i there were 12 of us who got here 1st, and we started rescuing the injured people, including children, and the elderly people. they were in bad condition. some of them had broken hands and legs. we did what we could on your locals in progress on the side of the country. railway system is an in drastic need of a pass. and 5 year old sir, you will see your thoughts at 5 pm. now we have been told that it will leave at 8. it might even get as late as 10. well wait and you know, we're suffering because of the pool railway system. next will the pomp and will be back at the top of the or the

wrong welcome to wells the far as the americans have many cell gratifying that a torres of why they and only they are supposed to be at the top of the international packing order. that was leading democracy, shining city on a hill and benevolence of gem on all to support the idea that in the final analysis, they have an inborn paid all good tift, you know, and decide what's best for the rest. and as order and peace preserving as this positioning wishes to appearance is bound to lead to conflict or to discuss that i'm now enjoying from canada by victor. talk here who teaches at concord the university of edmonton. victor is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for the invitation. x on it's a pleasure to be in this program. make sure you have a very interesting take on the current intentions between russia and the west,

which ultimately comes down to the sides. deep seated perception of themselves and the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. s. as in systems on being the 1st among equals and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a class will self images could be a result this fully? well i, i, i cool rate but it can be, but of course it is problematic given the, the, how deep this cultural difference is given how deep with the psychological difference to use ultimately in terms of the collective psychology, off of the leadership of the 2 sides. right indeed, so this, this is the idea of gain to mean appropriate as a result of, of my a t chain for a number of years at 2 religious institutions, ultimate, the race. it's a small universe this year in edmonton, both of which i protest and foundations as a beginning. uh and uh, this, uh, this is something that may, may make me,

made me look, look into, into, uh, these are really just the origins of, uh, political culture of the west end of the united states of america in particular. and then of course, my older research as a historian had to do with the cultural history of the us, the, uh, on the russian side. right. and specifically, the cultural histograms, the russian, all the wars. uh, so was there, i'd be that little of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of jamal example diplomacy is the perceptions. so the representation, we will definitely can discuss all of those differences. and i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically and the economically and socially. and before we go into that, i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world as well. you see story,

etc bought by the whole. those who look for differences for the key areas useful, unique qualities of historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. it is probably the task of the political scientist and the social logistics to, to focus on the center. he's on the universal, reproducible trans, right? but once again, i was a whole re emphasize this, this, this, this difference. and yes, you know, as much as the way periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less equal terms, my argument would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of their relations. let me see something that's more of the exception. exceptional because uh, it's 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. ma'am, you are getting the united states. it is exceptional in 2 major ways. it's joe we're fee or rather geography granted security and being buffering by $2.00

functions and 2 wicker and neighbors. and if exceptional ability to strike with impunity to you, without the steering, i mean retribution, which essentially allow the americans to wage the wars over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer. now, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adverse survey to my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism? well, i would say that it's exceptional in his desire, historically his desire to be equal along the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to joins the european concert and the rpm and balance of power of the european club of great powers. and also the tags that he was part of that club for about. so essentially in the house what perhaps 2 centuries. and then in succession, that is, is also a reflection of the fact that he's pretty much, the only remaining great power of this kind. are now in europe or, or, and dest,

even in the brother world, right? they, they transferred, you want the same restaurant, is that's this club of european great powers of which you wanted to be part of for such a long time. he's no longer there. why don't interesting observation you're making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power that's sort of appears through these uh, perception of um, being impervious on the part of the americans. and if we here, if you listen to them or the speeches of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, they're still the strongest, the nation in the world that nothing threatens them. but do you think the americans in the field f, secure, and now as they profess it to be it, as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist understands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right? the was no feasible prospect of a major attack on the continental tag of the united states. right. and in that

sense of the 1st century in the house of american history passed in their exceptionally sick your conditions. right? so that explains so much in the transformation of the united states of america, enter s and major power of a global power of power that was actually of seberio, right. and it's in its capacity as to any of the european great powers of the previous period, right? and then of course comes, they have the cold war, which as i would argue for a very long time was deal and a symmetrical confrontation given steel is a great discrepancy. the in the resources of the, to the size as well as the level of security that they enjoy. but still, i would say that the most significant achievement as well, of this over to you. and yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative securities of the 2 sides enjoy. and in that sense, of course, uh,

