she explained of, of i am asked is near historical levels, growth rates have dropped falling when it's done in its worst form, has a leveling effect, and it has a tendency to really just sort of strip away everything that's there. the wave fisheries are changing. it's the way our country is sending. it's increasingly hard for small businesses to make it abundant. stocks are important. i mean, who wants to fish the last bit, the message i would leave to you is the importance of not giving up the importance of working together and also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean. the . the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. non peter live out

. nature was a peculiar organization. it claims to be defensive military lines. but at the same time, claims it must constantly expand. add to this, the alliance is quite to project stability. in reality, it projects instability and in security and made russia, its primary enemy, the processing, the upcoming nato summit. i'm joined by my guess, nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in portland, we haven't been ripped. he is a freelance journalist and in london we crossed the income mackenzie. he is a visiting lecturer at the law school of the university of westminster are a gentleman crosstalk roles in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate nichol. i let me go to you. first of, you know, there's been a lot of, uh, there was a lot of talk about the ukraine. so got counter offensive. and now there's a whole lot of talk about the upcoming summit and bill this of the nato summit,

of course. and, but it's quite peculiar and yeah, and i'm going to use that word. there seems to be a lot of double talk and ex, explaining what's going to happen there when nothing really much is going to happen . they're, they're going to throw a few bones to uh, to the ukrainians and other than that. and there's no membership in the cards. maybe, you know, membership ever in the future. what are your thoughts as somebody to is approaching right. i think the game is lowering expectations for ukraine. i think a senior polish official just said not to expect too much. but on the other hand, sometimes it turns out the united states manages through the whole coersion and other on so on. pressure is to pull a rabbit out of the habit the last minute. this has happened before when it's been

able to sell its own objectives in a way that seems appealing to others and then uh, hide from them of their, their long term implications. so i'm, i'm still very wary about what this upcoming nato summit might lead to. well, they didn't let me go to you in london. i think got nikolai, as usual, is spot on here. and i'm, but what's interesting is that they wrap it. they did because they could be pulled out of a hat. wouldn't be really about ukraine. it would be about russia, and this is what this is all about. go ahead and wanted. yes, that's absolutely correct. so then i agree with the last, the comment that they, that thing you can call really expect more than the, the usual they will just simply be giving them a more promise of loans and have your nation while in the meeting. so i'm the

ukrainian societies being the, you know, it's being disruptive and it's, it's, it's disruptive. it's a disruptive, a saying, as i think based no question of the ukraine become being a member, because they simply do don't fulfill any of the criteria for the so called math. so as you said, beads are, it is about so old about russia or even at the expense of the absence obliteration of the crate. and as they should states, as the um, the, you know, the actual degradation of, um, uh, european society. since i go ahead and add your fee and security to because that's not being addressed here, and we've actually create more in security because you will have a revisionist, so ukraine, i haven't, i mean, there's not a whole lot of logic involved in this here. those that want to push to give exceptions to ukraine to get into the alliance. well, then there is

a and pay and european war. i mean, who in their right mind wants that go ahead and portland i think that everybody kind of has to play a game with. they all want to pretend that they wanted just for, for our purposes. but no, i don't think anyone actually particularly wants to start a war in europe. i mean if they wanted to do that, they've had ample opportunity and they haven't done it. so i can see pool would maybe even sending in some volunteers or something like that. but i don't think it's going to be any ukraine's definitely not going to join nato. no. been. and they've made that quite clear. okay, well, let's go back to nikolai and kingston and then what is the long term implications here? because, you know, it is a nato consent talk all it wants about the future membership of ukraine, but that's the red line for russia. and that's why we have this conflict. and so, you know, it's almost kind of an echo chamber and it may tell land, okay,

because the no matter what comes out to build this, the russians have already made their position clear. and they're not going to budge from at least there's no evidence of it go ahead. nikolai, the hope lies not in the current leadership, political leadership in nato countries, but in their successors. there are interesting movements of support, particularly in germany, with the rise of alternative parties to prominence that are very much skeptical of nato expansion. and the phrase is already been the use of forever wars that aren't going to be a burden specifically to german tax payers. and i think as germany goes, way if, if the conservative right wing in germany does come to power and sticks

