and here, well, how can your one book not only show that the continuity is wrong, this is not where it comes from. uh, western civilization that it just comes from ancient rome or ancient greece. but also that it was about that how can, how can this be overturn this idea of history in such a thing? you know, there are 2 ways. there are 2 ways of looking at the moment in greece. history. one way is to say, how hard we have done if we would have gone back to greece and rome today, and we would have made the whole world look like got the width of trying to make you frame or whatever. but like, uh, uh, like the, uh, the alternative that is very rarely done is, what did the roman historians list, right. what was happening is know what the error style and weight. oh uh and the brakes describe about what was happening. embrace and they were all in the agreement, there was one common denominator. they are,

they all emphasized of the role of that and older as well. we're rising economic way. and if you read the histories written by levy and the other all, and the story and is the century essentially a popular repulse, trying to cancel the dance and redistribute lamb good, been monopolized by creditors, a foreclosed thing. and the big thing that are, same thing happened and not in greece. i am the aristotle pointed out that's already there was a listen interpretation of what was happening in grades. but not many constitutions claim to be democracies. but they were really all gardens. and aristotle explained, but democracies and the above in the oligarchy, as well as a vehicle make up my hand. yeah. and they are in great names. we make money by hurting other people by being creditors. and they make themselves in the area of

a soccer, say, i am the ems operations the economy. until finally, some aristocratic families decided that they, the voters into their uh, uh, end of the town. i have placed the needs in greece and uh, in athens, in 506 uh the city and uh, which democracy in and out of the uh they originally brand, so best number to mattress. they began in the south and 6th century. and the tyrant that we use in the english language. what the word tyra means is democracy. that's where democracy comes from. you might have to explain that i've cleverly, it leads have changed the definition so that we don't understand the democracy in these uh can with these constraints. actually comes from tyrants. while in the 7th and 6th century, in the, uh, the leading great cities. you had some mafioso, he states of

a few families controlled the land and the minor ma'am, oh members of the family deductible patients, they don't do that. now. there's a few families wanting everything in publishing, anyone. so they, they, over through the, uh, the, uh, the real tyrant. yeah. they only got a letter and uh, they said what we need to, uh, have us citizens whitening into some parts. we need to get them citizenship. right . and they need the cleaning the site on that. yes. and the 1st thing they did cancel that out. so the, there was no more money owed. uh, for the wealthy uh class and, and the people the land that, that was, that formed the basis of democracy that happened on top of the 1st time it happened . sparta and everything was fairly late, late summer, uh, the common,

solemn uh, in 594, b. c. uh, cancel the that split fund uh the, the bears for the lamb. but he didn't redistribute the land and that was black. so uh to uh, uh, like, who is, it just raises and uh, the family took a century for august and the answer relation to the democracy. it's a very interesting by aristotle's time. you have the time to rewrite this in the same way that in the united states congress is trying to, uh uh, and there's a brain fart are trying to do the same thing today. the only arch ended up trying to assassinate the democratic and saying we want to put the original, faster boot of outside of the solid back. we don't want the constitution to move forward for democracy. we want to move backwards. they made up an artificial

constitution and said, also on the really answer was that appreciated the client, so it was easier to pay them the other, the real, pretty good story chosen. it simply wasn't, wasn't so uh, and either in athens or elsewhere, same thing happened out in rome. they find that there was, you know, enhanced those grow all in dark. and just want to go back to that, just like in the united states, the frank partisan. we have to go back to the constitution that was written by slaveowners, locate people who bear the city, and we have to go back the original anti democratic consultation. and we'll call that the mock. let's say democracy for the well they all of their big is the freedom to impose slavery on the rest of society, the freedom. so you have to take freedom away from better than not. and the 4 people, so you're really having

a real life of the whole history on your recent room and today's web. and so these cycles move around, the data accumulates under all i got a kick power, then you get a populace leader tyrant who introduces some sort of democratic control in the cleans this laid. and they have an onset to this, the, all the gods that's assassination. often enough, can you now see why in a sense, the c, i a and other agencies all following precedent them in protecting and protecting power. they read the they, they already knew about your work and saw how the protection of the need for credit is over deaf is the rights is, is um, paramount. this is very strange. there are people who are lost, the people who work there, living people who don't have to create their own well. but in there that are willing to fight and they know and reserve it and people to actually create the

