the, the, i'm ask sooner it's nancy and welcome back to going under ground, broke us to go around the world from you buying the u. e. as the usa declines and its proxy war rages in europe, most of the world looks when you future in a multi polar world. but such turning points have repeated through millennia, one of the greatest living futurist historians known for accurate, the predicting the 20 o 8 west in economic crisis. and who was advised governments is progressive. michael hudson, the wall street veteran and gold suddenly on trotsky, author of the new book, the collapse of antiquity, the 2nd, the latest of all him in his trilogy, on the origins of death, joins me now from new york city. thank you so much. as i say, i've got to ask uh whether uh it was just coincidental. um the volume 2 of the

trilogy above the collapse of empires through unsustainable death comes out this. yeah. given that everyone in the global south is talking about the collapse of the united states and certainly the collapse of a dollar as well. not only the united states as the whole of western civilization those uh, based on all i got a uh and people don't realize how bruce and rome made i. ringback detour away from everything that advantage mary's in asia and the rest of the world before. and the d e car was they get rid of any kind of government checks on their own creditors on the oligarchy. and the people they come in when boards and essentially foreclosing on the land and expropriating, the population ending alpha, the, populating the land, the losing, their, their economy, even the white house and the buildings. the congress built on the idea of classical

antiquity and trying to imitate the style to show that continuity of style. how is it that over thousands of years and i don't know whether you expect just your book. i mean, some people who have have have jeffries on quite as being the lots of people that have been talking about this, but no one. so concise. you talking about debt arguably is the major elements here . well, how can your one book not only show that the continuity is wrong, this is not where it comes from. uh, western civilization that it just comes from ancient rome or ancient greece, but also that it was about death. how can, how can this me overturn this idea of history in such a thing? you know, there are 2 ways. there are 2 ways of looking at the moment and research. great. one way is to say, how would we have done it? we would have gone back to greece and rome today, and we would have made the whole world look like got the width is fine,

and they ukraine or whatever, but like, uh, uh, the lighting but uh, the alternative, the very rarely done is what did the roman historians was right, what was happening is know what the aristotle, plato and the brakes describe about what was happening in brace. and they were all in agreement. there was one common denominator. they are, they all emphasized of the role of that and older as a fuller, arising economic like. and if you read the histories written by levy and the other all in the story and is the century up with century of popular revolts, trying to cancel the dance and redistribute the land, the ben monopolized by creditors for closing. and the big thing on the same thing happened and bought it in greece. and aristotle pointed out that already there was

a missing compensation of what was happening in brains, but many accounts that the oceans find the democracies, but they were really all gardens. and aristotle explain but democracies and so of all of in the all the guardians. yeah. as a wealthy people make up my hands then yeah, and they are in great names. we make money by hurting other be by being creditors. and they make themselves into a running area, or soccer, se, uh and uh, that tends to bob rush the economy. until finally some aristocratic families decided to take the borders into their uh, uh, end of the town of place. and he's been in greece and not in athens, in 506 of the city and of course democracy in and out of the audit or is it brand? so that sounds great. democracy began in the 7th and 6th century. and the tyrant

that we use in the english language. what the word tyra means is democracy. that's where democracy comes from. you might have to explain that i've cleverly, it leads have changed the definition so that we don't understand the democracy in these uh can with these constraints. actually comes from tyrants as well in the setup and search century and the leading great series. you had some mafioso, he states of a few families control the land and the minor ma'am. oh members of the family deductible. and they don't do that now just have a few families wanting everything, impoverishing any work. so they, they, over through the, uh, the, uh, the real tyrant. yeah. they all, we got a, uh and uh they said what we need to, uh, have us citizens whitening into some parts. we need to give them citizenship. right

. and they need to clean the site on that. yeah. so the 1st thing they did, apple, the that, oh so the, there was no more money owed. uh for the wealthy. uh, last and, and the people, the land and that was the form, the basis of democracy that happened for the 1st time it happened. sparta and stephens was fairly late, late summer, uh, as the common, solemn uh, in 594, b. c. uh tassel the that split fund. uh the the bears for the lab, but he didn't redistribute the land and that was black. so uh to uh, uh, like who is it just raises and the family center the century for august and the answer relation to the democracy. it's a very interesting by aristotle's time. you have the time to rewrite this in the

same way that in the united states congress is trying to, uh, uh, and the frame border trying to do the same thing today. the only arch ended up trying to assassinate the democratic and saying, we want to put the original, faster, boucher o box of asylum back. you don't want the constitution to move forward for democracy . we want to move backward. they made up an artificial constitution and said, also on the really answer was that they appreciated the client, so it was easier to pay them the other, the real, pretty good story chosen. it simply wasn't, wasn't so uh, and either in athens or elsewhere, same thing happened out in rome. they find that there was, you know, and, and says grow all in dark. and you want to go back to that just like in the united states to frank partisan, we have to go back to the constitution that was written by slaveowners people who

