important says, working together and also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean . the . the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered on peter lavelle, nato. it's a peculiar organization. it claims to be defensive military lines. but at the same time, claims it must constantly expand. add to this, the alliance is quite to project stability. in reality, it projects instability and in security, and made russia, its primary enemy, the processing, the upcoming nato summit. i'm joined by my guess,

make live petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in portland, we haven't been ripped. he is a freelance journalist and in london we crossing the income my 10 day. he is a visiting lecturer at the law school of the university of westminster are a gentleman. crosstalk roles and the fact that means you can jump any time you want . and i always appreciate nichol. i let me go to you. first of, you know, there's been a lot of, uh, there was a lot of talk about the ukraine. so the counter offensive. and now there's a whole lot of talk about the upcoming summit and bill this of the nato summit, of course. and, but it's quite peculiar and yet, and i'm going to use that word. there seems to be a lot of double talk and ex, explaining what's going to happen there when nothing really much is going to happen . they're, they're going to throw a few bones to uh, to the ukrainians and other than that. and there's no membership in the cards. maybe no membership ever in the future. what are your thoughts as this i'm it is approaching the right. i think the game is lowering

expectations for ukraine. i think a senior polish official and just said not to expect too much. but on the other hand, sometimes it turns out the united states to manage is through the whole coersion and other on so on. pressure is to pull a rabbit out of the habit the last minute. this has happened before when it's been able to sell its own objectives in a way that seems appealing to others and then uh, hide from them of their, their long term implications. so i'm, uh, i'm still very wary about what this upcoming nato summit might lead to. well, they didn't let me go to you in london. i think nikolai, as usual, is spot on here and i'm, but what's interesting is, i mean rabbits, it'd be cool. it could be pulled out of

a hat. wouldn't be really about ukraine. it would be about russia, and this is what this is all about. go ahead and wanted. yes, that's absolutely correct. so then i agree with the last the comment that they but then you can call really expect more than the, the usual they will just simply be giving them a more promise of loans and that be a nation wide. in the meantime, the ukrainian societies being the, you know, it's being disruptive and it's, it's, it's disruptive. it's a disruptive, a thing, as i think based no question of the ukraine. the company as a member because they simply do don't fulfill any of the criteria for the so called math. so as you said, beads are, it is about so old about russia or even at the expense of the absence obliteration of the crate. and as they should states, as the of the,

you know, the actual degradation of, um, uh, european society and, and, and european security too, because that's not being addressed here. and we've actually create more in security because you will have a revisionist, so ukraine, i haven't, i mean, there's not a whole lot of logic involved in this here. those that want to push to give exceptions to ukraine to get into the alliance. well then there is a pay in europe and more, i mean, who in their right mind wants that go ahead in portland i think that everybody kind of has to play a game where they all want to pretend that they wanted just for, for our purposes. but no, i don't think anyone actually particularly wants to start a war in europe. i mean if they wanted to do that, they've had ample opportunity and they haven't done it. so i could see. ready would maybe even sending in some volunteers or something like that,

but i don't think it's going to be any ukraine's definitely not going to join nato . no bid. and they've made that quite clear. okay, well let's go back to nikolai and kingston, and then what is the long term implications here? because, you know, it is a nato consent talk all it wants about future membership of ukraine. but that's the red line for russia. and that's why we have this conflict. and so, you know, it's almost kind of an echo chamber and it may tell land, okay, because the no matter what comes out to build this, the russians have already made their position clear. and they're not going to budge from at least there's no evidence of it go ahead. nikolai, the hope lies not in the current leadership, political leadership in nato countries, but in their successors. there are interesting movements of support, particularly in germany, with the rise of alternative parties to prominence that are very much

skeptical of nato expansion. and the phrase is already been the use of forever wars that are going to be a burden specifically to german tax payers. and i think as germany goes, way if, if the conservative right wing in germany does come to power and sticks to its skeptical agenda of on, on german foreign policy and 6 to reverse that. then i think we will show more courage along the same lines displayed in france and italy, which is basically their right wing parties have, have caved to the nato agenda. correct? yeah, well you, i'm sorry, i'm going to have to throw your own words back at you. i mean, you as a lot of coercive power. i don't think it will allow that to happen. i think maybe i think what nato land has to worry about is colored revolutions instigated by