well and uh the oh on site or something that it really does. all right? so it's only, it's only the roberts that you know they, it's not the best and we'll tell the roberts i, that's a thompson rob desperately. and that's a sort of a warning for why today it's not a time to stop the economic or as agent. and so in my back, but when you talk about that being so paramount as a, the primary mover, obviously as clause struggle presumably for history in general, you know, being a factor i grocery shop economist thing. you see, that's why you got a bite and said, i'm not sure what you because he meant you want to balance the books, what comes in, what goes out and you're not meeting data in that way. and therefore, governments should do that to the opposing, both the oligarchy model and the,

and the time and democrat, there was no public that. and then take what they tell us. it is, and the churches were credits, not the better. so it really late in the time of the crusades and the 12th, the 13th century, governments began to go into the depths of the wage more. uh, but i think with the, uh, the uh, the boats that sort of say the savings of the series and, and times the board of symbols with nope down their sacred statutes and make coins the bainbridge scenario. but that's what happened in grayson rock in greece when there most of them are the statutes. in other words, money and some of the people in the journal monega enrolled where the clients were actually struck down from, from the events and declined. they're really to fight the unique work and are they

uh, they ended up offering a lot of wow, which wrong decided to go to the wealthy families instead of the the buyers and had been in the past because rome was almost a fetus by hannibal. and then son around $200.00 the seats. uh and uh, they asked the rich people to uh, you know, fight to preserve their freedom by giving their jewelry and everything. and the rich people are they the jewelry and the gold. and then the why was over one of the variables that we said, you know, really i guess it's the you, the bands and the oh the roman center. well, we've got a hold of my waiting on the award to say home, we don't have that. i only have to do land that we just conquered from the cartridge and replace the city subordinate. that will give you all the land, our point b, e r. great. that a british historian. so that was the table. uh awesome, tracing. the property that really set the stage for the old 2nd century in rome,

there was an hour and i like our gave the great army to essentially assassinate one leader after another, the price to redistribute for land. right. the x, the rich tried to cancel the debt then, but of course that ended up with the assassination of julius caesar. that ended up professor michael hans. and i'll stop use a more from the wall street veteran and also the new book, the collaborative, and took a day off to this break the

the, by the early 1950. can you? it became one of the centers of resistance to colonialism in africa. the british invaders infringed on the most basic rights of the local population. great britain pursued the policy of squeezing out the local population from their indigenous lands. the best airable areas were given to white farmers, dooming canyon stepfather, d, and hunger. this caused the sharp protest of the peasants and led to the emerging of the mile mile movement, which started the bike against the invaders. the rebels felt themselves canyon land and freedom army. the spiritual leader of the movement would be anti colonial, active as jo, mo, kenyatta to freedom fighters used guerrilla tactics and attacked the individual units of the british troops. the latter responded with massive air raids and

artillery effects. when suppressing the uprise of london relied on the maximum cruelty over $50000.00 kenyans were killed. about 300000 people were thrown into prisons and concentration camps. where george here in no way inferior in cruelty to the nazis, was widely practiced. the veracity of the colonial list only led the temporary success. in 1963, the british empire had to recognize the independence of gain. yeah. however, the colonial regime left behind a trail of blood and wounds that the canyon nation has not recovered from on sale. now, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity. professor michael, that's you know, i, i know that you online is supposed to have looked at grades,

reeves of history and the french of listening. so i'm, but your book is taking it though, add exponentially grades a level you'd be showing how our daily lives can be. so connected to minutes and histories from uh, 2000. then i know the previous book on the bronze age uh, ideas about the interest rates and, and debt. i don't know whether you heard about the libel rates scandal in london when they were manipulating the interest rates. are we know in due time, slightly that now the, all the gods can actually manipulate the interest rates and make the rest of the people not even understand that without what they've does that show the way nearing the end of it? a hello, open enrollment conquering territory. it would insist that there was no rate of pay and the 3rd after the romans loaded the samples of the palaces. there was no money the they would bring it down in front of it and make loans and bridges

through the night. and the cesar charged 42 percent interest and make the loans. uh the uh, cypress. uh and uh you said in the mediterranean. so you had already um, essentially stripping society and there was a sign of saying where the roman tax, but like there goes the bulloch county, the public and there's a just disorder and i plan some what room looks the same kind of disorder that pod you could say the united states was forcing on the global style by bringing in the i am out of the days of like the last 2 uh does that work. so is there any strictly economy in my and in barbara shift? so i and the rate this order. so you can see the barrels very clearly and if you the, the room and historians made this very clear. and this is what makes roman history

