the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to wells a part when i was coming of age in the early 1990 is right in the aftermath of the cold war. the biggest dream for many youngsters around the world was to get a scholarship or even a one way plane ticket to

a western country and never look back 30 years on many of those speakers off, greener grass or about a life or returning phone with a conscious desire, it's a phone call to a darn sister allows what's behind that phenomenon and how is it changing the world we live in? want to discuss that. i'm now joined by mcqueen. han pakistani public policy analyst a tv brought the costs are between is great to see you. thank you very much for your time. it's a pleasure. it's on a now unlike many post cold war immigrants whom i had just mentioned, you were actually born and raised in the foreign country were born and raised in london. you got a degree from cambridge and other one from harvard. you had a number of seemingly pharmacy and jobs including one with the your and does he have you quitted and returned back to your assessor allows. i wonder if the decision seems a bit eccentric,

to put it mildly even to your own family to well, it was actually a family decision. and this thing is that when i was growing up in london in the eighty's and ninety's and i was at school and university, it was a very different place to the u. k that we see now. i mean, recently we've seen the 1st minister of scotland has been elected, and he's a young british focus connie, we've got the mayor of london, so just fine. there's also a focused on the origin. and of course you have an indian origin prime minister in the u. k now, um, 30 years ago in the ninety's we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. and i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the sap true government. a tory

government, which was not known for its liberalism inside it spoke to low racial tensions of racism was very old. but the ending lived in those days, i'm very happy to say that the new generation so much more open minded them much more aware of the racist or discriminatory regions. the person is a much better place, i think, for minorities now than it was in the ninety's. now i think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, there is a green degree of idolize ation there. the bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later, i wonder how it was for you that, you know, cultural shock off by meeting the land. that's new. drums about yeah, so it's interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buckets. bonnie's and many asians in

general. and i do, i mean, i'm very grateful about that because i got an excellent education. i think england is an amazing country in terms of the d. n, a chest, the national health service rule, access to justice. and there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe in survey to america, a more free and balanced media. so i absolutely understand that people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays people should look to their own country 1st. because if you are educated, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know, apart from those people who are, god forbid thing the press start their lives at stake, or they're to so below the poverty line that they cannot even civil. and that's a different type of migration, but it's a middle class people who are educated. i would say if you have

a certain level of respect in your country and security and your basic needs are met. you know, the growth is always green, but when you get there, especially if you go to, let's say, the united states, you will be a 2nd or even a sub plus it isn't for many, many years. now in one of your interviews here, described the cultural stronger to your had when you went to one party and package them in here were the only one who wasn't drinking or smoking there, despite the fact that your warrens actually a born in the country. but it was almost like a well being born in the u. k. you were less westernized than many of the people who have lived impact has done their entire life. and i think this is such an interesting point because you also mentioned, you know, the british society is now being increasingly so their age and i expected sized, or i don't know indian eyes if, if i can put them that way. and i was thinking about whether one can really

understand them fully inhabit their culture, that condition their speciality consciously without having some distance from it. because i think one of the reasons why you can see the pakistan is the sides of the way you see is because you have, you know, so the benefit of several different perspectives to i agree, i think that's absolutely right. having grown up in england and then coming to focused on which was an identity. uh that was very strong to me. i was very focused on the british book. it's funny. and then coming here and realizing that i actually focus finding identities, also in change and of course of transformation. and so the identity i thought was focused on was a few decades old because that related to an identity my parents had left behind when they moved decades of yeah. and so with immigrant communities, what happens is the own country they leave behind a culture and base. the memories are stuck in that time. whereas that coats and

leaves on and transforms and modernize is so yes, i think it was very interesting for me. and the other thing i noticed was that ultimately big circle it leads in every country are fairly westernized, whether it's focused on or any other country. because i was interacting with the sort of educated one percent elite to a very well off. they were, majority of them were inevitably equate to westernize ation with modernize ation. and i think that is changing now with the, with the internet and with citizen journalism and the access to information. i think people have discovering their own history. it's allow me to screen mussman history, asian history and building into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press, which certainly filters it is not blocking it out completely. you know, i,