washington. if they don't stay in line, me guys go back to our guest in, in london it's, it's very interesting the term forever war has already been brought up here. and that is, i think, really what's at play here. the mountain states doesn't want ukraine in nato, and of course it doesn't, because then it would take on obligations. but the, the status quote works for washington, just fine. they have no legal obligation, so security obligation, so to protect you, crane. but a good it'll, it'll probably russia on the behalf of an update to, i mean, it's a perfect scenario for washington. go ahead and london. yes, it's a, it's a terrible situation and i sealed it. so obviously, rusher is holding fast to weeks. it's always is. and they can only get more line since the previous piece over to years have been um, throwing out the window uh, best of letting me improvements and obviously um, show the records of the signed agreements. and so if russia way

sent out, and i think the ukraine is on its foot on which is being systematically and try to be destroyed and america is just going to find a way of abandoning you. great. it's done that before to the south, vietnamese, the stomach to the codes of the guns. and that is also the unfortunate so afraid that the remains for, for ukraine. yeah, but that as i, i agree with our previous guess of the logic here. but this complex has been turned into an ex, essential conflict. okay? the u. s. last in afghanistan. last and the rack last of in libya, it'd be good and it had no real collateral damage. this is a very different thing. this is to do or, you know, i mean stilton berg. i've given it extending his term here. it is, it said recently in the last week or so that this is all about china now. okay. i

mean, this is ex, essential, it's not just a proxy war halfway around the world in, in developing country. go ahead in portland, well, land, in this case. i mean, they've had visited planning for so long. you know, the, the provocation is against ukraine. go back all the way to the 1940s. it was when they i believe it was the british you 1st made contact with the o u n. in 1944 and they've supported the members sense. so i think this one's kind of a, a bigger deal for them was 88 of waste, like libya and syria. you can just kind of, you know, throw some things out there. and if it doesn't work out, you just leave put ukraine. they've been so invested for so long, but i think it's hard for them to pull out if there's weight. well, i agree here nikolai. i mean, it's all about the rules based order. it's about

a european values. it's about barrels garden, i mean, they've invested a lot in this. okay. and, and it was a craven choice. i mean, the ukraine has nothing to do with european security, certainly that american security, they have chosen to do this nikolai and that. but so let me say 1st, 1st of all, that every war that america america seeks to fight and sales to it's public is an existential war. as gattis, dad was a war also for all the same values. and i don't think, although we're trying very hard, we haven't quite reached the level of commitment, the resources that we, we spent, and they've got us down over more than 20 years. so these things, these, these uh bouts of uh, of imperialism which is a recurring thing. in american foreign policy, continue and,

and will recur. but uh, at the end of the tunnel, i see the promise of realism. realism being simply a recognition of the facts on the ground. and when they can make a laugh, i get a rental. if i get interrupted the thing victorian, do you think victoria knew in things that way? i think victoria newland is not a permanent component of the foreign policy establishment. everyone's time is off at some point. and this particular bout with imperial expansion will have a lot of, i think, a long i don't, i hope lasting. i called a recuperation there will be sort of the hang over effect from this. i hope will be

more dramatic than it has been for it again as well. nickel, i'm going to talk about that in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming nato summit stage with r t. the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're so shorter is it conflict with the 1st law? show your mind, anticipation. we should be very careful about our professional intelligence at the point, obviously is to great trust are relevant to the various things with artificial intelligence. we have somebody with theme and

the robot most protects his phone. existence was on the november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security. the service offices, the entrances and exits the keys. oldest one, the street were looking for at least russian spies among the monks. we mean zillow seeming as it goes and why not follow reason for the brutal grunt down one churches parishioner sits on his own about the throne being reason enough to condemn any orthodox christian attacks in prison and

even kill them rush so that i knew i shut my end to figure out how many miles store you installed a new install of the i see we used to use the same, you know it's the similar. so new phone i used to miss dog. this is new need to just saw the the welcome x across. ok, we're all things are considered. i'm peter in the mail to mind you were discussing the upcoming nato summit. the okay, let's go back to our guests in england and they, inc, i, i'm sure you came across the article by john mearsheimer um, titled the darkness ahead where the ukraine wore is heading. and it's a fascinating, he's a piece of writing and, and, and, and it's a big picture which everybody really wants to understand. and he get his