bear democracy and that we have to go back to the original anti democratic consultation. and we'll call that democracy democracy for the well, the owner is the freedom to impose slavery and the rest of society, the freedom to save a freedom away from better than not. and the more people, so you're really having a real life of the whole history on the recent room and the days west. and so these cycles move around, the data accumulates under all i got a kick power, then you get a populace leader tyrant who introduces some sort of democratic control in degrees this late. and they have an onset to this. the oligarchs that's assassination. often enough, can you now see why in a sense, the c, i a and other agencies all following precedent then in protecting in protecting

power. they read the they, they already knew about your work and saw how the protection of the need for credit is over deaf as the rights is, is um, paramount. it is very strange that people who are lost, the people who work are the people who don't have to create their own well. but in there that are willing to fight and they know and reserve it, and people to actually create the well. and the thing is the o mode find for something that it really does. all right, so it's only, it's only the roberts that feel like it's not the best. and will elder roberts, i saw a thompson south rob desperately. and that's a sort of a warning for a wife today. it's not a time to stop the economic for evasion. and so in my back, but when you talk about that being so paramount as a, the primary mover,

obviously as class struggle presumably for history in general, you know, being a fat, dried grocery shop economists thing you see, that's why you got a bite and said, i'm not sure what you because he meant you want to balance the books, what comes in, what goes out, and you're not meeting data in that way. and therefore, governments should do that. the opposing, both the oligarchy model and the, and the tyrant, democrats. there was no public that and then take winning. the palaces and the churches were creditors. uh, not the better. so it really late in the time of the crusade. somebody at $12.13 centuries, the governments began to go into the depths of the wage more. uh, but i think with the, uh, the uh, the boats that sort of say uh, the savings of, uh, uh, the series and, and times a board of symbols with, nope, down there. uh,

sacred statutes and uh, make coins the bainbridge scenario inside the pipe. that's what happened in recent ross embrace when there most of them are the statutes. in other words, money on some of the people in the journal monega enrolled, where the coins were actually brought down from, from the events and defined there really to fight the unique work. and are they uh, they ended up offering a lot of wow, which room decided to go to the wealthy family instead of the, the buyers and had been in the past because the room was almost a hannibal and around $200.00 the seats. uh and uh, they asked the rich people to uh, you know, fight to preserve their freedom by giving their jewelry and everything. and the rich people i paid for the jewelry and the gold. and then on the why was over one of the variables that we said, you know,

really i guess it's the last few of the bands and the uh, the roman center. well, we've got a hold of my waiting on the award to say home, we don't have that. i only have to do land that we just conquered from the cartridge and replace the studies and subordinate that will give you all the land are pointing. the great british historian, so that was the fable awesome, facing the property that really set the stage where the old 2nd century in rome, your walk, i'm our and i like our gave the great army to essentially us estimate one leader after another the price to redistribute for land, right, the x, the rich tried to cancel the debt then, but of course, that ended up with the assassination of julius caesar. that ended up professor michael hampton. i'll stop use a more from the wall street veteran and all through the new book, the collaborative and took a day off to this break. the

the west liberal leads continued to be afflicted by trout arrangements, the very spot of trouble returning to the white house as induced the sense of panic . can you think of a better example of stockholm syndrome, the more expensive. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please. as you have the state department, the c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead,

change and whatever you do. don't want my shell stay main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the author, the new book, the collapse of antiquity. professor michael, that's you know, i, i know that you online is supposed to have looked at grades, reeves of history and the french revolution and so on. but your book is taking it though, add exponentially grades and level you'd be showing how our daily lives can be. so connected to minutes and histories from 2000. then i know the previous book on the bronze age, i ideas about the interest rates and, and dad, i don't know whether you heard about the libel rates scandal in london when they

will have manipulating the interest rates. are we not in new times slightly, but now the, all the gods can actually manipulate the interest rates and make the rest of the people not even understand that without what they've does that show the way nearing the end of it, the world and roman conquering territory it would insist the rate of pay and the 3rd, after all the romans looted assembled some the palaces. there was no money the they would bring it down in front of it and make loans and bridges through the night. and caesar charged 42 percent interest and make up on the site and the eastern man, man, man 3. so you add the charge. so essentially stripping society and there was a sign of saying where the roman tax, but like there goes the bullet, county public and there's

