of the many of us around the world know the stories of the most famous whistle blowers. we speak often about the likes of julian assange, ed snowden, and daniel ellsberg to name just a few. but an important thing that we should never forget is that others are blowing the whistle every single day, all around the world, against waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. and they do it largely in anonymity that doesn't make it any less important. in fact, i would argue that it is more important to blow the whistle at the local level where we spend most of our lives. our next guest is the perfect example of blowing the whistle in relative obscurity where the authorities put themselves into thinking that they can get away with clamping down on truth tellers. i'm john kerry . ok. welcome to the whistle blowers the

. 2 2 2 2 2 a georgina health hall, joining the case, royal navy upon graduation from school and worked in human resources before leaving to raise a family. she later return to spend 3 years in financial services before moving to the department of works and pensions, where she was, the leadership and performance management specialist. she became the 1st internal human resources leadership and development consultant there working for the chief of staff in 2008. she went into the non profit sector as the chief executive officer of a charity in early june, 2014. she was surprised at her home when a police van drove up while she was in her kitchen preparing lunch, 7 armed officers wearing stabbed vests and carrying guns, forced their way into her cottage and arrested her. she was charged with handling stolen documents and was taken to a police station for questioning. what was the catalyst for this action?

georgina had exposed bullying and systematic abuse that her son school, which was one of the country's most famous military schools. she and her husband had sent their 11 year old son to the duke of york's royal military school because it claimed to instill military values and its students. instead, it was a place of punishment, abuse, and bullying beyond the boundaries of decency. and more was the blowing was to follow that was in the charity sector in the n, georgina how for the whole one, her various legal cases. but that has not stopped the struggle. it's the life of a whistle blower. even one whose work might be for the most part under the radar, georgina health or hall, welcome to the show. thanks so much for joining us. absolute pleasure. john is loved it to me. i'd like to start at the beginning. you were a wife and a mother going about your business, like any normal person, you were working and taking care of your family and then one day you were in your kitchen making lunch and your home was rated by the authorities. tell us about that

. why did that happen, and what was your reaction and well, it is all tossed with much bigger story. i've been given some information that i provided to the lord and for us when in the u. k. and they gave it back to me and told me to look after it. and that information was all about child abuse in the school. and i didn't touch the expect to have my house rated by 7 police officers were in the riot, get food with the helmets, as opposed to like, perhaps they should have taken off the shoes as well. but they were concerned. the tie has been handling the stone and don't humans, the die has been inappropriate with people states a we're not so fight to like try to do is spin into dimitry and pass it to the people who have the steps that you powers or 13 will want to do something to stop the abuse of children. and that just really lets me into this journey is just it's

about just just isn't it? they picked the wrong moving on the wrong day. i didn't, i didn't know what happened, but i just, so i'm not putting up with this. and the police officers concerned i, i said at the time in the same kind of time i'm talking to you. this is a korea defining moment for you guys. and it was, i ended up sitting, facing them, but they're in disciplinary hearings. i'm seeing how, i think fundamentally days some people have been missed directed, but they're gonna pay for it for the hold of the rest of the career the lives probably. in the meantime, none of the people involved in abusing children and covering it up. none of them do property help to attempt. it's been hushed up. people have been swept away. that cruise have probably been to tales. in some cases. this is mitchell receipt is public to no impact, but i'm told that the police investigation is ongoing. i suppose this much alacrity behind it. these are the still appropriate across most countries that these are

just children. everything's historical after it's happened. and we've got biggest things to do with the evidence will be easier to obtain, is that shape and you can ignore for us. but you know, how difficult the, you know, how high the bar is, how you have to get your witness to be able to speak. and i'm children, the notoriously, not listen to. so i suppose for me, this whole issue around with supplying is about access to justice and about ensuring that the amount of who you are, how to well where you live, what your background is. you are not outside of that system that is open to everybody in that there are people who like actual to ensure that you are listen to. and if you're speaking of, i asked about other people that you will listen to that off. so everybody is

