but such turning points have repeated through millennia, one of the greatest living futurist historians known for accurate the predicting the 20 o 8 west in economic crisis and who was advised governments is progressive. michael hudson, the wall street veteran and god, son of leon trotsky. author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity, the 2nd, the latest of all him in his trilogy on the origins of death, joins me now from new york city. thank you so much. as i say, i'm going to ask uh whether uh it was just coincidental. um the volume 2 of the trilogy above the collapse of empires through unsustainable death comes out this. yeah. given that everyone in the global south is talking about the collapse of the united states and suddenly the collapse of the dollar as well. not only the united states as the whole of western civilization that is based on the oligarchy and people don't realize how. ready bruce and rome made a detour away from everything that advantage marries in asia and the rest of the

world before and the the, the car was they get rid of any kind of government checks on their own creditors on the oligarchy, and the people they come in when board send essentially foreclosing on the land and expropriating, the population ending alpha, the, populating the land, the losing, their, their economy, even the white house and the buildings. the congress built on the idea of classical antiquity and trying to imitate the style to show that continuity of style at how is it the thousands of years and i don't know whether you expect just your book . i mean, some people who have have, have jeffrey son quad as being lots of people that have been talking about this, but no one. so concise. he talking about debt arguably is the major elements here. well, how can your one book not only show that the continuity is wrong,

this is not where it comes from. uh, western civilization that it just comes from ancient rome or ancient greece, but also that it was about death. how can, how can this me overturn this idea of history in such a singular 2 way? there are 2 ways of looking at the moment in greece. history. one way is to say, how would we have done it? we would have gone back to greece and rome today, and we would have made the old world look like got the width of trying to make the right or whatever, but like, uh, uh, the lighting but uh, the alternative is very rarely done. and what did the roman historians, right? what was happening is know what the error style of weight. oh uh and the brakes describe about what was happening in brace. and they were all in the agreement. there was one common denominator. they are, they all emphasized of the role of that in over as well were arising economic like

and if you read their histories written by levy and the other all in the story and is a century up with century of popular revolves trying to cancel the dance and redistribute the lamb, the band monopolized by creditors for closing. and the big thing on the same thing happened and bought it in greece. and aristotle pointed out that already there was a misinterpretation of what was happening in grades, but many counselors oceans claim the democracies. but they were really all gardens, and aristotle explained that democracies and the above in the oligarchy as well. so you'd be able make the make money and then yeah, and they are in great names. we make money by hurting other people by being creditors. and they make themselves, and they want to run a scenario, soccer se,

uh and uh, that tends to ration the economy until finally, some aristocratic families decide that they, the voters and the their all end of the town of place the needs in greece and not in athens in 506 that the city kind of push democracy in and out of the, the grant. so that sounds great. democracy began in the 7th and 6th century and the tyrant that we use in the english language. what the word tyrant means is democracy. that's where democracy comes from. you might have to explain that i've cleverly, it leads have changed the definition so that we don't understand the democracy in these uh can with these constraints. actually comes from tyrants as well in the 7th and 6th century and the leading great series. you had

some mafioso, the states of a few families control the land and the minor ma'am. oh members of the family deductible. and they don't do that now just have a few families wanting everything impoverishing anyone. so they, they over through the, uh, the uh, the real tyrant. yeah. they all, we got a letter and uh they said, well, we need to have us citizens whitening into the supports. we need to get them citizenship. right. and they need the clean the site on that. yes. and the 1st thing i did cancel that out. so the, there was no more money owed uh for the wealthy uh, west end and the people, the land that that was the form, the basis of democracy that happened on top of the 1st time it happened. sparta and ethan hooks fairly late, late summer uh the common,

solemn uh in 594 b c. and so the that split found the the bears of the lamb. but he did redistribute the land and that was black. so uh to uh, uh, like, who is this just reyes and uh, there was a family. they took a century for august and the cancellation through the democracy. it's a very interesting by aristotle's time. you have the time to rewrite this in the same way that in the united states congress is trying to, uh uh, and there's a brain fart are trying to do the same thing today. the arts ended up trying to assassinate the democratic and saying, we want to put the original, faster, boucher over a solid back. we don't want the constitution to move forward for democracy. we want to move backward. they made up an artificial constitution and said,

also on the really answer was that they appreciated the client, so it was easier to pay them the other. they real, pretty good story and show that this simply wasn't, wasn't so, and either in athens or elsewhere, same thing happened out in rome. they find that there was, you know, an says through oligarchy, and just want to go back to that, just like in the united states, the frank partisan. we have to go back to the constitution that was written by slaveowners, rotate people who bear the city, and we have to go back the original and the credit consultation. and we'll call that the mock. let's say democracy for the well they all of their big is the freedom to impose slavery, the rest of society, the freedom save that, take freedom away from better than not, and the 4 people. so you're really having a real life of the whole history on the recent room and today's web. and so these

