the progress, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter level. they tow fail due crane still again another promise not kept. in fact, the military alliance has no intention of bringing kevin to native. this is always been the fox ukraine, as an after thought inflicting a strategic defeat on russia as always in the plan, the

process of getting the nato summit. i'm joined by my guess. yon oberg in london is director of the swedish independence, transnational foundation for peace and future research in columbus. we have missed the winston. she is a political activist, as well as host of the miss the winston show on t and t radio. and here in moscow we have mike jones, he is an independent journalist. all right, cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate you on let me go to you 1st. there's so much we can say about this summit that was held in building this. it was built up covered extensively. it was a bost. okay. but at the end of the day, the 2 most important things to take away from it. not that if you crane made it in or didn't make it in are conditions that can all watch it. that's all for now. what really matters here is it this some, it did not discuss peace and it did not discuss security security for all young. i know it did,

and that is not in the vocabulary of nato. i studied nato's because i, i wrote a book about it last year and why it shouldn't be abolished 30 arguments. and i want went through all the documents. there's no conceptualization on pieces, defends and guitars, or deterrence, and defense and security, then it is pronouncing who is the enemy, or who is the opponent? always a potential threat such as china as populations. a post legs is no analysis and it's a combination of others and never celebrate flexion. so the web piece is not that, and it's not a defensive alliance in any academic reason. lovely. sustainable definition of that word. yeah, well, oh, yeah. the, it's primary mission. this is to stay in business sites and stop. the goal is to stay in business. missy mcknight, essentially the same questionnaire because i know that we've always heard the sultan verdes ahead of the nato. you are the rush. it has no veto. has no be. what does, apparently it does have

a veto. that's why this ukraine was not invited and never will be invited into the alliance. they are flowing themselves and that there is their scribes in the media . just lie about it. go ahead and columbus to. yes, i think that that is absolutely correct. i don't think it's a surprise to anybody who's paying a bit of attention that ukraine has no chance whatsoever of making it into nato at this point. or at any point, i think that this is kind of a, a care that there dangling in front of them on a stick in order to continue. i think that this is as doing a science one said that about afghanistan. the goal is unless we're not a successful we're it applied, then i think it applies now. and i think that the membership and the data was something that they are just kind of waving in front of ukraine in order to justify the continuation of using ukrainian bodies. as cannon fodder for this proxy war against russia. and it's initially, it's really quite amazing that the political leadership in can goes along with it. it's, it's really extraordinary. a sacrificing their own people. i suppose. the lensky and his crowd are paid very well. compensation is very good for these people. mike,

let me go to you. i mean, when we, we, they talk about allies, when all the allies agree and conditions are met. you know, one, my friend. they are farther away from getting into nato than they were in 2008 when they were invited. as a potential invite and to be alive, they are farther away than they are in 2008. go ahead. absolutely right. i'm gonna reach back to the united kingdom and ben wallace who echoed the us saying we can't have a new member in the middle of a conflict that would just import war into the lions. and it really baffles me how this was never considered before. how's the lensky always move into it? because the p a has been a catastrophic, even the photographs of the lensky just standing on his own, completely excluded from what's going on when, when we think about it, they say when allies agree, when they've been able to agree in recent times, they've been divided over

a success to stoughton bug divided the cluster bombs now divided the key f. and yet the headlines will read that nato has been more united than ever. you only need to do a very quick google search on the minimum requirement is the nato membership and the us state department itself and it's archive explicitly states. there is no checklist for membership, but it does say we made it clear the minimum their off 5 following requirements. number one, you members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity. you're absolutely right. that's not been existing in the crating for, you know, at least what 2008 if know 2014. so no ukraine has never had any chance of being in the nato by even the, in the us is own sort of requirements as a lease the puts it. well, you know, it's, that's a very good point because they talk about democratic norms and rules based order, which does not apply to ukraine in any sense. yeah, and you know,

one of the things that's very interesting is that they say that ukraine has to win the war to become eligible to be a member. so what they lose the war, do they get to become a member? i mean, i don't understand the logic here. yeah. and can you figure it out? i think the logically is that if war is the only game in town, so speed in, in they taught us towns and there's not a word about these negotiation sees fire or anything else. reason level. then of course, a movie you that by pumping in weapons down, i mean, nation and political support and good works. so that today, or you probably wouldn't be able to win over russia. i think the assumption is at night. and also it's very interesting now in historical perspective, to look at nato as being in various ways in ukraine, basically is things i think 3 months after you have kind of been cameron independence thing. yeah. everybody in the west who knew anything about security, including number of us and passengers to mosque out, including uh burners,