protected. we need a safety that for every citizen, not just in the cape around the world. how long did this drag out? presumably, the authorities try to intimidate you by charging you with stealing some sort of documents. what was that all about? and how is it finally resolved? you know, lots of time is going by. this will happen to me in 20, in june 2014, fresh. just to just stay for the 6th of june, 2014. so you can see it's only 10 years. it's 9 years ago. um and i tend to try and focus on the upside of it, but the action was taken that that particular school this relates to give you up for a military school in kent. i'm sure it's probably one of the safest schools on in the world now. but it took a parent because the people who, who were working in the school who had tried refreshed aside. but many of them

didn't try because they were too afraid of what was happened to them. i don't think hun braver old than anybody else, to be quite honest with you. just called me perhaps as a time when i felt i suppose incense enough to want to do something about it. and so as for my journey, yet it's still, it's still going on really because then we won't live with the legacies before this happens. but what i would say is it really made me recognize that most people are good. the most people are not all full of many people get close up in these conspiracies and cover up some someone. no, because they set out to do it. but they just, they get shipped into a system. and i'm sure when you think back to your experience, john, that most of the people around you probably didn't think you were doing the wrong thing. but they, you might have been asked in

a different way. i'm sure lots of people look at me and say you could have done a different way, which is why now, when i saw advising people, i help them to avoid some of the bad traps that are out there and keep themselves safe. georgina, after your, with the blowing experience you went on to found the group whistle blowers, u. k. tell us about whistle blowers, u k. and the work that you're doing there, what do you focus on? well, it was founded by groups of peaceful great because some where was the blows of this a piece of what was, was the blow as an in senior positions. and it was about helping to facilitate access to justice. and one thing to use a bit public press to to stop people going notes and get digging themselves into holes and getting themselves into trouble. um, it was all about creasing a community when nobody would have to walk this, letting me road alone. because we do stay on our website, you know, alone, you know, cuz i'm sure we, we just don't have. so let's use to help everybody. but we do try, and it's a, in,

in our organizations ideas for around identifying the commonality. developing a consensus about legislation needs to the site to create fast, safe, and a level playing field. everybody who speaks up and we do the am attends the prep, perhaps collections you know, didn't just wait till the meeting is that's what we're going to do. and that's what it looked like. if it develop tape for periods of time, a more more people joined us and you know, i would train now is go hundreds of people on it and some get off and some get back on again, some, some change direction altogether. but fundamentally setting those principles that we, we want to help provide practical supports help and information for what's the blow is. and to do that, we've got a free, confidential reporting platform. so then they even have to speak to anyone if they just want to test the waters. we've got a great carter of dedicated caseworkers to understand the sexes and also have

developed real counseling skills that give people that reassurance again back to. they don't feel the 9 that they feel listen to this, to understood. and we take you that the paste. they want to get to the whistle blow wants to go out and we don't judge because everyone makes mistakes. no, every list of low is a good test. and let's face it, you know, good people do bad things about people, the good things and some, you know, some just all mixed up in both. but we have develops the most amazing team as lloyd is led by in mitchell and he was in court, represent you really complex case pro bono, and it's taking him months supported by one of our junior and training barristers. all of this is what we built a community that respects and responds to each other. no time. we didn't charge. i'm sure you've heard about it in the criticisms,

but we don't charge most people. we just ask people to come see if they come. because if we don't, we don't have any fund is we don't have regular funding with government, don't give us money. we all the only not for profit organization, we don't share our etc. so we, we struggle for funding and we do the best that we can do is what we thoughts. but we try to prepare with suppliers and, and we try to work with people to keep them mentally, physically and emotionally, strong, unable to go through. a process that can take me is and change is how people think and often changes lives that we also try and work with the families as well. keeping everybody together, keeping the support network in place and being part of it. like to come up with the basic has assembly said people come on, they come all they get on the golf, but we're always the and we remember the people at times behaving different ways because they distressed. and there was this and you know, when you didn't know what your feet truth having has it or planned out, this is