cycles move around, the data accumulates under all i got a kick power, then you get a populace leader tyrant who introduces some sort of democratic control in degrees this laid. and they have an onset to this, the, all the god. so that's assassination. often enough, can you now see why in a sense, the c, i a and other agencies all following precedent them and protecting in protecting power. they read the they, they already knew about your work and saw how the protection of the need for credit is over deaf is the rights is, is um, paramount. it is very strange that people who are lost, the people who have worked for the people who don't have to create their own wells . but in there that are willing to fight and they know and reserve it, and people to actually create the well. and the thing is the vehicle won't find for

something that is really that's all right. so it's only, it's only the roberts that you know, they, it's not the best them, little calendar roberts, i saw a thompson south road this 3 and it's a sort of a warning for why they to stop the economical reservation. and so in my back, but when you talk about that being so paramount as a, the primary mover, obviously as clause struggle presumably for history in general, you know, being a fat, dried grocery shop economists saying, you see, that's why you got a bite and said that i'm not sure what you because he meant you're going to balance the books, what comes in, what goes out, and you're not meeting data in that way. and therefore, governments should do that. the opposing, both the oligarchy model and the, and the time democrats. or there was no public that and then take what any of the

palaces and. ringback churches were credit or not the better. so it really late in the time of the crusades and the 12th and 13th century's governments began to go into the wage more. but i think with the, uh, the uh, the apples that sort of say the savings of their cities. and in times the board of symbols were nope, down their sacred statutes and make coins the bainbridge scenario, the fight. that's what happened then. grayson ross in greece when they melted down the are the sections, in other words, money on some of the people in the journal monega enrolled, where the coins was actually struck down from the decline. they're really to fight the make war again, are they? uh they ended up offering a lot of wow,

which from decided to go to the wealthy families instead of the, to the buyers and had been in the past. because the room was almost the theater by hannibal and son, around $200.00 the seats. uh and uh, they asked the rich people to uh, you know, fight to preserve their freedom by giving their jewelry and everything. and the rich people, are they the jewelry and the gold of them the why was over. uh why don't the very well think that we said, you know, really i guess that's a bit slow us for the bands and the oh the romans center. well, we've got a hold of my waiting on the award to say come, we don't have that. i only have to do land that we just conquered from the cartridge and replace the city subordinate that will give you all the land, our point b, e r. great, the british historian. so that was the fable concentration of property that really set the stage for the old 2nd century in rome. your walk,

i'm our and i like our basic great army to essentially as estimate one leader after another the price to redistribute for land. i do that the rich right to cancel the depths and of course, that ended up with the assassination of julius caesar. that ended up professor michael hudson. i'll stop use a more from the wall street veteran and author of the new book, re collaborative and took a day off to this break. the after the nazis bower in italy, states foreign policy became extremely aggressive. benito mussolini needed glorious

victory. he decided to achieve his ambitions in africa. despite the fact that formally libya had become an italian colony back in 1912. the vast territories of this country were not actually controlled by rome. the nazis decided to put an end to this. but as soon as the religious order of the senate side stood in their way, the arabs did not want to submit to foreign power and put up fierce resistance. dividers against colonialism were led by the seats of this n, a side order. omar l move star, who was nick named the lion of the desert for his incredible courage. despite the violent, bombardments and boys in gas usage, mass deportations, and the imprisonment of the local population in concentration camps. the invaders could not go with the arrow patriots for a decade. in 1931, omar l moved star was captured and sentenced a hanging at the trial that he arrow of the libyan people behaved very bravely and

rejected. pardon, pursuing a policy of genocide, italy was only able to temporarily suppress libya, 18th of the entire population, more than 100000 de boats fell victim to their. however, just a few years later, the entail you enroll, collapsed. in 1951, libya became one of the 1st countries in africa to gain independence the, the welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with the author, the new book, the collapse of antiquity. professor michael, that's you know, i, i know that you on lies supposed to have looked at grades, reeves of history and the french revolution and so on. but your book is taking it

though ad exponentially grades and level you'd be showing how our daily lives can be. so connected to minutes and histories from uh, 2000. then i know the previous book on the bronze age, i ideas about the interest rates and, and dad, i don't know whether you heard about the libel rates a scandal in london when they would have manipulating the interest rates. are we not in due time, slightly, but now the, all the gods can actually manipulate the interest rates and make the rest of the people not even understand that without what they've does that show the way nearing the end of it. it was wrong with conquering territory. it would insist that there was no rate of pay on the 3rd and but after the romans wounded, assembled some the palaces, there was no money the they would bring it down in front of it and make loans and bridges threw up. but the night and caesar charged 42 percent interest to make saw

