as lisa in law told us, go to the south south watching, enjoying his letters to me. what does he do? i have sandra. it has the house guy on the bottom next, and we'll be back at the top of the out the mass general. fancy and welcome back to going underground, broke us to go around the world from new buying the u. e. as the usa declines and its proxy war rages in europe, most of the world looks when you future in a multi polar world. but such turning points have repeated through millennia, one of the greatest living features historians known for accurate, the predicting the 20 o 8, west and economic crisis. and who was advised governments is progressive. michael

hudson, the wall street veteran and gold suddenly on trotsky, author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity, the 2nd, the latest of all the him in his trilogy on the origins of death, joins me now from new york city. thank you so much. as i say, i'm going to ask uh whether uh it was just coincidental. um the volume 2 of the trilogy above the collapse of empires of food on sustainable death comes out of this. yeah. given that everyone in the global south is talking about the collapse of the united states and certainly the collapse of the dollar as well. not only the united states as the whole of western civilization that is based on our guard and people don't realize how. ready bruce and rome made a detour away from everything that advantage marries in asia and the rest of the world before and the the, the car was the get rid of any kind of government checks on uh,

on the creditors on the oligarchy. and the people they come in when boards and essentially, uh, foreclosing on the land, expropriating the population ending alpha, the, populating the land, the losing, their, their economy, even the white house and the buildings. the congress built on the idea of classical antiquity and trying to imitate the style to show that continuity of style. and how is it that over thousands of years and i don't know whether you expect just your book. i mean, some people have, have, have, have jeffrey son quad as being lots of people that have been talking about this, but no one. so concise. he talking about debt, arguably is the major elements here. well, how can your one book not only show that the continuity is wrong, this is not where it comes from. uh,

western civilization that it just comes from ancient rome or ancient greece, but also that it was about death. how can, how can this me overturn this idea of history in such a singular 2 way? there are 2 ways of looking at the moment in greece. history. one way is to say, how hard we have done it. we would have gone back to greece room today. and we would have made the whole world look like got the width of trying to make the right or whatever. but like, uh, uh, the lighting but uh, the alternative is very rarely done. and what did the roman historians was right? what was happening is know what the error style of weight. oh uh and the brakes describe about what was happening in brace. and they were all in agreement, there was one common denominator. they are, they all emphasized of the role of that and older as it were, rising economic like. and if you read the histories written by levy and the other roman historians of. ready the century, up with century, oh, popular wrinkles,

trying to cancel the dance and redistribute lamb. good ben, monopolized by creditors for closing. and the big thing, the same thing happened and not in greece. and aristotle pointed out that already there was a misinterpretation of what was happening in grades, but many counselors, oceans fine, they democracies. but they were really all adults. and aristotle explained, but democracies and the above in the oligarchy as well, to be able make the, make my hand. yeah. and they are in great names. we make money by hurting other be, by being creditors. and they make themselves, and they want to run an area with box a and the ends to bob rush, the economy. until finally some aristocratic families decided that they,

the voters and the there are, uh, end of the town of place. and he's been in greece. and not in athens, in $506.00 of the city and uh, push democracy in and out of the audit or is it brand? so best number democracy began in the 7th and 6th century. and the tyrant that we use in the english language. what, what tire it means is democracy. that's where the democracy comes from. you might have to explain that i've cleverly, it leads have changed the definition so that we don't understand the democracy in these uh can with these constraints. actually comes from tyrants as well in the 7th and search century and the leading great series. you had some mafioso, the states of a few families control the land and the minor ma'am. oh, members of the family deductible. and they don't do that now just have

a few families wanting everything, impoverishing anyone. so they, they, over through the, uh, the, uh, the real tyrant. yeah. they only got a letter and uh, they said, well, we need to, uh, have us citizens white names and for the supports we need to give them citizenship . right. and they need to have, i mean the site on that yes. and the 1st thing i did cancel that out. so the, there was no more money owed. uh, for the wealthy uh, glass and, and the people the land that was that what form the basis of democracy that happened before. for the 1st time it happened. sparta and looks fairly late, late summer, uh, the common, solemn uh, in 594, b. c. uh, pass over that split, found the motivator for the lamp,

redistribute the land and the black. so uh to uh, uh, like is it just raises and the family took a century or uh, there's no cancellation to lead to the democracy. it's a very interesting by aristotle's time. you have the time to rewrite this in the same way that in the united states congress is trying to, uh, uh, it doesn't print partner trying to do the same thing today. the only arch ended up trying to assassinate the democratic and saying we want to put the original, faster, boucher over a solid back. we don't want the constitution to move forward for democracy. we want to move backward. they made up an artificial constitution and said, also want to really answer but that they appreciate as the client so it was easier

