will be back at the top with more international news, the the, [000:00:00;00] the mass general fancy and welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world for new buying the u. a. e. as the usa declines and its proxy war rages in europe, most of the world looks when you future in a multi polar world,

but such turning points of repeated through millennia. one of the greatest living futurist historians known for accurate, the predicting the 20 o 8 west in economic crisis. and it was advise governments is progressive, michael hudson, the wall street veteran and gold suddenly on trotsky, author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity, the 2nd, the latest of all him in his trilogy, on the origins of death, joins me now from new york city. thank you so much. i say i've got to ask uh whether uh it was just co incidental. um, the volume 2 of the trilogy above the collapse of empires through unsustainable death comes out this. yeah. given that everyone in the global south is talking about the collapse of the united states and certainly the collapse of the dollar as well. not only the united states as the whole of western civilization that is based on the oligarchy. and people don't realize uh how bruce and

rome made right. ringback detour away from everything that advantage marries in asia and the rest of the world before and the, the, the car was they get rid of any kind of government checks on their own creditors on the oligarchy. and the people they come in when boards and essentially foreclosing on the land and expropriating, the population ending alpha, the, populating the land, the losing, their, their economy, even the white house and the buildings. the congress built on the idea of classical antiquity and trying to imitate the style to show that continuity of style. how is it that over thousands of years and i don't know whether you expect just your book. i mean, some people who have have have jeffries on quite as being the lots of people that have been talking about this, but no one so concisely talking about debt arguably is the major elements here.

well, how can your one book not only show that the continuity is wrong, this is not where it comes from. uh, western civilization that it just comes from ancient rome or ancient greece, but also that it was about death. how can, how can this me overturn this idea of history in such a thing? you know, there are 2 ways. there are 2 ways of looking at the moment and research. great. one way is to say, how would we have done if we would have gone back to greece and rome today? and we would have made the old world look like got the width of the front and they ukraine or whatever. but like, uh, uh, lighting, but uh, the alternative is very rarely done. and what did the roman historians was right? what was happening is know what the error style, plato and the brakes describe about what was happening in greece. and they were all in agreement. there was one common denominator, they are,

they all emphasized of the role of that and older as a fuller, arising economic like. and if you read their histories written by levy and the other room, and historians is the century up with century of popular revolts, trying to cancel the dance and redistribute the land, the band monopolized by creditors for closing. and the big thing that are, same thing happened in uh, in greece. uh and uh, aristotle pointed out that already there was a missing verification of what was happening in grades. but my house that the oceans fine, they democracies, but they were really all gardens. and aristotle explained, but democracies and the of in the all the guardians, as well to be able make the, make my hands the. yeah. and they are in great names. we make money by hurting other people by being creditors. and they make themselves, and they want to run

a jury or soccer, se, uh, and that ends through a vibration, the economy. until finally, some aristocratic families decided that they, the voters and the there are uh, end of the town of place. and he's been in greece and not in athens, in 506 of the city and uh, push democracy in and out of the audit or is it brand? so best number democracy began in the 7th and 6th century. and the tyrant that we use in the english language, what the, what the tire it means is democracy. that's what democracy comes from. you might have to explain that i've cleverly, it leads have changed the definition so that we don't understand the democracy in these uh can with these constraints. actually comes from tyrants as well. in the 7th and 6th century and the leading great series. you had

the mafioso states of a few families control the land and the minor ma'am. oh members of the family deductible. and they don't do that now just have a few families wanting everything in publishing, anyone. so they, they, over through the, uh, the, uh, the real tiring. yeah. they all, we got a letter and they said, well, we need to have us citizens whitening into the supports. we need to get them citizenship. right. and they need the clean the site on that. yeah. and the 1st thing they did and pull that up so that there was no more money owed. uh for the wealthy. uh, last and, and the people, the land that, that was, that formed the basis of democracy that happened on top of the 1st time it happened