a massive shop to people back to the surface, the place you case really about support information and help and being a family. we've got and i'm going to give him a good shouts out cuz i want you to interview him the amazing night to attend and he's just a fabulous guy. and he's a whistle blower himself and he's been absolutely to hell and back. but he's now leading up here to pay support and designing a really for the team process and, and the program that will give always the blow. isn't anybody else who wants it even more support and confidence in that they'll just speaching up within a group that to their, to their employer or to an organization. building takes ability building a culture that we want to see from the inside out. we're trying to move the, what we want other people to take, and we don't just to the, to make sense to me, get it wrong. hands with a f, as you know, updating and trying to improve things,

listening to our feedback. and on top of size, you've asked me what we do and i was just giving me a you've given me the ability to of all the things i love talking about. so we have the way we run is then sweet run conferences. we have month twice, monthly meetings, and we took about topical things. we get people writing blogs, we get people involved in developing events because this isn't about me. i'm really just the math piece for it. but it's about all of those pique, them what they the richness of their experience and how that's driving the changes . and as a result of our fidgety is, you know, i most say the director of strategy and policy to the old policy problem at triggers. whistle blowing. now there's a huge team of us now working around the phase, calling ontario. but we have written what developed richardson, the build that they trust is on, and it's doing through a problem and for the price that's cool, the protection of which the blank bill is going to transform the way we think about

whistle blowing. and on top of that, we've now started to build a global team, a label of late alliance of people who are equally concerns. they might be in cios, they might be list as low as they might be. you know, the professionals in different countries because we have this on vision and another one of our colleagues iris to not just a very in greece, came up with this brilliant tongue a global treaty. but why not? so we're trying to develop what that will look like new site, as many people as possible to get involved and put their voice into this. georgina, thanks for being with us. stay with us. we are speaking with british whistleblower georgina how ford hall. after the break, we're going to talk about her whistle blowing in the charity sector in the u. k. and the group she founded to help countless other whistle blowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

the started in 1983 session with my father on a young man. the site that's all exactly the same as a kid does. when he goes on the lake and the community is present for advantage with ron. real nice families and calendars for a really long time. my mom was pregnant with me still long winding. and i grew up on long life. i've been having this issue since probably 1970 was my 1st year that i seriously point into the explainable biomass is near historically a levels of growth rate has dropped calling when it's done and it's worse form has of leveling effect. and it has a tendency to really just sort of strip away everything that's there. the way fisheries are changing. it's the way our country's changing. it's increasingly hard for small businesses to make it abundant. stocks are important. i mean,

who wants to fish the last bit? the message i would leave to you is the importance of not giving up the importance of working together and also the importance of taking care of your corner of the ocean a day. and this is new and never done before. we treat the general. okay, that means national governments come into the economy much maybe into that and then it goes, but you do take that. yeah. because of the 22 and then the other 2 or something that i don't do that i'm going to send my son. he died the mean outdoor mess, city sick of that and sick all the status. i need you to turn. this is a full turn. just be the $75.00. i mean to the present yours on for sure. and for the should with top likely to get very loud as the funny

thing about this. as soon as to resume this will be to pretty much locked and loaded onto the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto were speaking with british whistleblower georgina how fred haul. she has blown the whistle against wrong doing multiple times 1st with regard to bullying and her sons, military school, and next in a non profit charity. georgina, thanks again for being with us. it's great, i'm really excited. almost no whistleblower sets out to be

a whistle blower. most of us are professionals who are just going about our normal lives. but then you see evidence of waste, fraud abuse or illegality. and you feel compelled to say something in the end. many of us either walk away from our careers and focus on was blowing, or we're thrown into the life of a whistle blower. you've embraced whistle blowing and you have helped countless other whistle blowers who have followed you. tell us about that. well, i'm really, again, i'm really can't, is a full rate health professional. i'm upset with evaluation and, you know, setting something out and what do we do? so we have, we have a board of directors, we have a associate membership. i wish i looked up the numbers before i talked to you, but over a 100 and we rely on those people to give us all feedback. but in terms of so the more easy, measurable, so we receive eva, $3000.00 emails and telephone calls every year we, we have at least on average an it guy goes to st. j for,