too. it's a skeptical agenda of on, on german foreign policy and 6 to reverse that. then i think we will show more courage along the same lines displayed in france and italy, which is basically their right wing parties have, have caved to the nato agenda. correct? yeah, well you, i'm sorry, i'm going to have to throw your own words back at you. i mean, you as a lot of coercive power. i don't think it will allow that to happen. i think maybe i think what nato land has to worry about is colored revolutions instigated by washington. if they don't stay in line, me guys go back to our guest in, in london it's, it's very interesting the term forever war has already been brought up here. and that is, i think, really what's at play here. the mountain states doesn't want ukraine in nato, and of course it doesn't, because then it would take on obligations. but the, the status quote works for washington, just fine. they have no legal obligation, so security obligation, so to protect ukraine. but a good it'll,

it'll probably russia on the behalf of an update to, i mean, it's a perfect scenario for washington. go ahead in london. yes, it's a, it's a terrible situation and i sealed it. so obviously a brochure is holding fast to it. it's always is and they can only get more line since the previous piece over the years have been um, thrown out to the window. uh, best of luck to be improvements in the obviously, um show the records of the signed agreements. and so if russia wakes, it's out and i think the ukraine is on, it's the dog which is being systematically tried to be destroyed in america is just going to find a way of abandoning you. great. it's done that before to the south, vietnamese. the stomach too. because of the guns, and that is also the unfortunate so afraid that the remains for,

for ukraine. yeah. but i haven't, i, i agree with our previous guess of the logic here, but this complex has been turned into an ex essential conflict. okay. the u. s. last in afghanistan, last and the rack last of in libya, it'd be good and it had no real collateral damage. this is a very different thing. this is the do or, you know, i mean stilton berg. i've given it, extending his term here. is it said recently in the last week or so, but this is all about china now. okay. i mean, this is ex, essential, it's not just a proxy war halfway around the world in, in developing country. go ahead and portland, well land in this case, i mean, they've had busy planning for so long. you know, the, the profit asians against ukraine. go back all the way to the 1940s. it was wednesday. i believe it was the british you 1st made contact with the o u n. in 1944 and they've supported the members sense. so i think this one's

kind of a, a bigger deal for them was 88 of waste, like libya and syria. you can just kind of, you know, throw some things out there and if it doesn't work out, she just leave put ukraine. they've been so invested for so long. but i think it's hard for them to pull out at this weight. well, i agree here, nikolai, i mean it's all about the rules based order. it's about a european values. it's about barrels garden, i mean, they've invested a lot in this. okay. and, and it was a craven choice. i mean, the ukraine has nothing to do with european security, certainly that american security, they have chosen to do this nikolai and that, that. so let me say 1st, 1st of all, that every war that america america seeks to fight and sales to it's

public is an existential war. uh, as gattis dad was a war also for all the same values. and i don't think, although we're trying very hard, we haven't quite reached the level of commitment, the resources that we, we spent, and they've got us down over more than 20 years. so these things, these, these uh bouts of uh, of imperialism which is a recurring thing. in american foreign policy, continue and, and will recur. but uh, at the end of the tunnel, i see the promise of realism. realism being simply a recognition of the facts on the ground and on victory nichol. i find you never know if i can interrupt you. do you think victorian do you think victoria no one thinks that way. and i think victoria newland is not a permanent component of the foreign policy establishment. everyone's time

is off at some point. and this particular bout with imperial expansion will have a lot of, i think, a long i don't, i hope, lasting recuperation. there will be sort of the hang over effect from this. i hope will be more dramatic than it has been for it again. well, nickel, i'm going to talk about that in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the upcoming natal summit stage with r t the the

the, the most reason is munoz curtis. imagine if you speak russian, keep your voice down while house in about. so when i give up, if i chose for x perspectives, don't put your human symbols on display especially on stage reason to guide. so you guys don't talk to strangers, the void noisy gatherings and was wondering why she didn't rely on get them in the motor. she's eating your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because your russian let you know the boom. so what can i do? i'm that was mindset from it. so i'd be glad to reduce the team that does styles

is be a good fit genetic bundle of buying it. so the consumption to buy the specific store . so we can finding what the says 2060 numerous monuments to serve you as soldiers and potent ukraine. and the baltic states have been destroyed, all vandalized fish their stuff, but it must be the full certainly within. yeah. unless or even some others could. i ask if i don't think so. that's the most on whether it's it's especially almost putting in the police government denies the rule of soviet sonya is in the victory of a naziism. and is it raising historical memories of world war 2? because the people in your story, although it did seem the non c regimes, the trustees would remain, thinks in people's consciousness, but have a but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the cost. yes. yes, don't take up,

the provides for the stadium says i need to see things because of the facts, so i need to raise the welcome x across. ok, we're all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt, remind you were discussing the upcoming nato summit. the okay, let's go back to our guests in england and they, inc, i, i'm sure you came across the article by john mearsheimer um, titled the darkness ahead where the ukraine wore is heading. and it's a fascinating, he's a piece of writing and, and, and, and it's a big picture which everybody really wants to understand. and he get his conclusions. i widely respect his work. but then he, there's one element here that i think could, we could have almost like an endless discussion about and is conclusion that this