. sparta and this is seth and looks fairly late, late summer, uh, the common, solemn uh, in 594, b. c. uh, cancel the that split fund uh the, the bears for the lamb. but he didn't redistribute the land and that was black. so uh to uh, uh, like, who is this just raises and uh, there was a family. they took a century for august and the answer relation to the democracy. it's a very interesting by aristotle's time. you have the time to rewrite this in the same way that in the united states congress is trying to, uh uh, and as a brain fart are trying to do the same thing today. the arts ended up trying to assassinate the democratic and saying, we want to put the original, faster boot over some of the solid back. we don't want the constitution to move

forward for democracy. we want to move backward. they made up an artificial constitution and said, also on the really answer was that they appreciated the client so it was easier to pay them the other. they real pretty good story and show that there simply wasn't, wasn't so uh, in either in athens or elsewhere. same thing happened out in rome. they find that they were, you know, an says through all the guardians, just want to go back to that, just like in the united states, the brain partisan. we have to go back to the constitution that was written by slaveowners. locate people who bear democracy and we have to go back to the original anti democratic consultation and we'll call that democracy democracy for the well they all of their big is the freedom to impose slavery on the rest of society. the freedom save that takes freedom away from better than not, and the more people, so you're really having

a real life of the whole history on the recent room and the days west. and so these cycles move around, the data accumulates under all i got a kick power, then you get a populace leader tyrant who introduces some sort of democratic, controlling degrees this late. and they have an onset to this, the oligarchs that's assassination. often enough, can you now see why a, in a sense, the c, i a and other agencies all following precedent them in protecting and protecting power. they read the they, they already knew about your work and saw how the protection of the need for credit is over deaf is the rights is, is um, paramount. it is very strange that people who are lost, the people who work are the people who don't have to create their own wells. but in there that are willing to fight and they know and reserve it,

and people to actually create the well. and the thing is the vehicle won't fight or something that is really that's all right. so it's only, it's only the roberts that you know they, it's not the best. and well elder roberts, i saw a top in south road desperately. and that's a sort of a warning for wind today. it's not a time to stop the economic or the agent. and so in my back. but when you talk about that being so paramount as we the primary mover, obviously as clause struggle, presumably for history in general, you know, being a factor i grocery shop economists saying, you see, that's why you got a bite and said, i'm not sure what you because he meant you want to balance the books, what comes in, what goes out, and you're not meeting data in that way. and therefore, governments should do that to the opposing, both the oligarchy model and the,

and the time democrats. there was no public that. and then take what they tell us. it is and the churches were credits, not better. so it really late in the time of the crusades and the 12th and 13th centuries, the governments began to go into the depths of the wage more. uh, but i think with the, uh, the uh, the people that sort of say the savings of their cities in, in times the board of symbols were nope, down their sacred statutes and make coins the bainbridge scenario. but that's what happened in greece involved in greece when they melted down. the are the sections, in other words, when a on some of the people in the journal monega enrolled, where the coins was actually struck down from, from the decline. they're really to fight the unique work and are they uh, they ended up offering a lot of wow,

which wrong decided to go to the wealthy families instead of the, the buyers and had been in the past because uh, almost almost the theater by hannibal and then son around $200.00 the seats. uh and uh they asked the rich people to, uh, you know, fight to preserve their freedom by giving their jewelry and everything. and the rich people are they the jewelry and the gold of them. the why was over one of the variables that we said, you know, really again, it's the end of the roman center where we spent a hold of my fighting on the war to say home. we don't have that. i only have to do land, but we just conquered from the cartridge and replace the city subordinate that will give you all the land are pointing the great the british historian. so that was the fable concentration of property that really set the stage for the old 2nd century in rome. your walk,

i'm our and i like our gave the great army to essentially assassinate one leader after another that price to redistribute for land right. do x, the rich right to cancel the sun, but of course that ended up with the assassination of julius caesar. that ended up professor michael hans and i'll stop use a more from the wall street veteran and also the new book, the collaborative and took

a day off to this break. the, the west liberal leads continued to be afflicted by trucked arrangements, and from the very spot of truck returning to the white house as induced the sense of panic. can you think of a better example of stockholm syndrome the the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity. professor michael, that's you know, i, i know that you online is supposed to have looked at grades, reeves of history and the french revolution and so on. but your book is taking it

though ad exponentially grades and level you'd be showing how our daily lives can be. so connected to minutes and histories from uh, 2000. then i know the previous book on the bronze age, i ideas about the interest rates and, and dad, i don't know whether you heard about the libel rates scandal in london when they were manipulating the interest rates. are we know and new times slightly. that now the, all the gods can actually manipulate the interest rates and make the rest of the people not even understand that went out what they did that sure, the way nearing the end of it as well in rome with conquering territory it would insist the rate of pay and the 3rd, after all the romans looted assembled some the palaces. there was no money the they would bring it down in front of it and make laws and bridges through the night. and the caesar charged 42 percent interest and make loans of cyprus

