the brought the costs are between is great to see you. thank you very much for your time. it's a pleasure. it's on a now unlike many post cold war immigrants who my just mentioned, you were actually born and raised in the foreign country were born and raised in london. you got a degree from cambridge and the other one from harvard. you had a number of seemingly fallacy in jobs, including one with the euro. i mean, we have to quit it and return back to your assessor allow their wondering these decision seems a bit eccentric, to put it mildly even to your own family to well, it was actually a family decision. and the thing is that when i was growing up in london in the eighty's and ninety's and i was at school and university, it was a very different place to the u. k that we see now. i mean,

recently we've seen the 1st minister of scotland has been elected, and he's a young british focus connie, we've got the mayor of london, so it is fun. there's also a focused on the origin. and of course you have an indian origin prime minister in the u. k. now, um, 30 years ago in the ninety's, we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. and i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the sat, true government, a tory government, which was not known for its liberalism inside. it spoke to a lot of racial tensions. racism was very old but ending lived in those days. i'm very happy to say that the new generation so much more open minded them much more aware of the races. so discriminatory marriage is the person as a much better place. i think for minorities now than it was in the ninety's. now i

think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, there is a green degree of idolize ation there. the bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later. i wonder how it was for you that, you know, cultural shock off by meeting the land that you drums about. yeah, so it's interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buckets, felonies and many asians in general. and i do, i mean i'm very grateful about that because i got an excellent education. i think england is an amazing country in terms of the d. n. a chest, the national health service rule access to justice. and there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe and survey to america

a more free and balanced media. so i absolutely understand the people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays people should look to their own country 1st. because if you are educated, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know, apart from those people who are god for that thing, but pressed on their lives at stake or their to so below the poverty line that they cannot even civil. and that's a different type of migration, but it's a middle class people who are educated. i would say if you have a certain level of respect in your country and security and your basic needs are met. you know, the growth is always green. but when you get there, especially if you go to, let's say, the united states, you will be a 2nd or even a thought process for many, many years. now in one of your interim years here, described the cultural stronger to your had when you went to one party and package

them in here, where the only one who wasn't drinking or smoking there despite the fact that your warren is actually a born in the country. but it was almost like a while being born in the u. k, you were less westernized than many of the people who have leave the impact of some their entire life. and i think this is such an interesting point. so you also mentioned, you know, the british society is now being increasingly so their age and i expected sized or i don't know indian eyes if, if i can put them that way. and i was thinking about whether one can really understand them fully inhabit that culture. that condition their speciality consciously, without having some distance from it. because i think one of the reasons why you can see if the pakistan is the sides of the way you see is because you have, you know, so the, the, the benefit of several different perspectives to i agree. i think that's absolutely right. having grown up in england and then coming to focused on which was an

identity that was very strongly me. i was very focused on me and british bucket study. and then coming here and realizing that i actually focused funding identities, also in change. and of course of transformation. and so the identity i thought it was focused on was a few decades old because that related to an identity my parents had left behind when they moved decades early. and so with immigrant communities, what happens is the own country. they leave behind a culture and base, the memories are stuck in that time. whereas that code to lose on and transforms and modernize is so yes, i think it was very interesting for me. and the other thing i noticed was that ultimately the so called it leads in every country are fairly westernized, whether it's focused on or any other country. because i was interacting with the

sort of educated one percent elite to a very well off. and they were, majority of them were inevitably equate to westernize ation with modernize ation. and i think that is changing now with the, with the internet and with citizen journalism and the access to information. i think people have discovering their own history. it's allow me to screen must limit history, asian history and building into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press, which certainly filters it is not blocking it out completely. you know, i, one of the things that i was kind of surprised, and by, that's surprising about here is, is one of your sad again. and one of your interest is that what you miss the most about britain is it's intellectual stimulation. and i'm certainly bias here and russian the just a house i have for some of the worst stipulations i've ever. but when i look on