conclusions. i widely respect his work. but then he, there's one element here that i think could, we could have almost like an endless discussion about and is conclusion that this could end up in some kind of frozen conflict, which i find that really kind of fascinating people mentioned the, the co korean poet peninsula, as an example, i, it doesn't work for me because all of the major powers bought into a frozen complet rush is not going to do that. your thoughts go ahead in london to? yeah, i think uh for sure that this is the only so that's a need. so has all of the company was be considered a strategic the feed for nato. nato has a really big ego. i mean, when it comes to russia, oh, they have a superior already complex here. can they compromise it? this is something the nichol i was trying to bring up. keep going in london. well, the big, big, big, big cat in a sense, and they will try and sell it because of victory. i mean,

we haven't had much about syria, which was an example of, of frozen conflict. but the us is still occupying a positive syria, and it's imposing a terrible sanctions on it. so i would tend to agree with the, the point of view, let's russia will not find a frozen conflict, the acceptable that in goals and elements of, with agreements and russia and has led through be to experience. so one broken promise to another, you know, going back to the problem so not one mortgage east which relates so up to the recent makes the call. busy the be um a frustrating to the agreements uh we visit so let's be a government last year. so um, but fortunately, i don't see it as being the and the goal shades at the set. i don't see certain members of the date. so even want to not be side is fine with that, you know,

unfortunately the, the present leadership in, in, in poland and apparently english sofa roman was the while skis for sure. that's that they just come from and should not to hate russian or more than they love opponents. and so i think russia is going to talk 3 times as see that's terms on negotiate with some sort of remnants of all of our ukranian. the reason why rob is in the talk software was evan. i mean it's already been mentioned the minutes, cuz uh process which was a fraud on the western side. the major players have admitted it. so. okay. um, so i mean, if we're gonna talk about some kind of frozen conflict, i mean, that's nonsensical because then they'll just take that time to build up capacity and sort of more over again. i mean, i don't, i didn't understand the logic. i wish i could talk to mirror so i'm really like, don't understand that part of it space is go ahead and, and yeah, i mean,

and we convinced it was they didn't even try there. there wasn't ever really any real desire to implement that. the ridiculous thing is, if you look back at it, how willing russia has actually been to make a deal on all this had they have made the deal that the forest johnson kill diabetes brochure was actually willing to give up. wait a lot in that deal of what they have that we did. and so as the war goes on, their position is only going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. because obviously the ukrainians can actually dislodge the russian army from where they're at. and so the longer they weighed the worst that a negotiations are going to get nikolai, it's very interesting if we look at what the, what was negotiated in this stem bull. it's fascinating. zalinski was asked to give up what he didn't have. i mean, it's remarkable. he didn't have the don bass,

he didn't have the crime in. he was asked to give up what he didn't have. and now we're looking at. we are nikolai, as well. the bottom line for me is that the outcome of the negotiations will be set by the suit you with the military situation on the ground. and right now everyone is still jockeying for position and this has been going on for a long time. you're beginning to read things about how in, in american newspapers, how zalinski is, is recognizing that he may not be able to achieve victory. and all these accounts, these narratives are setting up the various constituencies in the west to make concessions, whether they want to or not. because once the counter offensive,

assuming it, it runs its course and is ultimately unsuccessful. at that point, all the cards are in rushes hands and the decision will have to be taken on rush aside to advance or just stop. and at that point it becomes an imperative for the west. you negotiate this, go back to our guest and one to do by that because of the way i look at it is here, is it we and it's already been mentioned on our program here is, has been a lot, but a lot of lies and deceit here the russians, i think, will unilaterally decide when it's over your thoughts. well that's, that's uh my mind is thinking that as well, i think, um, they have no problem, so to speak, to the go shake with. and they are surrounded by a try and you intransigence, it seems to me that's um they have to go on out to reclaim whatever is left of the declared the independent down best regions. they

might give us pause or data and they will have to then be confronted if need. so then decides to uh, send in the police troops officially, which would be a dis oscar for everybody, but so i don't see uh this. um, as i see, does it say any point, you know, you know, going back to a previous point that, that, that, that was made. but at some point, this is one of these last that too much for the west. the amount of money being hauled into ukraine, the expense of the defeat will no longer be able to be uh, to be caught up and bodies when courageous people in politics and academia monitor population will need to come forward. and really get rid of. it's not just about me to renew it and it's about people who shared the same ideology as