and the eastern man, man, man. right? so you add the charge. so essentially stripping society and there was a sign of a site where the roman exploits there goes the bullet, county the polygons, uh theres uh just this order and the glass and what room on one side of the same kind of this or that part. you could say the united states as the worst thing on the global. so by bringing in the i am out today is the last 2 uh does that work. so is there any strictly economy my end in barbara shit. so i am the rates as ordered. so you can see the thermo very clearly, and if you, the enrollment historians made this very clear. and this is what makes brooklyn historian district, so embarrassing the modern writers who like to say, well,

wrong, it's the origins of our democracy. well, it wrong was never a democracy, it was always and not like, are they end up someone tried to establish a democracy that was all seeking things shipped because of the things were supposed to the fact that the population i probably, i went dark, which is why they were over thrown, and i just before $500.00 pc and there's a whole that are somehow were repeating rooms, democracy and what we're really repeating in america and europe are wrong, is all about 8 that is dripping all of the the regions of the world that they go over 1st militarily and then financially and financially take over and ended up doing more people in the northwest because of the impoverishment they've got stripping all the money out of me taking away landowners up or down and essentially

driving cities so so much into that they no longer could maintain their roads or their infrastructure or the waterworks just the, the desired page and given is over decades of archaeological research and language research and all the rest of it to produce a work like this. they did surprise even you highway leads were able to propagandizing, inverts the truth time and time again, whether it be over dead cancellation, being a sin and abrahamic ideas of usury. and they are able to invert these ideas at women as well, to the detriment of the commons, and the, and the public as well. that's what makes today is the western civilization. so different from everything that went before theres uh when uh the uh, cuneiform of sewer and bab alone and begun to be translated peoplesoft that it

couldn't possibly cancel this because it wouldn't let the money and talk in society and the others don't, aren't creditors of the most productive people in the world, as i'm thinking about the fact that creditors actually take money from the economy . and that because printers writing the history, uh, they were the wealthy families that in the air that enough money to have the leisure to write the books. and they don't, when i would read most of the time in history or greek history, a roman history, they say it couldn't have happened like this because that's not what we, we englishmen would have done if we went back in time to the engine world. and so when just write what we think of like, what been like if our western civilization wouldn't begin? well, the reality is the western civilization was the 1st of the vision to actually not cancel that, that the not redistribute the land to it was the 1st level of ation to actually

what i have strong rulers prevented on all like are casing taking over. and if they would lend money to debtors, then the debtors would have to work for the creditors instead of working on, on public infrastructure on public works and building roads and, and it gets fortifications, uh and instead of up paying taxes, because all of the tax money would be paid to the creditors and so by the time you got the wrong, uh there really isn't on a, uh, a taxation anymore of the romans because uh, uh there was nothing to text the poor and the well, they didn't want to be tax sort of just like today, uh and they result is that it just stops the list for a minute. it's this toller as ation uh to take place. and this impoverishment of the population that take place without any kind of support in a religion or politics. i was saying this is wrong in the oh,

early religion near eastern religion, asian religion, even early uh, greek religion instead of yeah, yeah. you have to avoid being a selfish and rich and they usually when i went to school. ready at the university of chicago in the 1950s, we'll have to read plato's republic, and that's sort of the philosophical work of antiquity that the west usually refers to end up when i re read uh, the republic and writing this book. it's amazing. it begins with a doctor to you saying, oh, talking to someone who acts and you know, i borrowed a weapons from the guy and now he wants me to give him it is a sword back. but he's got to tell people he's a really is a bad person and soccer and he said. busy is a right to repay, to give something back or repay, adept the story,

to somebody who's going to use it to injure society. and there's to, oh no, it's not right? and socrates said, well then isn't right to pay the well see what are these that have the money that they blend you if they're going to use this money to uh, go to war and then publish you and take away your land and destroy society? is that right and uh, so uh, this obviously the uh, the message, the soccer data is getting a crow and he said the problem is people get richard. the problem is that they get evicted to, well then pre k and word for wealth eviction and the boss level. so, or is it is a disease? and he said, oh, it is the only way to get rid of a, a, an oligarchy is not to let people who. busy are addicted to wells be, are leading politicians, they wouldn't be going to only we could have own leaders that didn't,

wasn't wells and didn't have land, them wasn't good predators. and there. busy and then the credit is interest, you know, unless they was trying to lead to lead a revolution. and that's really the message of the, of socrates. but by the time he and plato had these discussions, it was already too late. the creditors were already taken over, and rome was about to come in and absolutely devastated grace right after the puny wars and conquered grace. and that's actually what the oligarchy is in charge. and then even the degree going darks tried to cancel the debts because otherwise they, uh, the army was running away and they had no one to find. uh and uh, so rome uh, bought the uh, phone all over the later became yugoslavia. uh that whole area, north of greece. uh was that was taken over and just uh, devastated and reduced,