who is now ca director. but was an investor and tons of scholars in the us. and europe have won the last 30 years. you can, we, you may, you may do expansion of nature, which is against the problem is, is very clearly have to go by job. but you can't do you crying because that means war. and now you had a couple of days before the room. you saw me, you had by didn't say things saying basically the same word. i mean, this is a huge blunder. they should never have done what they did in 2008, which was a response to letting me po attends a very concerned speech in the munich security conference. so i mean, they just have totally intellectual, flawed, and best figured it's really interesting when you think about the, the, the sensor shape it's going on. of course, everyone knows like, for example, r t was taken off of youtube, but it is absolutely right. ever since the end of the cold war, there's been a huge debate about expanding nato, but according to one year ago in 5 months,

you can't say that anymore. your app, you're getting to know a lot of trouble for. i was originally banned from twitter for quoting rock obama on ukraine. i got the band for that. okay. so the, it's really quite interesting is what you can there was, there's a whole literature out there and but all of a sudden the last 16 months. oh there's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's for both them to speak about missing. this is the times we live in. i un, it'll let me, let me go to mr. here, here in columbus. go ahead. i mean, yes. listen, the censorship, industrial complex that has been completely out of control on a number of issues. this is just one of them. and i think that it is very telling, i think, any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. and i think that that's something that they have been able to avoid in this country. the propaganda machine is very powerful, very strong and very effective. i think a lot of people are, are willing and able to go along with whatever line that they're selling to us on the, on a host of issues. this one i think is a little bit different. i think that this one from the jump. i think

a lot of people started to question it. they've managed to beat a lot of those people down through censorship. like with yourself and through other methods of, you know, kind of silencing people through algorithms and shadow banning and that kind of thing. but i do think a lot of people are questioning this narrative a lot more than they would have maybe in the past. i think post iraq, a lot of people are more skeptical when these sort of a situations arise. and i think that that's what we're seeing now. and i hope that continues and we, and we continue to see people uh, push back on this uh, sort of a narrative. yeah. mike, you know, the, let's think about this here. so let's say hypothetically, our ukraine winds the war against russia. then why does it need nato ok, why does it need to join in the lot? also, if you could crane most likely will lose this work. why would nato include a country bit lost, a war against russia? i mean, i, i don't, i don't understand the logic of any of this here. go ahead, mike. you know, none of it make sense as you, as you rightly said. but if, if they were to win, well, how do they win? cause those gold coast keep changing? i think biting and his lot was saying that nate,

ukraine would have to retain crimea as a, as a sort of standard of, you know, restore the territorial integrity. and this has been sorting about a lot. so then if you kind doesn't succeed in restoring it's 1991 board is then it doesn't maintain his integrity. that for account will be a positive nate. so because part of the conditions as i understood them was that the country had to be in control of its borders. so you, obviously, you're right, they never make sense and let's just so, so remember how president periods in distress about this expansion of nato. the key concern of the russian federation, an x as in x, a central security risk and the western media loss to him. but in short order, then we had these goals for sweden and finland to join finland, being another encroachment up to the north. and then we have this talk of ukraine and suddenly celebrated the open look how united we are. look, how putin has shot himself in the foot. no,

you've actually justified his exec consent and you've been so so strength. and the argument that nato has broken his promise as has been stressed it to go, which has a margaret fletcher being one of them from the u. k. who also show a good chance that not one inch east. well, so yeah, i mean, what is the future of nato? i'd say the brick wall with the crane and you're like, i know, i think we're all in agreement. you claim will never be a member of that alliance rush. it will not allow it. that's why we have the conflict there now young. and i think what they are doing now is to substitute the word minimum, which is very clear in the treaty with or not substitute it. but i expand that into what they called paul, those. and now i think 139500 is on all the, you know, boss of the world. and, you know, they are thinking now planning to set up in an h will office in japan all this. and i think this is an extremely important point. what made to dollars today is not in

the photos with its founding treaty. it's in that sense and the legal activity outside on that started with the bombing of yugoslavia $99.00. absolutely, absolutely. well, what it is is it is the hang on, hang on, hang on. we gotta have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the nato summit. stay with our team, the, the break by call, a magical place, tactical ice clean water is a dramatic geography. and of course, a unique echo system which is developed over the past 25 to 35000000 years. and of course, a place like this just seconds you come and experience at all for yourself. and one visions coming up on our international today. and