to pay them the other. they real, pretty good story and show that there simply wasn't, wasn't so uh, in either in athens or elsewhere. same thing happened out in rome. they find that there was, you know, an says, bro, all, i just want to go back to that just like in the united states to frank partisan. we have to go back to the constitution that was written by slaveowners, rotate people who bear democracy, and that we have to go back the original and the consultation and we'll call that democracy democracy for the well, the owner is the freedom to impose slavery, the rest of society, the freedom save that, take freedom away from better than not, and the poor people. so you're really having a real life of the whole history on your recent room and today's web. and so these cycles move around, the data accumulates under all i got a kick power,

then you get a populace leader tyrant who introduces some sort of democratic control in degrees this laid. and they have an onset to this, the, all the god. so that's assassination. often enough, can you now see why a, in a sense, the c, i a and other agencies all following precedent then in protecting, in protecting power. they read the they, they already knew about your work and saw how the protection of the need for credit is over deaf is the rights is, is um, paramount. it is very strange that people who are lost, the people who work for the people who don't have to create their own wells. but in there that are willing to fight and excel and reserve it, and people who actually create the well and uh, the thing is the recall on site or something that it really does sound right. so

it's only, it's only the roberts that you know, they, it's not the best and little calendar roberts, that's up a thompson south real history. and that's a sort of a warning for why they to stop the economical relations. so when i back, but when you talk about that being so paramount as we the primary mover, obviously as clause struggle presumably for history in general, you know, being a fat, dried grocery shop economist thing. you see, that's why you got a bite and said that i'm not sure what you because he meant you're going to balance the books, what comes in, what goes out and you're not meaning data in that way. and therefore, governments should do that to the opposing, both the oligarchy model and the, and the tyrant, democrat. or there was no public that. and then take many of the palaces and the churches were creditors,

not the better. so it really late in the time of the crusades and the 12th and 13th century's governments began to go into debt. the wage more. uh, but i think with the, uh, the uh, the people said sort of say the savings of their series. and in times the board of symbols were nope, down their sacred statutes and made coins the favorites scenario, the fight. that's what happened. then grace enrolled in greece. when there, most of them are the statutes and the other were money on some of the people in the journal monega in rome, where the clients were actually struck down from the events and declined. they're really to fight the make war again. are they uh, they ended up offering a lot of wow, which from decided to go to the wealthy families instead of to the, to the buyers and had been in the past because the room was almost

a business i hannibal. and so around $200.00 the seats. uh and uh, they asked the rich people to uh, you know, fight to preserve their freedom by giving their jewelry and everything. and the rich people i gave the jewelry and the gold of them on the why was over one of the very multi family said, you know, really i guess it's a lot of the bands and the oh the roman center. well, we've got a hold of my fighting on the war to say, come, we don't have that. i only have to do land that we just conquered from the cartridge and replace the city subordinate. that will give you all the land, our point b, e, r. great that a british historian, so that was the fable awesome, facing the property that really set the stage where the old 2nd century in rome, your walk, i'm our and i like our basic great army to essentially as estimate one leader after another the price to redistribute the lamb, right, the act,

the rich right to cancel the sun but of course the, with the assassination of the. ready season that ended up professor michael hudson . i'll stop use a more from the wall street veteran and author of the new book, the collaborative and took a day off to this break. the the wesley b leads continue to be implemented by truck arrangements. then from the very spot of truck returning to the white house as induced the sense of panic. can you think of a better example of stockholm syndrome, the the welcome back to going

underground. i'm still here with the author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity. professor michael, that's you know, i, i know that you online is supposed to have looked at great sleeves of history and the french revolution and so on. but your book is taking it though ad exponentially grades a level you'd be showing, no daily lives can be so connected to minutes and histories from uh, 2000. then i know the previous book on the bronze age uh, ideas about the interest rates and, and dad, i don't know whether you heard about the libel rates scandal in london when they will have manipulating the interest rates. are we not in new time, slightly that now the, all the gods can actually manipulate the interest rates and make the rest of the people not even understand that without what they've does that show the way nearing the end of it, as well as the concrete territory it would insist that there was no rate of

pay and the 3rd after the romans loaded the temples and palaces. there was no money the they would bring it down in front of it and make loans and bridges grew up with the night. and the caesar charged 42 percent interest and makes up the site and the eastern now man, mediterranean. so you add predatory loans, essentially stripping society. and there was a sign, a site where the roman exploits there goes the bullet, county the public. and there's a just disorder, and i plan some what room on one side of the same kind of disorder that's odd, you could say in the united states before taking on the global. so by bringing in the i am out today is the last to uh does that work. so is there any script, the economy, my and, and bob or shift? so i and rate this order so you can see the barrels very clearly. and if you,