i would say that the soviet union's compromised show was saves and better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of that. again, the approach to foreign policy on their collective cycle is, you only have perception of russia even today. but, you know, rick, sir, i've spoken to many are storing slaves and many of them point out that during the cold war, uh, i mean, one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the united states and russia engaged in a proxy conflict day ma'am. uh for that uh uh, to intervene directly uh, in the neighborhood of a child there when they only exception of the cuban missile crisis. but it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case case and the a male dom arguing that the united states move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. you agree

with this piece is what do you think prompted this change of tactics on the american side, the, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. oh yeah, so, but uh, 1st of all i was actually question of the, the menu, do you have that changed because you kind of mentioned the goal more or less above all, it conflicts codes, right? but as a proxy wars, the gym of the 2 simple bowers that were taking place in africa, south east asia, other places. right. but we should never turned into the actual war. and i think this is part of the broad of trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition and they agree 0. busy no, no peace, no more. right? uh, and there's a clear distinction, but it'd be some rule that was once again, the codes are istic of me, your appeal system of international relations. simply aiden's in might in the century. right? it's, it's, it's disappearing gradually. right?

and we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades all what, what makes the cutting call think different. the worst use is geography, right? is no longer goal light. it's no longer get now it's no longer cuba, it is in india grade, right? uh, and this is something that makes this conflict different uh, including in terms of how real i'm free are the 2 sides to disengage right now. all we've discussed before in this self assurance aptitude that the united states historically had about it security. i think the russell couldn't have been more different. you argue in your article that russia from never been privileged by an abiding sense of security quite on the country, has been chronically and secure. oh, has it shaved uh, its own um, national and political psychology and well, i think that in the years of the cold war that's ultimately result of you know,

that's rather solid. but i would say approach of the solvent industry strategist says that consistency in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure and sold absolutely security, which i think is, is absolutely unattainable. he's an illusion. ultimate, you see. and anyone who is the only swat for russian or the soviet union or the thing, it's on a tangible for the united states as well. i think that ultimately it's on the team to buffalo for, for any, any power in today's world. and the reason for that is well known to a specialist on strategy is much cheaper. it technically easier to deny, secure, usually that pulled them to uh, secure, uh, absolute uh you know, uh, comfort for your folks for you, for yourself as the way right to, to make sure that the reason. busy all possible attack on your territory, right? and that's all to be something that let in the context of the cold war. 2, that's a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the

security of the 2 sides was kind of partially cheap through some, some kind of equity. librium of tara, right, you call the speaking that's also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power and the that is on which the european concert was promised further or brought in broader and applied to the americans as well why do you think that americans played along with it for some time and now seemed to be refusing to do so? yes, yes. so, you know, that's, that's why i may say that's a mad on gives you the issue of destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches. the foreign policy that codes rice, the european concert. and in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, we're trying to continue that approach and international relations. and they have success. but it's important to him, members of this, these concepts and the, the overall, um, interaction between the united states and the soviet union in,

in terms of data. and in terms of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies thickness style 3 to of the, already like. and some of these then was, i would argue, or other exceptional periods, right? of parity, you, you the complex of the cold war from which ultimately they know the space of a, you know, diverged or a bar to it by the late 19 seventies. right? so i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of these parity based approach. uh, end of the day, no security at the end of that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra efforts do you know, bring it about without speaking about the exception. there's absolutely no exception to the rule that we have. take a break in the middle of our conversation, so stay tuned to we'll be back in just a few moments. the

welcome back to was a par smith and fixed our talk case with teachers as come coordinator university of edmonton. now victor, uh you have another fascinating um view onto this conflict uh which i haven't seen

many specialist wars. um essentially it's an argument that this evolution of the american self perception as a sort of the, the. a presentation of, of god on this, one of has been in fact a combination of not only geography, but also it's, it's really just thinking particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into the elect was. i'm the uh, what was the trend for the rep for me? yes. do you see playing out in their current politics as well? oh, well, you know, in a general sense, yes. well 1st of all, let me save that. of course, the united states is the only country who was politically thought of themselves along those terms. and indeed welcome 5 seamless themes in the history of britain, the from so russia, right?