could end up in some kind of frozen conflict, which i find that really kind of fascinating people mentioned the, the co korean poet peninsula, as an example, i, it doesn't work for me because all of the major powers bought into a frozen complet. russia is not going to do that. your thoughts go ahead in london? uh. yeah, i think uh for sure. this is the only, so that's a name, so has all the windows be considered a strategic to feed for nato? nato has a really big ego. i mean, when it comes to russia, oh, they have a superior already complex here. can they compromise it? this is something that nichol i was trying to bring up, keep going in london. well, the big, big, big, big cat in a sense, and they will try and sell it because of victory. i mean, we haven't had much about syria, which was an example of a frozen conflict, but the us is still occupying a cause of syria and it's imposing

a terrible sanctions on it. so i would tend to agree with the, the point of view, let's um, russia will not find a frozen conflict, the acceptable that in goals and elements of, of the agreements and russia and has led through be to experience. so one broken promise to another, you know, going back to the problem so not, not one mortgage east was for late. so up to the recent uh, mexico. busy the, the, um, uh uh for straight to the agreements we visit. so let's be a government last year. so that of fortunately i don't see it as being the and the goal shades the set. my, i don't see certain members of bait. so even want seeing that the site is fine with that, you know, unfortunately the, the present leadership in, in, in poland and apparently english. so the roland was the mon skis portion

that they just come from and should not to hate russia or more than they love products. and so i think russia is going to talk to jobs as see that's a terms on the go straight to with some sort of remnants of or over you, craig, in a really well robin's in the box also is the evidence. i mean it's our even mentioned the minutes cuz process which was a fraud on the western side. the major players have been committed. it's okay. um, so i mean, if we're gonna talk about some kind of frozen conflict, i mean, that's nonsensical because then they'll just take that time to build up capacity and start the war over again. i mean, i don't, i didn't understand the logic. i wish i could talk to mirror so i'm really like, don't understand that part of this piece is go ahead and, and yeah, i mean in which minutes get was they didn't even try there. there wasn't ever really any real desire to implement that. the ridiculous thing is, if you look back at it, how willing russia has actually been to make

a deal on all this had they have made the deal that the forest johnson kill diabetes brochure was actually willing to give up way to watts in that deal of what they have now we've it and so as the war goes on, their position is only going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. because obviously the ukrainians can actually dislodge the russian army from where they're at. and so the longer they way the worst that a negotiations are going to get nikolai, it's very interesting if we look at what the, what was negotiated in this stem bull. it's fascinating. zalinski was asked to give up what he didn't have. i mean, it's remarkable. he didn't have the don bass, it didn't have the crime in. he was asked to give up what he didn't have. and now we're looking at. we are nikolai, as well. the bottom line for me is that the outcome

of the negotiations will be set by the, situate, the military situation on the ground. and right now everyone is still jockeying for position as this has been going on for a long time. you're beginning to read things about how in, in american newspapers, how zalinski is, is recognizing that he may not be able to achieve victory. and all these accounts, these narratives are setting up the various constituencies in the west to make concessions, whether they want to or not. because once the counter offensive, assuming it, it runs its course and is ultimately unsuccessful. at that point, all the cards are in russia's hands and the decision will have to be taken on rush

aside to advance or just stop. and at that point, it becomes an imperative for the west. negotiate this, go back to our guest and one to do by that because of the way i look at it is here is that we and it's already been mentioned. um our program here is, has been a lot, but a lot of lies and deceit here. the russians, i think, for unilaterally decide when it's over your thoughts. well that's, that's uh my mind is thinking that as well, i think, um they have no partner, so to speak, to the go shake with. and they are surrounded by, um it tries, you intransigence, it seems to me that um they have to go on out to um, reclaim um uh, whatever is left of the declared independence, donald bess regions they might go as far as or desa and uh they will have to then

uh, become frontier they've made so then decides to uh, send in the police troops officially, which would be at this oscar for everybody. but so i don't see uh this um, as i said, as a turning point, you know, you know, going back to a previous point that, that, that, that was made. but at some point, this is one of these off that too much for the west. the amount of money being put . busy into ukraine, the expense of the defeat will no longer be able to be, to be cover the bodies when courageous people in politics and academia monitor population will need to come forward. and really get rid of. it's not just about victoria new and it's about people who shared the same ideology as a really need to be a focus on in the public schools in the united states. and they really needs to be gotten rid of. yeah i, i've been the people that, um i dance guy was talking about. they don't exist. okay. they've been marginalized,