on the site and the eastern now man, mediterranean. so you had the charge. so essentially stripping society and there was a sign of psych where the roman text, the one that goes the bullet, county the public and there's a just disorder and the class and what room looks the same kind of disorder that's odd, you could say in the united states as the worst thing on the global. so by bringing in the i am out today is the last 2 uh does that work or is there any strictly economy money and in barbara shit. so i am the great this order so you can see the barrels very clearly. and if you, the roman historians made this very clear. and this is what makes brooklyn historian history so embarrassing the modern writers who like to say, well, wrong,

but it's the origins of our democracy. well, it rama never a democracy. it was always a not like are they end up? someone tried to establish a democracy that was all state a same ship because of the things were supposed to the fact that the population of property i went dark, which is why they were over thrown. and i just before 500 pc. and there's a whole that are somehow we're getting rooms, democracy, and what we're really repeating in america and europe, our rooms, all of our 8 that is ripping all of the, the regions of the world that if they go over 1st and the early and then financially and financially take over and the more people in the account with them because of the impoverishment they've got stripping all the money out of me taking away landowners up or down. and essentially driving cities so much into

that. they no longer could maintain their roads or their infrastructure or the water work just the desired page. and given its uh, over decades of archaeological research and language research and all the rest of it to produce a work like this. they did surprise even you highway leads were able to propagandizing, inverts the truth time and time again, whether it be over uh, get cancellation, being a sin and abrahamic ideas of usury. and they're able to invert these ideas at women as well, to the detriment of the commons, and the, and the public as well. that's what makes today is the western civilization. so different from everything that went before. there's one of the uniform of

a silver and bab alone even begun to be translated peoplesoft that it couldn't possibly cancel the best. because i would have loved the money and talking society and the others don't, aren't creditors of the most productive people in the world? that's understandable to think the creditors actually take money from the economy and that because printers writing the history, uh they were the wealthy families that in the air that enough money to have a leisure to write the books. and they don't, when i would read most of the time in history or greek history of roman history, they say it couldn't have happened like this because that's not what we, we englishmen would have done if we went back in time to the ancient world. and so when just write what we think of like, what been like if our western civilization wouldn't begin? well, the reality is, the western civilization was the 1st and a live agent to actually not cancel that, that the not redistribute the land to the it was the 1st civilization to actually

what i have a strong rulers prevented on all like, are casing taking over and if they would lend money to better, then the debtors would have to work for the creditors instead of working on uh, on public infrastructure on public works and building roads and, and it gets fortifications uh and instead of up paying taxes because all of the tax money would be paid to the creditors and so by the time you got the wrong, uh there really isn't on a, uh, a taxation anymore of the romans because uh uh there was nothing to text me the poor and the welded in the one of the tax would have just like today uh and uh they result is that a just the, the, the west for minute, this taller as ation uh to take place and this impoverishment of the population that take place without any kind of support in

a religion or politics. i was saying this is wrong and up all early religion uh, near eastern religions, asian religion, even early uh, uh, greek religion instead of yeah, yeah. you have to avoid being uh, uh, selfish uh, and rich and uh, they usually, uh, when i went to school at the university of chicago in the 1950s, we'll have to read plato's republic and that sort of the philosophical work of antiquity that the west usually refer stokes, and when i re read uh the republic and writing this book, it's amazing. it begins with a soccer days saying, oh, talking to someone who left some of you know, i borrow the weapons from the wells, the guy, and now he wants me to give him. it is a sword back. but he's got to tell people he's a really is

a bad person and soccer and he said. busy is a right to repay to give something back or repay, adept the story to somebody who's going to use it, the injured society. and there's to, oh no, it's not right. and softer they said, well then isn't right, the page the well see what are these that have the money that they blend you, they're going to use this money to uh go to war and then progress you and take away your land and destroy society. is that right and uh, so uh, this obviously the uh, the message of his soccer data is getting a crow. and he said the problem is people get richer. the problem is that they get addicted to well in pre k and word for wealth eviction. and the boss love us so or that is a disease. and he said, oh, it is the only way to get rid of a, a, an oligarchy is not to let people who. busy are addicted to wells be,

