclear to get a time time to sit down and talk the question, i mean, you cleared up, she was like, i do live muscles. if you look on the initial, do 1 o'clock, significantly post on zillow, while it be almost getting used to a new do origin by the authors to was done the newest frame

on the buildings systems to build a new do what i see these the buses, the little gear limitations as do some uh, tutorial on both of the as a deadline for possible for an military intervention in niger loons. another offer again, nation, algeria rejects any such action saying it would be a threat to its own security as well. also it had on the train is accused of firing, a garage of british supplied missiles out a bridge that connects probably me us with a recently incorporated russian region. the 1st one we saw hit the structure one, the rest were intercept 78 years ago. today, the us decimated the jump in the city of her rushman,