british media and how predictable they are, you know, um how home a genius the narrative is. when i look at certain reports by think town tank some you know, seem to by, as in the, the sort of the relationship with the fact how casual it is to put it my way again . and when i compare it, for example, uh with the practice dining discourses messes as it is, it strikes me as far more genuine and intellectually honest. so i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation you're you have in britain that they've kind of get an offering, impact has done. so i think, yeah, that the nation was when i was very nice about son. um, and i think things have improved a great deal in the past few years. inbox is done with the advent of the opening up the private media channels. the time we only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the state channels. so there wasn't as much freedom of debate. no,

you're absolutely right. focused on the media and bug this funny society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issues. perhaps we don't reflect as much on our own internal issues with, with that much objectivity or mindedness, but certainly on international issues. yes. focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss things. and i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. yes, the diplomat some the less with definitely any notice but then narratives of china or even a much more balanced fashion. i do want to discuss the broader issues, but before we go there, uh, let me ask you a specifically about uh uh your success as a fi per file, woman, professional woman. and you said before that it was a little bit of a challenge, because with ma'am, if i'm quoting, you are correct planned, there is a presumption that they are competent. um though with women at least the initial

presumption is that they have a pretty phase now and you clearly have both i one day that gives you any advantages serious advantages. and this still fairly patriarchal society like pakistan because uh, you know, that i assume they, i know too many women like like yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brain. so i think the books on is, is a patriarchal society, you're right. and in most feels that there is a male dominant structure. i think women are doing fantastically well in some areas, but really it's got to be scaled up. yes, women from a sudden clause who are already educated pass for an education do very well and they have access to capital through the family. well, so you know, so those people are obviously doing well. and i know i'm from a middle class family. i have access to educational opportunities in england on

marriage and i think that's where focused on is has to be a challenge. is that marriage has been eroded to such an extent, why nepotism by favoritism, and by politicize ation of organizations, government organizations and entities. and even in the private sector. so i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall rethink of the way society is structured because it is turning away the middle class. and it's also inhibiting women's talents. but in terms of women striving and making, you know, goods, stripes, in society. yes, absolutely. but female pilot, spite of pilots. uh, even uh, people, a lady who's climb mount everest, you know. yeah, fuck is funny. uh, women are up before front of fashion,

music textiles. all sorts of architecture of all sorts of fields, but it is not widespread trout society and we do have some very real issues. for example, i was in a corporate entity, hearing karachi where i live. and i am full surely how to encounter sexual harassment in the workplace and insight. i have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. and i've learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today, and that has to be rectified. well, that's the interesting you're saying because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. i mean, taking yourself seriously not pompously, not the narcissistic. lean but seriously enough to stand for it for what you believe and to develop the talents that were given to you. and as much as that

seems to be a key to your own personal success i one day. and that's also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously for what you are with all your, you know, witnesses but also yes. trying. absolutely. i mean self belief is a trait that you cannot do without it's a prerequisite of success. if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. a self belief is about a core value that you have. i mean, it's about having a such a guiding principles in your life and sticking by them. and believing that that roadmap for your life is the one you're going to follow with those principles. what you don't abandon this principles. you can change root, you can change tactics. you can even sometimes change the destination for the principles of bad to carry you through. you've interviewed before

a prime minister of focus funding wrong phone and you know, he talked about that as well. and he's a great proponent of that incredible determination. and so. ready please give the vision to a country on a national level, but also to display that in your own lifetime with his achievements. i think he's a great example of what self police can do. this transformed you from a world class cricket to, to a well plus philanthropist to an educational list and now to a national leader, and indeed, a global leader offering. we have to take a very short break right now, but we'll be back in just a few moments station, the,

the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to was the 1st day of the semester. we talked about this tiny public policy analyst and tv breast test time. measuring before the break, we started talking about the self perception and national perception. and i know that seems to returning to back to some of you've done a lot of consulting and communication work for various like a sending entities,

including uh, i believe, a couple of, uh, government agencies. and when our i speak to back to sending people, i talked to here the practice that has an image problem. is that indeed an image problem or is it a problem of self perception? to i think is 1st i think may be the image problem is because of the self perception problem that i think having lived here now for almost 2 decades. i feel that focused on these. i still. a looking through the journey of developing an identity, a national identity, there is the, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media, will all sorts of views and narratives have a chance to, to page and come to the for. but that also has a downside in that. everything is up for debate. nothing is agreed on some of the