are leading politicians, they wouldn't be good at only we could have own leaders that didn't, wasn't wellesley and didn't have land. them wasn't the front of their, uh and there. busy wouldn't there then i would rather there's interest, you know, unless they was trying to lead a lead a revolution. and that's really the message of the, of socrates. but by the time he and plato had these discussions, it was already too late. the creditors were already taken over, and rome was about to come in and absolutely devastated grace right after the puny wars and conquered grace. and essentially, what a oligarchy is in charge, and then even degree going darks, trying to cancel that, because otherwise they, uh, the army was running away and they had no one to find. uh and uh, so rome uh, bought the uh, phone all over the later became yugoslavia. uh that whole area,

north of greece. uh was that was taken over and just uh, devastated and reduced, uh, uh, just uh, to rubble by the middle of the 2nd century. and then uh, they were re, farmers in rome, the garage, the brothers and, uh, how can they, uh, they are, may be a citizens, a room full site for they are man, yep. they have no land of their own. they have to sleep outside. uh how long did you expect them to happen? so they only go to skilled them and uh they were just. busy decade after decade of mass murder and civil war. uh, and finally the, the, all the guards one and uh, when they killed julian caesar and ended up in empire. and that led to feudalism in the dark age basically. and yet these voices remaining all all through it. i mean there was a kind of debt cancellation for the rich after the 20 wait crisis. i give lee, i think people were eating something gold top. some people said trouble x as it hasn't relief program funds. but using really the ukraine,

there are parallels now with the us in ukraine in the united states, having that kind of debt. it does and refusing, obviously to cancel its own. yeah, it's, i mean, i'll give you the treasury bill. ahold is overseas, me, cancel the debt and the different way. i want to draw parallels in the book of the class of antiquity. i just wanted to let the documentation speak for itself and let the historians speak for themselves. but as you read the book, you'll see that the bites over death and over land ownership and taxation, and how predatory the worlds they tend to behave when they're an oligarchy you'll, you can't help but say that all of this is happening uh, in the west today and the reason that i spent years writing the 1st volume of this and we're giving them their debts all about the origins of interest bearing death

in mesopotamia, was to show that it doesn't have to be this way that society isn't been a. busy for thousands of years to deal with that in a way that didn't destroy the economy. because when that stuff took so large, that many people would be impoverished and they'd uh, lose their freedom and their land of the rulers are cancelled it this. and that prevented it all like dark aid from becoming so rich that they don't reserve the rule and still let me know, should i still have to innovation of, on a level just of finally then, i mean, going back actually to the earlier book, i mean, do you think it is weird still to think of today the people when? oh, the rosetta stone is an amazing uniform writing. and then any student who learns about it goes what, what does it actually say, gets told though it's some accounting thing. you might have different behaviors. what there is this going is and why uh, give me one told what's written on the rosetta stone. i think of the british museum that, yes, is because the people are really embarrassed to say, well, this is

a debt cancellation. there was a civil war going on and out of the egyptian rulers did exactly what the egyptian rulers of the pharaohs had been doing for it 2000 years after it in order to make that peace in order to create a feeling of citizenship. once again, you can, so all of this that have been run up during the war and you start with a clean slate with everybody in balance. and that idea of restoring balance doesn't exist today because of you are an economist and you go to the university. they say, oh, we don't need a government to write down this because the private sector will automatically reach equilibrium the spare, unnatural. well, this is just nonsense the, so this is not even in antiquity. the, any of the, all, i gotta say, well, the, just the don't regulate anything on everything is going to be natural in the,

because the market is making a so well, say is always in equilibrium. even the oligarchy, know the usury was bad. the, the internet bearing that was going to polarize society. so it was not considered polite to make loans. they would make their slaves or their friedman, or a higher of foreigners, the medics to foreign born people, to make the loans. they said, oh, i would never make loans because we know our band money lending is and we know bad it is to be in the hands of the landlord and yep, they were all absentee landlords and there uh they were having other people do the dirty work of lending of the money for them, just like uh, the bond dollars the day they have the banks through the dirty work, but the, the bank spawn builders are uh, the one percent the creditor glass provides the bike lines and thank you. well, thanks for bringing up these important subjects and that's it for the show to the

new book on the origins of death to collapse. events, equity is out. now remember, we're bringing you new episodes every saturday and monday until then. you can give it to us by law, so she'll meet you if it's not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going. undergoing tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going on. they're going to use the what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy on foundation . let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. the only personally,

i'm going to resist, i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very unclear to get a time time to sit down and talk the, it's like a huge amount of support, right? there is an issue as new leadership riley support. this is a, closes the countries as space as a threat of a military intervention of the west stuff we're going to regional block is looming on the horizon. quote, to any real negotiations must include all parties, got the message from brazil, which questions the point of ukraine. peaceful from the way in saudi arabia when of russia has been excluded. also in the program disaster on the rails as

a train pressure.