but when you look, for example, as the russian version of this nation, especially in special relation to god, right, that we find the bubble begin the rest of the 17th century, right? it definitely bears of the implants of the bees and signed a political culture in which exceptionality was confirmed as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, sufferings, that the nation went through because of course, got lost. the, you know, got, make, suffer those for us. but uh, make sure i have the i may be wrong here, but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that, you know, this exceptionality denies everybody else that exceptionality, there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know, the only arbiter of uh, of the world affairs. yeah. well, that's because in addition to head things that's kind of busy on time legacy was together, wait, wait, we could see of the 17th century. irrational was of the same time joe,

graphically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political leads recognize it's very fair old situation and began to make efforts to overcome it. right. so as a result of these re, please, exception is this really, really just presidential is became diluted with a very healthy attitude of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technology cleared bonds nations. i told him a i think was like testing by reality, becca. and because he make an argument that the every major european power also aspire to be a gentleman, but it's in the morning. uh, emissions. uh huh. o, o, we've gotten some push back from the neighbors. that's just a, you know, essentially a benefit uh, sort of say, oh, so really in a european environment. absolutely. well, that was the case of spain,

the suffered major defeating the something especially that was the case of from the some of the number of defeats of agents that are already night in the center of the party and being a major was right. and that was even the case of great britain, the right, that's why the global power for a long time. but then of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world here was very dramatic. couldn't kind of declassified and termed, into our medium sized country, right. so in europe, young nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception, that is, was kind of defeats as by the card. reality is right. or at least confronted with them in a, in a very significant way. and uh, you know, the space of more or less, more or less the only exception to the general tendency. and then of course, has to deal with the fact that the geographical situation of the united states is funding it. is that of an island that is the size of the continents. right. and that's something that's uh makes them sole secure. i wonder if would also manifest themselves domestically progressive to look at the all day and resend the

presidential campaigns. you'll always get some variation of the she'll or a clinton was deplorable as common. you know, i think donald trump talk about talked about humans. campbell asked by the and also it made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. do you think this sort of the, the vision, all 5 people of nations in to be locked and the rep from res also met if asked itself and domestic with perhaps in the current fuller ization in the united states of this us? yes, certainly, liberal progressive is kept, is seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation of off off of that kind of approach. right? because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century. in the time of the creation of the said, you can call and he's, but it seems that it has become secularized for sure. already by the time of the

american board of independence, we can see significant secularization of that of that, of the trends, the terms and so it kind of probably you'll adjust success, right the, the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments. and again, as a reflection above all, the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. now what can i think, i understand why the americans wouldn't be so infatuated with that on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar missed but again, claiming that the your own mist supersedes all others. isn't that ultimately as well wishing is it may appear? isn't that ultimately an attempt to deny all, all the, all other nations to manifest their own destiny? because i mean, in personal psychology, we accept that each one of us is unique. i'm have us, he's or her own unique way,

but the, essentially what the american political doctrine try it tries to put forth. is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. well, others? yes, yes, of course. i mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is the ability to recognize usually other sites, just the same human beings as, as yourself. right? and you know, that sense if we apply of the psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. again, the exceptional geographical association of united states as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. a for the, you know, old and i can send, there's a century, there's not a, a made it difficult wed say for the american leaders to recheck. advise in the leaders of all the countries um that the equals, as it were, right?

because a once again of the situation has been concerned with the circumstances in which the europe young leaders, in particular, historically where acting west sol, so many assess the difference from zillow. so from the united states, now i don't know if you would agree with that, but i think this very concept of the end of history could only be born on the american soil and us present. it shows it as it may be. it reminds me on that 1000 moment, you know, just the beautiful moment and essentially into just the flow of history and revenge. others from really the old version of what the americans have believe through. i mean uh that sounds uh so impossible to even consider. and yes, for some reason the americans seem to be fluids voltages. do you think that's an authentic belief or isn't ultimately a deliberate calculation to use the rest of the world and their resource base?