the roman historians made this very clear, and this is what makes brooklyn historian, history so embarrassing and modern writers who like to say, well, mom is the origins of our democracy. well, it rama never a democracy. it was always like, are they end up someone trying to establish a democracy? that was all state a same ship because of the things were supposed to the fact that our population a property on the dark, which is why they were overthrown and not. but just before $500.00 b, c m, but there's a whole that are somehow we're getting rooms. democracy, but we're really repeating in america. and europe are wrong, solid are 8. that is ripping all the, the regions of the world that if they go over 1st and the early and then financially and financially take over and the more people in the account

with them because of the impoverishment they've got stripping all the money on out of me taking away landowners up or down and essentially driving cities so so much into that. they no longer could maintain their roads or their infrastructure or the waterworks just the wrong desired page. and given its uh, over decades of archaeological research and language research and all the rest of it to produce a work like this, they did surprise even you highway leads were able to propagandizing, inverts the truth time and time again, whether it be over dead cancellation, being a sin and abrahamic ideas of usury, and they are able to invert these ideas at women as well to the detriment of the commons and the,

and the public as well. that's what makes today is the western civilization. so different from everything that went before, there's one of the uniform of a silver and bab alone even begun to be translated peoplesoft that it couldn't possibly can cancel the best because i would have loved the money. and how can society exist without the others? don't, aren't creditors of the most productive people in the world. as i'm thinking about the effect, the creditors actually take money from the economy. and that because printers writing the history, uh, they were the wealthy families that in the air that enough money to have a leisure to write the books. and they do when they would read most of the time in the history or greek history of roman history. they say it couldn't have happened like this because that's not what we, we englishmen would have done if we went back in time to the ancient world. and so we can just write what we think like what have been like if thought what their

civilization wouldn't begin. well, the reality is, the western civilization was the 1st civilization to actually not cancel that, that the not redistribute the land to the it was the 1st civilization to actually what i have a strong rulers who prevented all like are you taking over? and if they would lend money to better than the debtors on have to work through the creditors instead of working on uh, on public infrastructure on public works and building roads and, and it gets fortifications. uh, and instead of updating taxes, because all of the tax money would be paid to the creditors. and so by the time you got the wrong, uh there really isn't on a, uh, a taxation anymore of the romans. because uh uh there was nothing to text me the poor and the welded in the one of the tax would have just like today. uh and uh

they result is that it just stops the list for a minute. it's this taller as ation uh to take place and this impoverishment of the population that take place without any kind of support in a region or politics. i was saying this is wrong and up on early religion, near eastern religion, asian religion even early uh, the greek religion instead of yeah, yeah. you have to avoid being a selfish and rich. and they usually, when i went to school at the university of chicago in the 1950s, we'll have to read plato's republic and that sort of the philosophical work of antiquity that the west usually refer stokes. and when i re read uh the republic and writing this book, it's amazing. it begins with a soccer days saying, oh, talking to someone left,

some of you know i borrow the weapons from the guy and now he wants me to give him . it is a sword back but he's got to tell people he's a really is a bad person and soccer and he said. busy is a right to repay, to give something back or repay, adept the story to somebody who's going to use it to injure society and there's to, oh no, it's not right. and softer they said, well then isn't right, the page the well see what are these that have the money that they blend you, they're going to use this money to uh go to floor and then fiber issue and take away your land and destroy society. is that right and uh, so uh, this obviously the, the message of his soccer data is getting a cool. and he said the problem is that people get richer. the problem is that they get evicted to well and agree can and word for wealth eviction. and the boss love

us, so where there is a disease and he said, oh, it is the only way to get rid of a, a, an oligarchy is not to let people who. busy are addicted to wells be, are leading politicians, they wouldn't, they go to only, we could have own leaders that didn't a wasn't wells and didn't have land. them wasn't big brother. uh and there. busy wouldn't there then the credit is interest, you know, unless they was trying to lead a lead a revolution. and that's really the message of the, of socrates. but by the time he and plato had these discussions, it was already too late. the creditors were already taking over, and rome was about to come in and absolutely devastated grace right after the puny wars and conquered grace. and essentially, what a oligarchy is in charge, and then even degree going darks, trying to cancel that, because otherwise they,