this is new and never done before. we treat the general escape. that means national governments can come into the economy much maybe into that and it goes, but definitely i think that yeah, because of that. yeah. on the 2220, i just wanted to come up and get it to us on the move this to my son, he died if the message is ticket to call me jordan systemic sunnyside. the ease of doing this is a full turn. just the 75, i mean to the present yours on for sure and for the should talk about is the last sunday probably about about just as soon as she resumed this will be too much about it,

but the welcome ex. across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter le belcher manager, were discussing the nato summit. the okay, right before we went to the break, i was talking with you on your, on your, on our roll. so keep rolling, go ahead. you know, i just said, but this is from the bombing of yugoslavia 99. it has done the thing and then the lines have done things that are not in any way letter, of course, bearing in with the, in it's treaty, which is a very defensive un charlton based training. the only difference from the un java is but a's on to go 5 about, you know, mutual defense on each other inside the drum. i could find that as, as

a piece for this after tomorrow. the fact is that it's breaking 247 its own provisions, and i would suggest that there shouldn't be established an independent international commission that looks change or more years than others who would look into how far can they to deviate from. is a founding treaty. and what can be done about it, and if you're asking about the future, it wants to go global by means of partners, because it's running out of members in europe. and that's why we have to stop it. it simply has to be stopped by a popular movement in the west and other countries that wow, well, we'll see. we'll see how it goes. i, i don't, i think nato is days, are numbered. it's going to a separate strategic. ok, that's dropping the feed in ukraine. it's the graveyard of nato, at least. i hope so. missy, i don't want, i don't want to get too legalistic or anything like that. but, you know, there's always this talking about the article 5 of the, of the nature tree. it's actually called the washington treaty. but, you know,

everyone should read the article one of the treaty, nato con nato, as an organization, under its own roles cannot get involved in military complex using force. its members must use diplomacy and negotiations. nobody reads the 1st article and i'm going to agree with ya. berry and complete violation of their own. and treaty go ahead, misty. indeed. yes, and i think that it's a i had to smile there as you were saying that out loud because it's a curious to me that they don't ever actually follow that to it. i hope that you're correct and that this is going to be the graveyard for nato. i think that nato has it's long overdue for it to have been abolished. and we're, as we're seeing the situation in ukraine play out, it seems as if you may be correct. i think that you, they are going to suffer a very strategic defeat here. and it is going to be very difficult for them to spend that in a positive direction for nato. and i think that that is something that they are trying to contend with. now i think that there's probably a little bit of panic behind the scenes. they're trying to figure out how they can

best, you know, wiggle around in the situation and make it, uh, you know, that and, and kind of save face. and the best way that they can, i'm not sure how they do that at this point. they are now so far involved. there's no way for them to back out without looking silly. and i think that that's something that they're continue cont, contending with now behind the scenes trying to figure out how they can make that play without you know, making fools of themselves with the box that play out. actually missy, i do have the, the, the wiggle room for them. i shouldn't even say it, cuz i know they'll steal it. you know what they're gonna say. let's see, i'm gonna tell you what they gotta say. anyways, didn't make it to parents. we won the football so that's exactly, that's the, you know, room temperature i q of these people. that's exactly what they're going to do. but mike, you know, you know, again, they were talking about with when the allies agree on the conditions when conditions are met. here we also have the g 7. yes, they're still around now making trouble. they are talking about security guarantees as well. again, i thought that what, what did they have to do with the military,

with security? i thought they weren't economic organization. okay. i mean, again, this is another fiction here to sell to people in the west, you know how to waste more money on, on a loss costs go ahead. might yeah, yeah, absolutely right. the g 7, as i understood it with these economic members and powers that came together and discussed such things. so it baffled me when even zelinski himself said, or i, if we don't get nato membership, at least we'll get some reassurance is from the g 7. but we know that everything's been a big fight and nothing but really in regards to that, all the security guarantees, it doesn't matter how you want to describe it. well, these countries committing to the proxy war. and again, i'll refer back to ben wallace saying that we don't want to import war into the lions, and you have the same people of engaging in this proxy. well, they just the ones that directly at them, so they're happy to attack rusher and facilitate the death of russian soldiers, but they don't want to risk their own,

their own soldiers and people. this g 7 nonsense is probably again, whether it just gonna line up take photographs and pass each other on the back and lots about how they will invested in the right arms manufacturers. and that's it. that's the economic side. as far as i can tell. well it absolutely. yeah. also, well, yeah, let's talk about the issue of cluster bombs. i mean, again, rules based order and all of this nonsense they like to talk about here. that is a very dangerous escalation and russian, russian doesn't start big, go up the escalation ladder. it usually follows that. it's gonna follow this one for sure. yeah. and so it's part of modern militarism that do you see problems only with one and 2 in your tool box like a habit of that means whatever you're trying to do, you're tapestry. it's pulling down your hammering on and then finally the one we sell will come down. the idea that this whole problem can only be solved by weapons