a just disorder and the class and what room on one side of the same kind of disorder. that's odd. you could say in the united states, reporting on the global style by bringing in the i am out today is like last to uh does that work. so is there any script the economy, my and in barbara shit. so i and great this order. so you can see the barrels very clearly and if you, the roman historians made this very clear. and this is what makes roman historian history. so embarrassing and modern writers who like to say, well, wrong, but it's the origins of our democracy. well, it wrong was never a democracy, it was always a not like are they end up someone trying to establish it, but not to say that was all state a same ship because of the things were supposed to the fact that the population a property on the dark, which is why they were overthrown and not,

but just before 500 pc. and there's a whole that are somehow were repeating rooms, democracy, and what we're really repeating in america and europe are wrong, is all about 8. that is ripping all of the, the regions of the world that they go over 1st, militarily and then financially and financially take over it. and the more people in the northwest, because of the impoverishment they've got stripping all the money out of me, taking away landowners up or down. and essentially driving cities so so much into that. they no longer could maintain their roads or their infrastructure or the waterworks just not the desired page. and given is uh over decades of archaeological research and language research and all the rest of it to produce a work like this. they did surprise even you highway leads were able to

propagandizing, inverts the truth time and time again, whether it be over dead cancellation, being a sin and abrahamic ideas of usury. and they're able to invert these ideas at women as well, to the detriment of the commons, and the, and the public as well. that's what makes today is the western civilization. so different from everything that went before there's a, one of the, uh, cuneiform of silver. and bab alone and begun to be translated peoplesoft that they couldn't possibly cancel this because i would have loved the money and talked in society and the others don't, aren't creditors of the most productive people in the world. as i'm thinking about the effect, the creditors actually take money from the economy and that because printers writing the history,

uh they were the wealthy families that in the air that enough money to have the leisure to write the books. and they don't, when i would read most of the time in history or greek history of roman history, they say it couldn't have happened like this because that's not what we, we englishmen would have done if we went back in time to the engine world. and so we just right, but we think life was been like if our western civilization wouldn't begin. well, the reality is, the western civilization was that 1st of all of asians to actually not cancel that, that the not redistribute the land to it was the 1st level of ation to actually what i have strong rulers prevented on all like are casing taking over and if they would lend money to better is then the debtors would have to work for the creditors instead of working on uh, on public infrastructure on public works and building roads and,

and it gets fortifications uh and instead of up paying taxes because all of the tax money would be paid to the creditors and so by the time you got the wrong, uh there really isn't on a, uh, a taxation anymore of the romans, because uh, uh there was nothing to text me the poor and the well, they didn't want to be tax sort of just like today uh and they result is that it just stops the list for a minute. it's this taller as ation uh to take place. and this impoverishment of the population that take place without any kind of support in a religion or politics. i was saying this is wrong in the oh, early religion near eastern religion, asian religion, even early uh, greek religion instead of yeah, yeah. you have to avoid being a selfish and rich and they usually when i went to school. ready at the

university of chicago in the 1950s, we'll have to read plato's republic and that sort of the philosophical work of antiquity that the west usually refers to end up when i re read uh, the republic and writing this book. it's amazing. it begins with a doctor day, you're saying uh, talking to someone who asks and, you know, i borrow the weapons from the wells, the guy, and now he wants me to give him his a sword back. but he's got a couple people. he's a really is a bad person and soccer and he said. busy isn't right to repay to give something back or repay, adept the story, to somebody who's going to use it to injure society and there's to, oh no, it's not right. and softer they said, well then isn't right to pay the well. see what are these that have the money that they blend you, they're going to use this money to uh go to war and then progress you and take away

your land and destroy society. is that right? and uh, so uh, this obviously the uh, the message, the soccer data is getting a crow and he said the problem is people get richer. the problem is that they get addicted to well, then agree can and word for wealth eviction and the boss love us. so or is it is a disease? and he said, oh, it is the only way to get rid of a, a, an oligarchy is not to let people who. busy are addicted to wells be, are leading politicians, they wouldn't be going to only we could have own leaders that didn't, wasn't wellesley and didn't have land. them wasn't good predators. and there. busy wouldn't there then the credit is interest, you know, unless they was trying to lead to lead a revolution. and that's really the message of the, of socrates. but by the time he and plato had these discussions,

it was already too late. the creditors were already taken over, and rome was about to come in and absolutely devastated grace right after the puny wars and conquered grace. and that's actually what a oligarchy is in charge, and then even degree going darks. tried to cancel that this because otherwise they, uh, the army was running away and they had no one to find. uh and uh, so rome uh, bought the uh, phone all over. the literally came yugoslavia, uh that whole area north of greece was that was taken over and just uh, devastated and reduced uh, uh, just uh, to rubble by the middle of the 2nd century. and then uh they were re, farmers enroll in the garage in brothers and uh, help in the uh, the army, the citizens, a room full site for the army. and yep, they have no land of their own. they have to sleep outside. oh,