uh, the army was running away and they had no one to find. uh and, uh, so rome, uh, bought the uh, phone all over. the literally came yugoslavia, uh that whole area north of greece was that was taken over and just uh, devastated and reduced uh, uh, just uh, to rubble by the middle of the 2nd century. and then uh, they were re, farmers in rome, the garage, the brothers and, uh, how can they, uh, they are, may be a citizens, a room full site for the army. and yet they have no land of their own. they have to sleep outside. uh, how long can you expect them to happen? so they only go to skilled them and uh they were just. busy decade after decade of mass murder and civil war. uh, and finally, the uh, the, all the guards, one and uh, when they killed julie mc veterans ended up in empire. and that led to feudalism in the dark age basically. and yet these voices remaining all all through it. i mean

there was a kind of debt cancellation for the rich after the 28 crisis. i give lee, i think people were eating something gold top. some people said trouble x as it hasn't relief program funds. but using really the ukraine, their power levels now with the us in ukraine, in the united states, having that kind of debt, it does and refusing, obviously to cancel its own. that's, i mean, i'll give you the treasury bill. ahold is overseas, me, cancel the debt and the different way as well as one to draw parallels in the book of the class of antiquity. i just wanted to let the documentation speak for itself and let the historians be for themselves. but as you read the book, you'll see that the bites over death and over land ownership and taxation, and how predatory the roles they tend to behave when they're an oligarchy you'll, you can't help but say that all of this is happening in the west today. and the

reason that i spend years writing the 1st volume of this and we're giving them their debts all about the origins of interest bearing death in mesopotamia, was the show that it doesn't have to be this way that society isn't been a. busy for thousands of years to deal with that in a way that didn't destroy the economy. because when that stuff took so large that many people would be in poverty sunday the lose their freedom and their land of the rulers are cancelled it this. and that prevented it all like dark aid from becoming so rich that they'd all right, 0 the rule and still the in house, you still at the innovation of us on a level just of finally then, i mean, i going back actually to the earlier book i mean, do you think it is weird still to think of today the people when? oh, the rosetta stone is an amazing uniform writing. and then any student learns about it goes what, what does it actually say, gets told,

though it's some accounting thing. you might have different behaviors. what there is this going is and why uh, give me one told what's written on the rosetta stone. i think it's a british museum, that, yes, is because the people are really embarrassed to say, well, this is a debt cancellation. there was a civil war going on and out of the egyptian rulers did exactly what the egyptian rulers of the pharaohs had been doing for it 2000 years after in order to make them peace in order to create a feeling of citizenship. once again, you cancel all of this that have been run up during the war and you start with a clean slate with everybody in balance. and that idea of restoring balance doesn't exist today because of you are an economist and you go to the university. they say, oh, we don't need a government to write down this because the private sector will automatically reach equilibrium. that is fair in natural. well this is just nonsense the,

so this is not even in antiquity. the, any of the, all, i gotta say, well, the just don't regulate anything. everything is going to be natural in the, because the market is making a so well, say, is always in equilibrium or even the oligarchy. no, the usury was bad. the, the internet bearing that was going to polarize society. so it was not considered polite to make loans. they would make their slaves or their friedman, or a higher of foreigners, the medics to foreign born people, to make the loans. they said, oh, i would never make loans because we know our band money lending is let me know how bad it is to be in an instant, the landlord and yep, they were all absentee landlords and there uh they were having other people do the dirty work of lending of the money for them, just like uh, the bond dollars the day they have the banks through the dirty work, but the other bank spawn builders are uh the one percent the credit or flash

progressive. i go ahead to thank you. well, thanks for bringing up these important subjects and that's it for the show to the new book on the origins of death to collapse. events, equity is out. now remember, we're bringing you new episodes every saturday and monday until then. you can give it to us by the social media if it's not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going. undergoing tv on normal dot com to watch new and old episodes of going on. you're going to use the the

total is the aggressive today i'm authorized, is additional strong site. today, russian was the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing, but i think you just missed a couple seniors. just click on that billing you're seeing the most, the more in the will shift for banning all important show of russian oil and gas t propose. what we're going to do is just the fed service involved, the little joe bites in, imposing these sanctions on russia still has destroyed the american economy. so there's a boomerang, the the,

the small in the process and, and delegations in new jet awhile. the countries in new leadership rallies to pull up the threat of formative prevention from the west after leaving a blow. also, as we're about to witness that the newest, its main purpose is to surveilled the behind the enemy lines as well as going to use is mostly bathroom field solutions to support is since all of the, the prank of it, the russian m. o. the says it's sold as have developed, keeps forces on making and balances along the front lines. global wheat flashes, serge following a series of ukrainian plants.