most fundamentals, for instance, right now, the country is going through a massive political, economic, and constitutional crisis. because even, you know, well interesting is can say that they would choose not to accept the supreme court, but right now in any other country that would be insoluble, inviolable. you couldn't say that. so here, even those basic fundamentals are still being debated and for talent, focus on the 75 years old. and i think the self identity is going to transform younger people are coming in at 65 percent of the population. that under the age of $35.00, then on yes, and those decision making seats and positions that i think you'll be able to generate grantor and generation takes away. young people will come and that identity will become more solid when you're saying that 75 percent of the population now fairly young. i mean, for people of those age,

it's natural to be concerned about how they look in the, in the eyes of the outside world. speaking of which we both participated in a conference recently organized by these. lemme about security diagram. you gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries, efforts to present the national image uh to the world. and what i saw sounds very funny is that the practice done is continually trying to develop one seems sort of a upcoming potential. you had the companions like vibrant practice done the rising practice on emerging factor so, so there's always some of this explanation of the same thing. and yet you don't seem to be able to stick window isn't what with one slogan in particular, why do you think that is, i mean, both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential, but also not being able to quite let it all plan. yeah. because i think the one thing that everybody does agree on is that we haven't reached out to them. so

there's lots of potential, but it hasn't been maximized. it hasn't actually grown and bloomed yet. i think that's what we do all agree on. so various reasons. so that's why the theme is always emerging or coming up for about to come up or about to fully realize the reason they, they can agree on the same as again with the politic peak, fractured a new governments come in and mediately change everything that the previous government did you know, as far as possible, i think until we reach that level of political maturity, it's going to be very difficult. as i said, i do have a great deal of hope as the most people in boxes on the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know, as they come up and they come into these decision making positions, they will not have the package of history and division that the older generation

jobs, and that's why i'm very hopeful about. but on the other hand, i think it's not only pakistan who is going through this very difficult challenge of a essentially differentiation because we live in an era and the political era. when most countries have to think consciously, not about just their external image, but about where they stand politically, economically, home based, so forth. when they don't support what they want to get out for themselves, what, what they're willing to give to others is, and it's a very, very difficult process for most countries. i interviewed people from around the world and i think everybody's pretty much going through the same process of uh, sort of a weakening of the self worth, not only on a personal level, but on, on a national level and even the international level. and i know it's a big question, but the, your a person that was a big reason so, so i want to ask you,

what do you think is taking all of us as humanity and this sort of burgeoning of potential all around the world and everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently from how you know others prefer them to be the same to hey, this is one of the great revolutions of social media. it has opened up access to information, but it is also allow people to get their point of view. so in the reliant on these global news networks, which dominated the eighty's and ninety's, where you didn't receive any alternative information or viewpoints. i think that's fantastic. and we are seeing a shift from a unique polar super power dominated well to this region, china, russia to be boxed bonnie wrong and the gulf states taking a key role in this feature. now, india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states,

but it has asserted its independence inside reform policy issues and decisions. for example, in 14 oil from russia. so focused on unfortunately, hasn't been able to do that because as you know, iran, hong government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence. but last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president instead about enforcing quote from russia. and i think that's a classic example of where super power has used its insurance to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. and you know, it's, it's sad that they do that because i think those days are over. now the public is much more aware of what's being done to them. you know, it's not 1953 where you can replace an elected democratic government wrong and replace it with the shop. the car is, i mean, you know, you for your country can. uh, you know, you,

if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics, they will try that until those ways will become totally and effective. so anyway, it's a natural process. you know, it was very interesting, a few years to go. i. so the late um tony then it was a real slow, so versus politics and p on bbc world and he was opposite john bolton, who's a us diploma. and they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing and comment. he said, you know, both are in part the you k and the us are in decline and you've got to accept that . and you know, you've been very rude on stuff from the american from john bolton, but he was an amazingly gracious person 30, but i think he was absolutely right. those empires are in decline on throughout the street. you've seen him class decline, and others take the place and now it is the rise of asia. it's the 21st century. and these regions will we work to trade with our neighbors. we should be able to