uh, uh, just uh, to rubble by the middle of the 2nd century. and then uh, they were re, farmers in rome, the garage in brothers and uh, help in the uh, the army, the citizens, a room full sites for the army. and yep, they have no land of their own. they have to sleep outside. uh, how long can you expect them to happen? so they only go to skilled them and uh they were just. busy decade after decade of mass murder and civil war. uh, and finally the uh, the, all the guards, one and uh, when they killed as early as the veterans and it ended up in empire. and, uh, they went to feudalism in the dark age basically. and yet these voices remaining all all through it. i mean there was a kind of debt cancellation for the rich after the 28 crisis. i give lee, i think people were eating something gold top. some people said trouble access. it hasn't relief program funds. but using really the ukraine,

their power levels now with the u. s. and ukraine in the united states having that kind of debt, it does and refusing, obviously to cancel its own. yeah, it's, i mean, i'll give you the treasury bill. ahold is overseas, me, cancel the debt and the different way as well. i didn't want to draw parallels in the book of the class of antiquity. i just wanted to let the documentation speak for itself and let the historians speak for themselves. but as you read the book, you'll see that the bites over death and over land ownership and taxation, and how predatory the worlds they tend to behave when they're an oligarchy you'll, you can't help but say that all of this is happening uh, in the west today and the reason that i spent years writing the 1st volume of this and we're giving them their debts all about the origins of interest bearing death in mesopotamia, was the show that it doesn't have to be this way that society's been

a. busy for thousands of years to deal with that in a way that didn't destroy the economy. because when that stuff took so large that many people would be in poverty sunday the lose their freedom and their land of the rulers or cancel this and that prevented. and all like darky from becoming so rich, they all right, 0 the rule. i'm still let me know. i still have to in evasion of on a level just of finally then, i mean, i going back actually to the earlier book. i mean, do you think it is weird still to think of today the people when? oh, the rosetta stone is an amazing q and a form writing. and then any student learns about it goes what, what does it actually say? gets told though it's some accounting thing you might have to provide. this is what there is that stone is. and why, or give me one told what's written on the rosetta stone. i think of the british museum that yes, it's because the people are really embarrassed to say, well, this is a debt cancellation. there was

a civil war going on and out of the egyptian rulers did exactly what the gyptian rulers of the pharaohs had been doing for it 2000 years after it in order to make the peace in order to create a feeling of citizenship. once again, you cancel all the bits that have been run up during the war, and you start with a clean slate with everybody in balance. and that idea of restoring balance doesn't exist today because of you are an economist and you go to a university. they say, oh, we don't need a government to write down this because the private sector will automatically reach equilibrium. other this bear on the actual, well, this is just nonsense the. so this is not even in antiquity. that any of the, all, i gotta say, well, the, just the don't regulate anything. everything is going to be natural. and the, because the market is making a so well, say, is always in equilibrium. even the oligarchy,

know the usury was bad, the interfering that was going to polarize society. so it was not considered polite to make loans. they would make their slaves for their friedman or a higher of foreigners, the medics to foreign born people, to make so long as they said, oh, i would never make loans because we know our band money lending is and we know how bad it is to be in an instant, the landlord and yep, they were all absentee landlords and there uh they were having other people do the dirty work of lending of the money for them just like uh, the bottom dollars the day they have the banks through the dirty work, but uh, the bank spawn builders are uh, the one percent the creditor glass provides the bike lines and thank you. well, thanks for bringing up these important subjects and that's it for the show to the new book on the origins of death to collapse. events, equity is out. now remember,

we're bringing you new episodes every saturday and monday until then. you can give it to us by the social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going underground tv, hon dot com, to watch new and old episodes of going on. they're going to use the, the west liberal leads continued to be afflicted by truck arrangements and from the very spot of truck returning to the white house as induced the sense of panic. can you think of a better example of stockholm syndrome? the

the, the red lines of his uh, molly, i'm looking up saucers, send a delegation news. yeah. while the country is new leadership, raleigh and support is amazing. and the threats of form and the intervention from the west african weeks old. also as we're about to witness the newest, its main purpose is to surveil d, behind the enemy lines as well as the uses most of them by little field solutions to support this on the ground in the frame conflict, the russian m. o. the said so this time group held useful then for making in the boxes along the front lines and