one of the things that i was kind of surprised, and by, that's surprising about here is, is one of your sad again. and one of your interest is that what you miss the most about britain is it's intellectual stimulation. and i'm certainly biased here. and russian, the, you can't have 5, perhaps the worst relationship ever. but when i look on british media and how predictable they are, you know, um, how home a genius the narrative is. when i look at certain reports by think town tank some you know, seem to buy as in the, the sort of the relationship with the fact how casual it is to put it my way again . and when i compare it, for example, uh with the practice dining discourses messes as it is, it strikes me as far more genuine and intellectually honest. so i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation in your you have in britain that they've kind

of got an offer in impact has done. so i think, yeah, that the nation was when i was very nice bucks fun. and i think things have improved a great deal in the past few years. inbox is done with the advent of the opening up the private media channels. the time we only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the state channels. but it wasn't as much freedom of debate. no, you're absolutely right. focused on the media and bug this funny society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issues. perhaps we don't reflect as much on our own internal issues with, with that much object to it, to your mindedness, but certainly on international issues. yes. focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss things. and i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. yes, the diplomat. some the journalist would definitely notice, but then narratives of china or even

a much more balanced fashion. i do want to discuss the broader issues. but before we go there, uh, let me ask you a specifically about uh, uh, your success as a fi per file, woman, professional woman. and you said before that it was a little bit of a challenge. because with ma'am, if i'm quoting your career plane, there is a presumption that they are competent. um, though with women at least the initial presumption is that they have a pretty phase now. and you clearly have both i one day that gives you any advantages. serious advantages and this still fairly patriarchal society like pakistan because a, you know, that i assume they're not too many women like like yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brain. so i think the box on is, is a patriarchal society. you are right, and in most feels that there is a male dominant structure. i think women are doing fantastic,

well in some areas, but really it's got to be scaled up. yes, women for my son class who are already educated, pass for an education. do very well and they have access to capital through that family well, so you know, so those people are obviously doing well. and i know i'm from a middle class family. i have access to educational opportunities in england on marriage. and i think that's where focused on is, has to be a challenge, is that marriage has been eroded to such an extent, what happened to them by favoritism, and by politicize ation of organizations, government organizations and entities and even in the private sector. so i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall rethink of the way our

society is structured because it is turning away the middle class. and it's also inhibiting women's talents. but in terms of women striving and making, you know, good stripes in society. yes, absolutely. but female pilots, fight to pilots. even people, a lady who's climb mount everest, you know. yeah. but this funny uh, women are up before front of fashion, music textiles. all sorts of architecture of all sorts of fields, but it is not wide spread throughout society and we do have some very real issues. for example, i was in a corporate entity, hearing karachi, where i live and i on for to the encounter sexual harassment in the workplace. and in fact, i have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. and i've learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today,

and that has to be rectified. well, that's the interesting you're saying, because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. i mean, taking yourself seriously not pompously, not the match, the stickly, but seriously enough to stand for it for what you believe and to develop the talents that were given to you. and as much as that seems to be a key to your own personal success, i wonder if that's also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously for what you are with all your, you know, witnesses but also yes. trying. absolutely. i mean, self belief is a trait that you cannot do without it's a prerequisite of success. if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. and the self belief is about the core value that you have. i mean,

it's about having a set to go eating principles in your life and sticking by them. and believing that that roadmap for your life is the one you're going to follow with those principles . what you don't abandon is principles. you can change root, you can change tactics, you can even sometimes change the destination for the principles of bad to carry you through. you're going to use this one prime minister focused on him or on the phone. and you know, he talked about that as well and he's a great proponent of that incredible determination. and so. ready please give the vision to a country on a national level, but also to display that in your own lifetime with his achievements. i think he's a great example of what self belief can do this, transformed you from a well false cricket to, to a well plus philanthropist to an educational list and now to a national leader. and indeed a global leader offering. we have to take

a very short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the started in 1983 session with my father on a young man, the site that dogs out to the same as a kid does when he goes out in the lake and the communities cushion for parentage with iran. real nice families and calendars for a really long time. my mom was pregnant was me still long winding. and i grew up on long line session since probably 1970 was my 1st year that i seriously pointed to the explainable biomass as near storage levels. growth rates have dropped falling when it's done in it's worse form has a leveling effect, and it has