trade with russia, you know, we should be able to trade with iran, and yet we have sanctioned and it doesn't make any sense for us to be sanctioned by that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. i mean neighbors, you can change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you can change over your neighbors. now, we only have a couple of minutes left. we've talked a lot about sort of this and used potential effect of sun, but i want to pay homage to your roots as well. and, you know, whenever i visit packers, and i'm always sort of uh, stricken by the legacy of your founding father. and, well, how about de leon, janelle, who i think was a man of this amazing cohort on the life of attitude toward the goal, our church cheryl gunn, and the many others, even though he is much less known around the world. i think he was a, this very interesting and intricate combination. of course, my point with that isn't, you know, western education, fascination with certain aspects of western culture, but also in a genuine appreciation of his own. both. he was never ashamed of practice them. you

know, he liked it a lot, this many aspects of traditional culture. and i think this brand of sort of, and lots of conservatism is coming back, is making a comeback around. and, well, my question is, do you still live in pakistan? are you grounded enough in who you are already without a centrally closing off or the outside influences. some of them are very beneficial, but also, you know, failing enough the ability in your own identity to and i think that's fantastic question. and of course mama, the legion outside as a, is the founding fathers focused on. and he is yes, a much under research speaker. he was an amazing cousin who was so intellectually strong he had conquered. you know, the legal well, he was a barrister from lincoln's in, in, in england, so well respected,

highly paid highly in dom on. and yet he had that ability to honor his groups and give the muslims of position via their identity, which was a separate identity. and then yeah, it comes back to what you were talking about, that self fulfillment of identity. so yes, i think we have an enormously brilliant example in moment religion and increasingly the younger generation is learning more about. so i'm pull existence like and ross on have brought that to the for, you know, a lot of fun in his speeches does quote along my bow a great deal to put to us through the east. and he talks about self determination and realizing your human potential unit flying like the, showing the burden the uh rather than pulling on the flight. and i think that is something that focused on is the, you know, given the massive popularity, they run hot highs amongst youngsters, millions of people follow him and i think he is really starting to be great people to say you can be proud. yes. a west education is great. yes, it's fantastic. the have skills,

but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity. because without that, you will flow to way you weren't be incurred, its identity and principles. i'm preaching. and i think one of the quotes about him i, i read the now in front of the books by his contemporary. he said that there's enough confidence himself was incredible, but they didn't make him analysis. it turned into this very strong dedication to public service, to his lines and full acceptance off. not only course you was, but who's his culture man were and what's his control represented? so i guess i'm saying that to wrap up, i'm to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from wherever they are. absolutely. i think you have to look into your own history. you have to have a sense of pride in your national identity and a sense of pride in your leaders. if they're giving you a vision,

then you agree with that vision. you know, the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country by. because it is so selective and so biased. and so agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country for sure. all whether your own culture or the country is that for me to have that scheduled for aj and debates, my friend has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for that time . it's been a pleasure and thank you for watching culture, sir. again, it was a part of the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the i'm a film director, i've written many strips during my career. but i got really curious, cutting neural networks collaborate with a human to make a documentary film the brand new set up from want me to reach out to about this. the volume of sheriff comergence this, your motion shows was more, was do this well? no, but on board fuel with exclusive internet, no still cool. looks like you still are used to play scramble with the property of which look a lot. finally,

probably for you really the importance of literature sort of by the way we haven't introduced ourselves. i have the strangest feeling we've met somewhere before the the company, billions of dollars into the new nazi regime, does everything to, for the inflating the conflicts to draw their states into it. the russian president condemns west and country for igniting little conflict with ukraine port addressing the most of the conference on the international, secure. the also says k of is destroying people to the office judge as you find the law enforcement since the monks president says that the key up a chest loved rock and as