they've been cancelled, and they're all potent puppets. okay. i wish we could wish that was a track, but i don't see it because so much hubris is on the line right now. again, this is, you know, they, they did this to themselves. they ratio themselves into this. go ahead in portland . yeah, i mean, and if you look at the history of the people that are involved here it's, it's, it's hard because you will get to bite. and i mean, he has had a long career in american politics at this point. and at this point, he has been pro war every time he's been pro war with every what he was pro vietnam. he was pro and you this lobby, a i rack in afghanistan were as much as creation is anybody else? as i still remember him, sitting at the table next to george w bush saying that saddam had weapons of mass destruction. 45 minutes away from being launched. and so how do you negotiate with this man?

how do i need to go say any but how do you negotiate with this mentality of this world view, this ideology? that's the problem. you, nikolai, we're rapidly running out of time, but you always have a word of optimism in, you've already kind of touched upon it. i mean, you talked about realism here. i wish we could have realism here, because you know what, europe and russia are neighbors and they're going to be neighbors for a very long time to come. go ahead nicholas. and there will, there is an establishment. there is a deep state, but there is also, there are also alternatives to them. they keep springing up and those will not go away either. i'm not, i don't know when or if they will try them. but certainly their voices are becoming more and more heard. a bye bye all i think, and that's a that is a reason for optimism in the long run. okay, well, i mean,

what is the long run here? because, i mean, can you do say, what do you see the west accepting russian security interest? i mean, that's what this is all about. i mean, the russians, it's all black and white. it was on december 17th. the, you know, the months before the complex, i mean, everybody knows what russia wants, can they, can they accepted, denying it all the way they will effectively accept it. okay. okay, let's go to one. did you buy that? do you think that they could, i mean this is eating so much crow. okay, cuz this is not at a site, it's not a rock, it's not libya, it's different. go ahead in london. i think they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll try and sell it as a fig tree. whatever happens um, but uh, i kind of see rush, i bought a bunch in the deal. collins like streamline tries agenda along with the american exceptionally since the military industry still pop tried for made something with china, another dangerous adventure,

but they will try and divert attention from ukraine ultimate. okay, so what looks to be a certain do for you? okay. ever. we have one, we have one minute left. so this i, i have the solution for the neo cons and the victoria new ones of the worm. how to get out of this. and it goes something like it's, well, it least the russians didn't make their paris. we won, that's what they're going to do. go ahead and portland. yeah, i mean, i'm sure that they'll come up with some sort of a scenario that the americans are very good at that they still like to say that they want in vietnam to you know, we killed so many more of them. that means we won the war, but, you know, they'll, they'll just come up with something. i'm sure either that or they'll just started another war somewhere else. that's what they usually do. well it's, it's very interesting because these are leads that you are easily entertainment, ancient, and changeable to in the west. that may seem to be more apt at creating problems

and solving any problems over the last 50 years or so gentlemen. that's all the time we have a one to think, my guess in portland kingsland and in london. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. remember across cycles the, [000:00:00;00] the neutrality is one of the most flexible concepts and international relations that you can imagine, which is why it's so useful. but why it is so inherently different to the difficult to grasp. so that the chances we have is the country subpoenaed with the meaning that is useful to them and hopefully to, to all this because i didn't, i didn't, i didn't score it means i'm not taking the side of either of completely

the body of 3 people. so for instance, coming up with is what the psalm i'd love to have to choose between you. you too. bye. bye bye the this goes up there. the word made that up. we may have that apple beat was off of the cool

a lot. so shift things to get suitable for something that you all a lot and that your life as a piece of paper for your thoughts. i'm a film director, i've written many scripts during my career, but i thought really curious, cutting neural networks, collaborate with a human to make a documentary film bring your set up so much good for me not to be chosen about this because i love share comergence this your more than so it was more list, you know, this is what i don't know, but i would feel with exclusive internet. no, still go with like, do you feel, are you supposed to be mostly positive about the loss finally, probably for you really feel ports of literature sort of by the way we haven't introduced ourselves. i have the strangest feeling we've met somewhere before

the . the explosion in moscow was air defenses intercepted drone over the capital prussia brands that a foil crated terrorist attack. you've gone to an authority slammed the world bank after its decision to hold the financial aid because of the and t l g b t law on the east african con. ready for action. the echo was group of west african nations reaffirms that will step in militarily. if all else fails over the crisis in the chair. but much of africa itself seems divided over armed intervention. the