do you think the american can stand on that onto faith without the you know, using bay and the rest of the world as a supporting base? oh well uh certainly uh much of that success story was, uh, the product itself was, is there any advantages uh, economic uh, strategic relations. and we need a space where with, with other countries. right. but at the same time, i think that we have to take culture and political culture and predictability seriously. right? because i do think that here we are dealing with things with psychological reality is that definitely determined or this condition of the choices, the for somebody to go choices. not including even the kind of crisis. now, as you mentioned in your past day in the united states, unlike the united states, europe has never been insulated from the interest of conflict. and it gave rise to this very specific diplomatic and political culture which we have already discussed . the european concerns based on the idea of the balance of power balance of

interest, as a way to peacefully core, exist on insure and logical most of what you want. if you argue that this way or from diplomacy this way, o, 5 or existing was destroyed during the 1st uh or 2 world wars. do you think there's any chance of recreating and as a way to where the 3rd world war perhaps as a result of this? well, i think that he's everybody's whole, but should be everybody's hope that there is such a possibility. it right. and indeed, an ideal situation would be something like the re emergence of these european concerts awful, bigger players on the, on an international scale. right? so old does the, including not on the united states and russia, but that also china, india, brazil. and so perhaps other other, other, because nations right, of course there is, there is one problem. so we'll say with this uh, great power and quality concept that was kind of domestic off of the european call

search of the night century. and that was the size. that's of the great bowers, sometimes changes around the cavity and those nations that are smaller than that, right? so one has to be have to reinvent these, call these idea over global concerts off of bowers in ways that would be accommodating lee, aspirations and interests of the smaller regional nations now are altering now one of your article, say, you mentioned that the united states or the americans always got surprised when all the nations and all the western in the, in the mentality gets sort of westernized or get a, a developmental boost without becoming lagging down, or rather down, becoming subservient to them. and that applies not only to russian, but also to try k to china. and perhaps the many other countries facing is just the russians who get a fine piece of with the american version of the world as

a law. 9 only by them. no, i think that's a rush, right? you shouldn't need the 1st i'm on the west, the nation to on the goal list and use ation without losing its uh, just a goal. solar energy as well. right. a bunch. a said some of the only one, right, because lumpkin bro, replace, uh, ultimate in via then turkey in the same category. one to place japan until the 2nd world war into these categories. which chinese to be a little bit difficult different because of course the was of all of the century off of. busy like, well, they colonial situation in which in which china, china was right in the late ninety's, an early 20th century. but definitely we are dealing here with the fundamentally similar entities right. that are distinguished, not only by the ministry importers, by the economic size, but also by said in psychology, collective psychology of the lead. so that's seek to uh, integrate a certain measured and balance of the west, the new zation,

west and east lenses waves is a job ready to go. sovereignty wanted also place perhaps you around the same category. there is, likewise, a country that has a last you through it with a zation by that also, and a western attitudes you mentioned in your article and very diplomatically into this distorted clock of experience, or weighing or negotiating your own interest against the interest of others. maybe some was problematic of what the world today and do you think that americans would be disabused of this kind of entitlement? and if so, how well, uh, i think that's a, we have somebody some, some examples of, of, of that in the past. and i mentions of the dates out of the late night and 6 isn't early 19 seventy's when the significance of foreign political defeats brought about about for a whole bunch of these, these uh, they was of essentially european style diplomatic culture embodied by henry

kissinger rights is it presidential advisor to richard nixon in the later basic role play spaces, by the way, on the european concert as well. absolutely. on the european diplomacy of the time of the piano congress, the high points of the european, the all search, right. because of the great bowers rates off of the european teams, was this in the data and, and, you know, the american aspects of the data and off of mistake of well and i'm denial, right? so of course, it is not excluded in principle, but of course it will be a very long process that will require a lot of effort on the part of a once again, those are those countries that we mentioned right? that this combine a certain degree of wisdom, ization with the attachments to an independent adjuster. let's go with all this. there has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. thank you. and it is now a pleasure for me to thank you. thank you for watching coproducer again,

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the, the thousands of people gather of the stadium in the capital, albany shares as opposed to what the government side of the country is facing the deadline for. eventually grain is accused of a fire, we have a rise of resolution supplied miss solve. it's a race that connects crimea with the recently incorporated and watching a region of has on employment. so here's the structure, while some gonna use it as a day, the us decimated the base of the of the rough him up with the 1st ever used over the top make palm instantly. cuba,