a tendency to really just sort of strip away everything that's there. the way fisheries are changing. it's the way our country is changing. it's increasingly hard for small businesses to make it abundant. stocks are important. i mean, who wants to fish the last best? the message i would leave to you is the importance of not giving up the importance of working together. and also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean the welcome back to wells, of course, with the semester we talk about this tony public policy analyst and he brought the best time measuring before the break we started talking about the self perception of national perception, and i know that seems to returning to back to some of you've done

a lot of consulting and uh, communication work for various like a sending entities including uh, i believe, a couple of, uh, government agencies. and when our i speak to practice on, if people like to hear the practice that has an image problem, is that indeed an image problem or is it a problem? most of perception to i think is 1st, i think may be the image problem is because of the self perception problem that i think having lived here now for all of us 2 decades. i feel that focused on these are still working through the journey of developing an identity, a national identity. there is the, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media will all sorts of views and narratives have a chance to, to page and come through before. but that also has a downside in that. everything is up for debate. nothing is agreed on from the most

fundamentals. for instance, right now, the country is going through a massive political, economic, and constitutional crisis. because even, you know, well interesting is can say that they would choose not to accept the supreme court, but it's now in any other country that would be insoluble, inviolable. you couldn't say that. so here, even those basic fundamentals are still being debated and for talent, focus on the 75 years old. and i think the self identity is going to transform younger people are coming in at 65 percent of the population. that under the age of $35.00, then on yes, and those decision making seats and positions that i think you'll be able to generate greater and generation takes away. young people will come and that identity will become more solid when you're saying that 75 percent of the population now fairly young. i mean, for people of those age,

it's natural to be concerned about how they look in be in the eyes of the outside world. speaking of which we both participated in a conference recently organized by these. lemme about security dialogue family. you gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries efforts to present the national image uh to the world. and what i saw sounds very funny is that the practice on is continually trying to develop one seems sort of a upcoming potential. you had the companions like vibrant practice done the rising practice and emerging stack. as i said. there's always some, uh, this expectation of the same thing. i mean, yeah, you don't seem to be able to stick window with, with one slogan in particular, why do you think that is, i mean, both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential, but also not being able to quite let it all plan or yeah, because i think the one thing that everybody does agree on is that we haven't

reached out to him, so there's lots of potential, but it hasn't been maximized. it hasn't actually grown and bloomed yet. i think that's what we do all agree on. so various reasons. so that's why the theme is always emerging or coming up for about to come up or about to fully realize the reason they, they kind of agree on the same as again with the politic peak, fractured new governments, come in and mediately change everything that the previous government did, yeah. as far as possible, i think until we reach that level of political maturity, it's going to be very difficult. as i said, i do have a great deal of hope as the most people in boxes on the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know, as they come up and they come into these decision making positions,

they will not have the package of history and division that the older generation jobs, and that's why i'm very hopeful that. but on the other hand, i think it's not only pakistan who is going through this very difficult challenge of a essentially differentiation because we live in an era in the political era. when most countries have to think consciously, not about just their external image, but about where they stand politically, economically, home based, so forth. when they don't support what they want to or gaps for themselves, what, what they're willing to give to others. it's and it's a very, very difficult process for most countries. i interviewed people from around the world and i think everybody's pretty much going through the same process of uh, sort of a weakening of the self worth, not only on a personal level, but on, on a national level and even the international level. and i know it's a big question,

but the, your a person that was a big vision so, so i want to ask you, what do you think is taking all of us as humanity and this sort of burgeoning of potential all around the world and everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently from how you know others prefer them to be the same to hey, this is one of the great revolutions of social media. it has opened up access to information, but it is also allow people to get their point of view. so when the reliant on these global news networks, which dominated the eighty's and ninety's, where you didn't receive any alternative information or viewpoint, i think that's fantastic. and we are seeing a shift from a unipolar super power dominated well to this region, china, russia, to our key box, bonnie wrong, and the gulf states taking a key role in this feature. now, india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states,