in this rate. so embarrassing and modern writers who like to say, well, wrong, but it's the origins of our democracy. well, it wrong was never a democracy. it was always like our end of someone trying to establish a democracy. that was all state a same ship because the things were supposed to look back to the population, a property on the dark, which is why they were over thrown in uh like, uh, just uh, before 500 pc. and uh, there's a whole lot somehow were getting rooms democracy, but we're really repeating in america. and europe are wrong, solid are 8 that is dripping all of the the regions of the world that if they go over 1st militarily and then financially and financially take over and ended up doing more people than the conquest. because of the impoverishment they've got stripping all the money on out of me taking away landowners up or down and

essentially driving city so much into that. they no longer could maintain their roads or their infrastructure or the water work. busy just not all desired page and given is uh, over decades of archaeological research and language research and all the rest of it to produce a work like this. they did surprise even you how we leads, were able to propagandizing, inverts the truth time and time again, whether it be over dead cancellation, being a sin and abrahamic ideas of usury. and they are able to invert these ideas at women as well, to the detriment of the commons, and the, and the public as well. that's what makes today is the western civilization. so different from everything that went before there's uh, one of the, uh,

cuneiform of silver and bab alone and begun to be translated peoplesoft that it couldn't possibly cancel the deaths because it wouldn't let the money. and how can society and the others don't, aren't creditors of the most productive people in the world? as i'm thinking about the effect, the creditors actually take money from the economy. and that because printers writing the history, uh, they were the wealthy families that in the air that enough money to have the leisure to write the books. and they don't, when i would read most of the time in history or greek history, a roman history, they say it couldn't have happened like this because that's not what we, we englishmen would have done if we went back in time to the engine world. and so when just write what we think like what then like if our western civilization wouldn't begin? well, the reality is the western civilization was the 1st, the vision to actually not cancel that,

that the not redistribute the land to it was the 1st of all, evasion to actually what i have a strong rulers who prevented all like our casing taking over. and if they would lend money to better than the debtors would have to work for the creditors instead of working on, on public infrastructure on public works and building roads and, and fortifications. and instead of paying taxes, because all of the tax money would be paid to the creditors. and so by the time you got the wrong, uh, there really isn't any uh, tax ation any more of the romans. because uh uh there was nothing to text me the poor and the well, they didn't want to be tax sort of just like today. uh and they result is that it just stops the list for minutes. this torres ation uh to take place. and this impoverishment of the population that take place without any kind of support in

a religion or politics. i was saying this is wrong in the oh, early religion uh, near eastern religions, asian religion. even early uh, uh, greek religion inside of yeah. yeah. you have to avoid being uh, uh, selfish uh and rich and uh they usually when i went to school. ready at the university of chicago in the 1950s, we'll have to read plato's republic and that sort of the philosophical work of antiquity that the west usually refers to end up when i re read uh, the republic and writing this book. it's amazing. it begins with a doctor to you saying, oh, talking to someone who have some of you know, i borrow the weapons from the wells, the guy, and now he wants me to give him it is a sword back. but he's got to tell people he's a really is

a bad person and soccer and he said. busy is a right to repay, to give something back or repay adept of a story to somebody who's going to use it to injure society. and there's to, oh no, it's not right? and socrates said, well and isn't right, the page the well see what are these that have the money that they blend you, they're going to use this money to uh go to war and then publish you and take away your land and destroy society. is that right and uh, so uh, this obviously the uh, the message, the soccer data is getting a crow and he said the problem is people get richer. the problem is that they get evicted to well and agree can and word for wealth eviction. and the boss level, so over there is a disease and he said, oh, it is the only way to get rid of a, a, an oligarchy is not to let people who. busy are addicted to wells be,

are leading politicians, they wouldn't be good at only we could have a leader that didn't, a wasn't wells and didn't have land, them wasn't good predators. and there. busy wasn't there then the credit is interest, you know, unless they was trying to lead to lead a revolution. and that's really the message of the, of socrates. but by the time he and plato had these discussions, it was already too late. the creditors were already taken over, and rome was about to come in and absolutely devastated grace right after the funeral wars and conquered grace. and that's actually what oligarchy is in charge. and then even degree going darks tried to cancel the debts because otherwise they, uh, the army was running away and they had no one to find. uh and uh, so rome uh, bought the uh, phone all over the later became yugoslavia. uh, the apple area,

north of greece. uh was that was taken over and just uh, devastated and reduced, uh, uh, just uh, to rubble by the middle of the 2nd century. and then uh, they were re, farmers in rome, the garage brothers and uh, help in the uh, the army, the citizens, a room full sites for the army. and yet they have no land of their own. they have to sleep outside. uh how long can you expect them to happen? so they only go to skilled them and they were just. busy decade after decade of mass murder and civil war. and finally the, the oligarchs one. and when they killed julia caesar and ended up an empire. and that led to feudalism in the dark age basically. and yet these voices remaining all all through it. i mean, there was a kind of debt cancellation for the rich after the 20 wait crisis. i give lee, i think people were eating something gold top. some people said trouble access. it