a really need to be a focus on in the public schools in the united states. and they really needs to be gotten rid of. yeah, i, i've been, i the people that i dance guy was i talking about. they don't exist. okay. they've been marginalized, they've been cancelled, and they're all posing puppets. okay. i wish we could wish that was a track, but i don't see it because so much hubris is on the line right now. again, this is, you know, they, they did this to themselves. they ratio themselves into this. go ahead in portland . yeah, i mean, and if you look at the history of the people that are involved here it's, it's, it's hard because you will get to bite. and i mean, he has had a long career in american politics at this point. and at this point, he has been pro war every time he's been pro war with every what he was pro vietnam, he was pretty sloppy. i rack in afghanistan, where as much as creation is anybody else is i still remember him sitting at the

table next to george w bush saying that saddam had weapons of mass destruction 45 minutes away from being launched. and so how do you negotiate with this man? how do i need to go say any but how do you negotiate with this mentality of this world view, this ideology, that's the problem here. nichol. i were rapidly running out of time, but you always have a word of optimism. mean you've already kind of touched upon it. i mean, you talked about realism here. i wish we could have realism here, because you know what, europe and russia are neighbors and they're going to be neighbors for a very long time to come. go ahead nicholas. and there will, there is an establishment. there is a deep state, but there is also, there are also alternatives to them. they keep springing up and those will not go away either. i'm not, i don't know when or if they will try them. but certainly their voices are becoming

more and more heard. a bye bye all i think, and that's a that is a reason for optimism in the long run. okay, well, i mean, what is the long run here? because, i mean, can you do say, what do you see the west accepting russian security interest? i mean, that's what this is all about. i mean, the russians, it's all black and white. it was on december 17th. the, you know, the months before the complex, i mean, everybody knows what russia wants, can they, can they accepted, denying it all the way they will effectively accept it. okay. okay, let's go to one. did you buy that? do you think that they could, i mean this is eating so much crow. okay. this is not as bad as that. it's not a rock. it's not libya, it's different. go ahead in london. i think they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll try and sell it as a fig tree. whatever happens um, but uh, i kind of see russian bunch in the deal. collins like streamline tries agenda along

with the american exceptionally since the military industry still pub tried for me and something with china, another dangerous adventure, but they will try and divert attention from your brain ultimate. okay, what looks to be a certain degree? okay, ever. we have one, we have one minute left, so this i, i have the solution for the neo columns and the victoria new ones of the world. how to get out of this. and it goes something like it's, well, it least the russians didn't make their paris. we won, that's what they're going to do. go ahead and portland. yeah, i mean, i'm sure that they'll come up with some sort of a scenario that the americans are very good at that they still like to say that they want in vietnam to you know, we killed so many more of them. that means we won the war, but, you know, they'll, they'll just come up with something. i'm sure either that or they'll just started another war. similar else is what they usually do. well, it,

it's very interesting because these are leads that you are easily entertainment, ancient, and changeable to in the west. they seem to be um, more apt at creating problems than solving any problems over the last 50 years or so gentlemen, that's all the time we have a want to think, my guess in portland kingsland and in london. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. remember across cycles, the

of the in 1492 this evening, christopher columbus read to the bahamas and discover the new world for europe. the wealth of america and its fast territories cosby envy of the europeans, especially the spaniards and the portuguese. they sought, after taking over these lands. however, there lived indigenous peoples with

a high culture and their own nation who was there to barbaric colonization of america, which went down in history under the name of con, diesel. that lasted for more than 100 years. in 1521 care design, cortez is kind of due to the doors captured and destroyed the capital of the aztec empire. daniels practically massacring the local population. following them, francisco pizarro is gun case. the doors destroyed the inca empire as a result of spanish aggression. the agent, maya civilization collapse, suppressing the resistance of the indians. the invaders carried out mass executions . the horrendous genocide was aggravated by the diseases that the europeans had brought to america. the number of the indigenous population decreased 16 times from 25 till one and a half 1000000 people from keystone became one of the largest demographic disaster fees of mankind and remains an indelible bloody stain in the history of the

european colonial empires. the god. yesterday to november 22nd 2022 pound raised orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service officers looking entrances and exits the thieves owed. as i'm on the street, looking for our latest russian spies among the monks, was not difficult to bring your mama lava focus. today, ukrainian security services can brand an agent of moscow any montgomery's unwilling

to bring relations with the russian orthodox church. dozens of ukrainian 2 inches have been rated from a reason for the brutal crack down one churches permission, a sense of a song about russia. the prophet in numerous searches, s b. u offices reported they'd found orthodox magazines printed in russia. the s b . you didn't care that these publications were religious and it'd been printed more than 3 years before maybe, but they were from moscow and ukraine. it's a long been recently to condemn any orthodox christian attack in prison and even kill them. the.