for him doing all the in a back room stuff. and we get on average 3 inquiries a week that comes through the r n pays on them parliament. all that demonstrates that people trust is we get, we get referrals from a house, which is one of the government bodies that do all the traction. we get recommendations for another little firms. we get recommendations from around the world just before i say i was speaking to you today. i was doing an interview for the italian government with the time slice a. and i think that what we've done is we've said rose's in the esl stage. perfect . let's keep moving with it because it's too easy. stuck in something and say, this is what we're going to do. and we're just going to do that. but when we recognize it's not working, all the landscape is shifted. we've been at trial and we've decided to respond to it and not criticize it. take forward the best ideas that the best time. and that

was, i think, well, it's kind of cool to the table family, it changes people want to be there and they'll say, well, what have you done in 5 years? i suppose we did a lot more than people have done in 15 or 20 or even said she is in 10 going from looking at legislation we had demonstrating why it doesn't look. i'm proposing something it does. because if you just wrap it, it's easy for politicians, they built millions of other things that doing make it easy, make it something they can understand and demonstrate how it's going to benefit of the citizens. i think that's been the strength of what we're doing. we don't criticize, we always look for solution, take that and then and discuss it. i know that in your role as the founder of whistle blowers, u. k, that you regularly advised businesses, members of parliament and regulatory bodies on whistle blowing legislation. i've done the same thing through the excellent organization blueprint for free speech,

which is based in australia. it's been my experience that many countries are very desirous of draft whistleblower protection legislation. but then it becomes very hard to actually get that legislation passed into law. tell me about your own experience with legislation. what's the reception been like in the u. k. we are very creative about the things that we do and we've, we've, we've puts in place things like 10 plates to make things easier and we all going to loan tonight. it's very, is a, the, to our handbook. but again, that will be free to everybody, to, to give them an idea of how to whistle blowers, not just in the paper globally low. we have put in a section for how the lower the name it works and the u. k. to ensure that people them full into all of those back traps, you know, running out of time using the wrong language. don't taking the right books is, is those fundamental basics. it's really hard to do when you're not an expert in the area. and you'll say probably very stressed and then to time constraints. so we,

we look at the touch, think of all the words i've lost my words, which is not like me. we, we look at. yeah, quite so i know you're laughing for good reason that so we just keep getting people to maps the chronology out. we get them to be clear. we support them in that process and provide the critical friendship. and then we try and do something beyond that, which is a psychological support and all of our people, it is a trained and it will, they already have it naturally in the bucket bags really. but we cite dense, obsess about same things, but tonight treat you whistle blowing like a joke and show the balance this with your personal life. maintain your relationships with your partners, your family, your friends. then going to a show because the one important thing use, or the most important thing is that there is a life after with loving. so you need to keep your mental,

physical and psychological health really, really high. and if you, if you turn to that, you will say from the rest, the, if you end up being quotes or any other full of legal process, it makes you less able to type in more isolated the one. the one thing i've seen in the most successful whistle in cases i've, i've personally been involved in is that there's a really strong ground thing of the west, the black in the family, all their relationships and their friendships. and that keeps people going whatever happens. you've got to remember that you have a license to, this is no data loss for us and i don't think to me, it does, and that's why i'm able to continue with my life around all of this just so we're really hard on it. i'm very committed to it, but do you collect the people that i love in the process of making this life? and i strongly believe having looked at this with colleagues around the world,