hasn't relief. program funds. but using really the ukraine. there are parallels now with the u. s. and ukraine in the united states having that kind of debt. it does and refusing, obviously to cancel its own. yeah, it's, i mean, i'll give you the treasury bill hold is overseas. me. cancel the debt and the different way as well. i didn't want to draw barrels in the book of the class of antiquity. i just wanted to. ready let the documentation speak for itself and let the historians be for themselves. but as you read the book, you'll see that the bites over death and over land ownership and taxation, and how predatory the roles they tend to behave when they're in oligarchy you'll, you can't help but say that all of this is happening in the west today. and the reason that i spend years writing the 1st volume of this and we're giving them their debts all about the origins of interest bearing death in mesopotamia,

was to show that it doesn't have to be this way that societies have been a. busy for thousands of years to deal with that in a way that didn't destroy the economy. because when that stuff took so large that many people would be unpublished and they'd lose their freedom and their land. the rulers are cancelled in this, and that prevented like the arcade from becoming so rich is 8 over 0, the rule and still let me know, should i still have to innovation of, on a level just of finally then, i mean, going back actually to the earlier book, i mean, do you think it is weird still to think of today the people when? oh, the rosetta stone is an amazing q and a form writing. and then any student who learns about it goes what, what does it actually say gets cold though it's summer? counting thing, you may have to provide just what there is this done is and why uh, give me one told what's written on the rosetta stone. i think it's a british museum that yes, is because it is that people are re embarrassed to say,

well, this is a debt cancellation. there was a civil war going on and out of the egyptian rulers did exactly what the egyptian rulers of the pharaohs had been doing for it 2000 years after it in order to make the peace in order to create a feeling of citizenship. once again, you cancel all the bits that have been run up during the war, and you start with a clean slate with everybody in balance. and that idea of restoring balance doesn't exist today because of you are an economist and you go to a university. they say, oh, we don't need a government to write down this because the private sector will automatically reach equilibrium. that is fair in natural. well, this is just nonsense. so this is not even in antiquity. did any of the, all, i gotta say, well, the, just the don't regulate anything. everything is going to be natural in the, the,

because the market is making a so well, say, is always in equilibrium or even the oligarchy. no, the usury was bad, the interfering that was going to polarize society. so it was not considered polite to make loans. they would make their slaves or their friedman, or a higher of foreigners, the medics to foreign born people to make the loans. they said, oh, i would never make loans because we know our band money lending is, i mean, no bad. it used to be an adage that the landlord and yep, they were all absentee landlords and there uh they were having other people do the dirty work of lending of the money. portland, just like uh, the bonded dollars the day they have the banks through the dirty work, but the other bank spawn builders are uh, the one percent the creditor glass provides the bike lines and thank you. well, thanks for bringing up these important subjects and that's it. for the show to the

new book on the origins of death, the collapse events, equity is out. now remember, we're bringing you new episodes every saturday and monday until then. you can give it to us by the social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going on. they're going to be on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going on. you're going to use the,

the 1st time in history and meantime country's culture has been cancelled. the very modern weapons cancel a culture. they need to ask one of the associated miles to the truck. it just means setting the money to put the clue the phrase. now, particularly the refers to cancelling russian culture. and yet the worst it could be able to see what was the zip code, where you might have folks to pittsville renewal. that is charlotte, phil is that the most of the subject, shalanda, m. d, the moines, blood rushes created the pos 1500 years. there's no question actually condemned, reviled and reject it to sit in line and use that to put somebody at the middle of panel. there's a lot, i don't know because i don't know, she does. okay,

so the little some of the list, joining total comes up nation grows daily and now includes just ask you to to go skate and assess the coverage that i need to. yeah, of course to left, but yeah, she thinks that would be the w w. w to that the, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on a fence. very dramatic. the only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk

the or the it's a numerous crowd right there. as nice as a new leadership. riley's support is, is it closes the countries as space that's, that's the threat of a military intervention from a west african regional blog seems to lose them on the horizon. the quote, any real negotiations must include old policies. that's the message from brazil, which question the point of ukraine peaceful and saudi arabia when russia has been excluded. also in the program, a disaster on the rails to try and crushing pockets done kills at least does he get an interest more than a 100? and we understand some passengers with trap in the records for.