but it has asserted its independence inside reform policy issues and decisions. for example, in 14 oil from russia. so focused on unfortunately, hasn't been able to do that because as you know, iran, hans government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence. but last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president instead about enforcing quote from russia. and i think that's a classic example of where super power has used its influence to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. and, you know, it's, it's sad that they do that because i think those days are over. now the public is much more aware of what's being done to them. you know, it's not 1953 where you can replace an elected democratic government wrong and replace it with the shop. the cars. i mean, you know, you,

for country can, you know, you, if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics, they will try that until those ways will become totally and effective. so in a way, it's a natural process. you know, it was very interesting a few years to go. i so the late tony then who is a real slow so versus politics and p on bbc world. and he was opposite john bolton, who's a us diploma. and they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing comment. he said, you know, both are in part the you k, m, the us are in decline and you've got to accept that. and you know, you've been very rude on stuff from the american from john bolton, but he was an amazingly gracious person 30, but i think he was absolutely right. those empires are in decline on throughout the street. you've seen him class decline, and others take the place and now it is the rise of asia. it's the 21st century.

and these regions will we work to trade with our neighbors. we should be able to trade with russia, you know, we should be able to trade with iran, and yet we have sanctions and it doesn't make any sense for us to be sanctioned by that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. i mean neighbors, you can change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you can change over your neighbors. now, we only have a couple of minutes left. we've talked a lot about sort of this and used potential effect to send, but i want to pay homage to your roots as well. and, you know, whenever i visit packers, and i'm always sort of uh, stricken by the legacy of your founding father. and, well, how about the lead jeanette, who i think was a man of this amazing call for it on the life of attitude toward the goal, our church cheryl gunn, and the many others. even though he is much less known around the world, i think it was a very interesting and intricate combination. of course, my pull within him, you know, western education, fascination with certain aspects of western culture, but also in

a genuine appreciation of his own voice. he was never shames of practice them. you know, he liked it a lot, this many aspects of traditional culture. and i think this brand of sort of, and lots of conservatism is coming back is making a come back around. and, well, my question is, do you still live in pakistan? are you grounded enough in who you are already without a centrally closing off or the outside influence or some of them are very beneficial but also, you know, failing enough stability in your own identity to and i think that's a fantasy question. and of course mama, the legion outside of is the founding father above his phone. and he is yes, a much under research speaker. he was an amazing costs and he was so intellectually strong he had conquered. you know, the legal well, he was a barrister from lincoln's in, in, in england, so well respected,

highly paid funding and dom on. and yet he had that ability to honor his roots and give the muslims of position via their identity, which was a separate identity. and then yeah, it comes back to what you were talking about, that self fulfillment of identity. so yes, i think we have anonymously, brilliant example, in moment religion and increasingly the younger generation is learning more about him. i'm pull existence like and ross on have brought that to the for, you know, a lot of fun in his speeches. does quote, allow my bow a great deal to put to us through the east and he talks about self determination and realizing your human potential unit flying like this. i mean the burden the uh rather than pulling on the flight. and i think that is something that focused on is the, you know, given the massive popularity that runs on has amongst youngsters, millions of people follow him. and i think he is really starting to be great people to say you can be proud yes. of western education is great. yes,

it's fantastic to have skills, but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity. because without that, you will flow to way you won't be incurred. it's identity and principles. i'm christian and i think one of the quotes about him i, i read the now in front of the books by his contemporary. he said that there's enough confidence in himself was incredible, but they didn't make him analysis. it turned into this very strong dedication to public service, to his lines and full acceptance off. not only course you was, but who's his culture, man, we're and what's his control represented. so i guess i'm saying that to wrap up, i'm to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from whatever they are. absolutely. i think you have to look into your own history. you have to have a sense of pride in your national identity and a sense of pride in your leaders. if they're giving you a vision,

then you agree with that vision. you know, the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country by. because it is so selective and so biased. and so the agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country for sure all whether your own culture or the country is that for me to have that scheduled for aj and debates, my friend has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for that time . it's been a pleasure and thank you for watching culture, sir. again, it was a part of the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're such orders at conflict with the 1st law shows. alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to trace a trust rather than to the job with

artificial intelligence. we have somebody in the team and the