but there is a slice of abuse, which is in british or european is just international because it's very unusual as in your case, the only one pests knows. usually lots of people know about this, they might know who registered it or recognize where the wrong doing is or the consent. so when you start talking with other people now, is there any way you just saw just the resupply, to actually make it formal and blows? the whistle that it seems that this like setting up in a long bell in a pulling the ripped court. i'm gone for the, investigating the, the cause the most people know about the county. we investigate you. because i think that somewhere in our own consciousness that's about triggering other people's moral failure is. ringback other save us and we shiny and affect by not doing something themselves with shining lights on that. and i don't know about this. i'm a psychotherapist,

but i'm sure that there are all these other things that go in and people says you can investigate just as the list of law. you're the one who gets put through all these purchases. you're the one who's put tool, the cost of lawyers and inconvenience and that impacts your family and lifestyle. and then people take that choice that may, i might get a keep going because i comp cnn to this. so i can't see myself recovering. so they leave the organization is like, rob pulls up the flag again. this is the cycle, but what happens because it's a cycle is the next person come as long as the, hey, look at the data, looked into the image of the room and it will stop the game. and you see this happening organizations over and over again, where most of them past 9 more than one person has spoken out. but it's things that keep going to find themselves heading towards the exit. and that's what we've got to stop tense on this way of thinking. and it isn't unique 12,

i know the in america, they have brilliant organizations, governments accountability pro, a project. and that's the whistle going send to the 11th of them. and i just love working with them because it reinforces that where all right. and if we're all rights, governments are going to talk to us and we've been lucky to be able to talk with centers to ground these office over in the states as well. i genuine, they think that the lunch stake has changed. the main things which is different, a new for whatever reason is it ukraine or the whole rector of things of the levels and kinds of course, what about who is it? you know, all of this is may just realize the whistle blows, all the 1st line of defense against crime correction and help her up. and if we didn't listen to them, we're waiting for the next cov, it's waiting for the next step prostitute somewhere else. if we didn't listen, st. mary's, we all going to all stuff, georgina, how for the hall?

thank you so much for joining us. and thank you to our viewers for watching the great greek philosopher. plato once said that honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty for the air of philosopher bucher. corrected that for us millennial later when he said, quote, the greatest truth is honesty and the greatest fault is dishonesty. he was right. be honest. do the right thing. i'm drunk periodically when using, watching the whistle. blowers, thanks for joining us until next time the, the, i'm a film director. i've written many scripts during my career. but i thought really curious, couldn't neural networks collaborate with a human to make a documentary film printer set up so much good for me not to be

chat about this because i love share of comergence this your more than so it was more list, you know, this is what i don't know, but i would feel with a score. so i'm just letting us know if it looks like you still are used to play scramble with the positive, which look a lot. finally, probably for you really feel pause a little as a sort of by the way we haven't introduced ourselves. i have the strangest feeling we've met somewhere before the, the new trial. it is one of the most flexible concepts in international relations. but you can imagine which is why it's so useful, but why it is so inherently different to the difficult to grasp so that the chances we have is the country subpoenaed with the meaning that is useful to them. and hopefully to, to all this, because i didn't, i didn't, i didn't score it means i'm not taking the side of either of the completely,

the two's 2016, numerous monuments to soviet soldiers and poland, ukraine and the baltic states have been destroyed or vandalized fish, their stuff, but it must be the most certainly within yeah. unless or even some others could ask if i really think so that's the most on whether it's, it's less room was the thing in the police government denies the rule of soviet soldiers in the victory of a naziism. and is it raising historical memories of world war 2 is the 40 piece from your starter. although it did seem to not see regimes, the trustees would remain thinks in people's consciousness forever. but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the cost to, to uh, take up the aisle, provides. i need the seats in the car. facts do i need to leave

the headline stories this our majors true government leaders sees any military intervention by echo walls will be considered an occupation of the west africans lock declares its preferred for the most co saves the e. u. foreign policy chief is simply envious. after calling russia, quote, a gas station with news, most of the world by as less rest, as one of the world saw 5 economies using extra index, surpassing all directly from the head of ukraine's national security service rugs aboard last month said tucker, look, try me in which claim the lives of excuses indians are left to for.