how long can you expect them to happen? so they only go to skilled them and uh they were just. busy decade after decade of mass murder and civil war. and finally the, the, all the guards one and when they killed julian caesar and ended up in empire. and that led to feudalism in the dark age basically. and yet these voices remaining all, all through it. i mean, there was a kind of debt cancellation for the rich after the 20 wait crisis. i give lee, i think people were eating something gold top. some people said trouble access. it hasn't relief. program funds. but using really the ukraine, their power levels now with the u. s. and ukraine in the united states having that kind of debt, it does and refusing, obviously to cancel its own. yeah, it's, i mean, i'll give you the treasury bill. ahold is overseas, me, cancel the debt and the different way as well. i didn't want to draw parallels in the book of the class of antiquity. i just wanted to let the documentation speak

for itself, and the historians be for themselves. but uh, as you read the book, you'll see that the bites over death and over land ownership and taxation, and how predatory the roles they tend to behave when they're an oligarchy you'll, you can't help but say that all of this is happening in the west today. and the reason that i spend years writing the 1st volume of this and we're giving them their debts all about the origins of interest bearing death in mesopotamia, was to show that it doesn't have to be this way that societies have been a. busy for thousands of years to deal with that in a way that didn't destroy the economy. because when that stuff took so large that many people would be above race, then they'd lose their freedom and their land. the rulers are cancelled in this. and that prevented like the arcade from becoming so rich is 8 over 0,

the rule and still let me know, should i still have to innovation of, on a level just of finally then, i mean, going back actually to the earlier book, i mean, do you think it is weird still to think of today the people when, oh, the rosetta stone is an amazing q and a form writing. and then any student who learns about it as well, what does it actually say, gets told though it's some accounting thing. you might have to provide just what the resistance stone is and why uh, give me one told what's written on the rosetta stone. i think it's a british museum, that, yes, it's because the people are really embarrassed to say, well, this is a debt cancellation. there was a civil war going on and out of the egyptian rulers did exactly what the gyptian rulers of the pharaohs had been doing for it 2000 years after in order to make that peace in order to create a feeling of citizenship. once again, you cancel all of this that have been run up during the war and you start with

a clean slate with everybody in balance. and that idea of restoring balance doesn't exist today because of you are an economist and you go to a university. they say, oh, we don't need a government to write down this because the private sector will automatically reach equilibrium. that is fair and natural. well, this is just nonsense. so this is not even in antiquity that, uh, any of the, all i guard say, well, the, just the don't regulate anything on everything is going to be natural in the, the, because the market is making a so well say is always in equilibrium. even the oligarchy. know the usury was bad, the interfering that was going to polarize society. so it was not considered polite to make loans. they would make their slaves or their friedman, or a higher of foreigners, the medics to foreign born people to make the loans. they said, oh,

i would never make loans because we know our band money lending is and we know how bad it is to be in and isn't the landlord. and yet they were all absentee landlords and there uh they were having other people do the dirty work of lending out the money. portland, just like uh, the bottom dollars the day they have the banks through the dirty work, but the other bank spawn builders are uh, the one percent the credit or flash progressive by god to thank you. well, thanks for bringing up these important subjects and that's it. for the show to the new book on the origins of death, the collapse events, equity is out. now remember, we're bringing you new episodes every saturday and monday until then you can give it to us by law. so she'll meet you if it's not sensitive in your country and to our channel going undergoing tv hon. they'll come to watch new and old episodes of going undergrads use the

mortgage, which is supposed to be around. so see what's printing, what was the route that was good there. so some of this will be slippers are going to see anything important to me. the last thing was these read. those can will be used to be imagine we have some more more or should we move with this? we would show new people to the, the the

i was told time after time after time there is no such thing as a diabetic diet. just whatever the standard diet is that you've been getting here, just keep giving are the most important thing is learning how to control with insulin. so when we were in the hospital, remember them saying, eat whatever you want and goes for it. and actually his 1st meal in the hospital was a breakfast burrito, cuz i like that's a, that's no cards. so we'll have to go see for that. but then he wanted to cookies. and after every i took the keys and we left the hospital with him being over 300 still my entire nursing career. this is how we've done. i knew that my patients at my job a whatever they want it. and we just gave them the sliding scale. i knew that their numbers were 2 or 300. i knew that that was the norm. that was the diabetic community for me.