. i think actually we have a statement from mr. stockton back in the direction that piece comes with weapons or something. instead of you know, the ceasefire negotiations, u. n. o is the media to media. ready and etc, is, is just an indicative indication that these organizations outdated, may, we don't meet militarism in this world and they certainly don't do it because they have 12 times more military expenditures and roger, what we need is corporation, what we need is not to waste money but solve the problem to humanity as and do we, you know, reach out and accept the way down to live in a multiple world with different cultures, different political ideas, different interpretations of human rights, etc. i think for the u. s. and it's friends and allies will not do that, they will lose, or they become a perry afraid that will become, you know, in the long run, some kind of developing countries in the future world or 50100 years from now. well,

you're not going to long time when we see his desperation and it cost the balance as an example of it. when you need to interview the cost of bombs and you're in, you're fine. you're really, you're really losing it. yeah, well, missy, well, i'm glad the onset that because this is an act of desperation and desperate people do desperate things and i wouldn't put it past them. do do other things as well. i mean, it's all about maintaining had gemini, is what we have here is ukraine, is this the example? okay. do you think of policy makers in washington in brussels? give a hoot about ukraine. they don't at all. they want to give them as much weapon, reading that their young young men to be killed in the bad steel. the end result will be the same miss. yes, yes, a 100 percent. i'm so glad that the word respiration was used because that is exactly what this is. i think that the united states and the west has like a wounded animal, backed into a corner and you're absolutely right. or government doesn't even care about the people of this country and i'm supposed to believe that they care about ukrainians . it is absurd on its face. and so we're happy to use them as cannon fodder. many

people in a high level, high positions of power. i've said that we will fight until the last ukranian. uh well, i mean that is a, that's a, it's a very brave and bold thing for you to say from back home. but i think that the people of ukraine are going to start to find that quite despicable. i find it despicable, the idea that we are using this country and its people, as you know, a weapon against russia is really despicable. and so i think that again, i think that they're starting to lose the narrative here. i think that they're starting to lose control. and i think that this is for sure and active desperation . well, mr. you couldn't see it, but when you said the governments here don't care about their own people. the other guests on the program nodded their heads in. okay, and i, i, i'm agreeing with you as well. oh, mike, it's really interesting how this propaganda war there is being fought. it's interesting how we have used as a lensky. i think they were a little surprised with those mean tweet. ok. because you know, you say i've done everything you told me to do every thing and then you know, they make it down the alter, sorry,

you're not the type of girl for us. okay. go ahead mike. yeah, i think he says i have given everything on demand respect, and even zalinski was smacked by again ben wallace saying, well, ukraine should say, find you more often. subsequent to the comments, i believe the lensky released the videos saying fine to, you know, less than $47.00 times in a video. it's really been well, it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic this talk about yeah, fights and so the last ukrainian is, is chilling. at the very least, if i were just add in a statistic that i came across is 97 percent of those people killed by cluster munitions have been civilians. yep. these weapons are not effective on the battlefield. they are not suitable for the battle field that, that being supplied to it is desperation to keep this fight going. because remember we have the 2024 elections. i think the like subject sullivan, victoria new lens and all that desperate to just keep this going to 2024 and try

and get another democrat in the white house. and that's where you ukraine and ukrainian people being sacrificed for, for what us politics for, for what, for what exactly, what, what is the national interest for europe and what is the national interest for the united states? it's never explained yet, and i'm glad that mike brought up a bad statistic because given the nature of the regime and cab before the conflict, and now i'm talking about corruption. i really worry that these cluster bombs will be sold to various groups around the world. okay. they're not going to stay in ukraine. they're too valuable to the various forces. yeah. as well, that's the risk that the west has taken hold of time, but it's bumping in weapons into a country that is known for corruption as it can be. i mean, you talked about the split sand, what will be the future of the lines and the cost of own thing has been a split, and there is no un united muscle opinion about that. like

a lot of other issues within nato is own leadership or leaders. and i think what, what, what we've made me we shouldn't be so surprised because if you look at all the wars they, they, the u. s. has been leading or fighting the seems to be at that they've all been lost or left to withdrawal. so why should we be surprised that if you agree to chaos enough k as in ukraine, you leave because you might have gotten something else, you need it. the problem here is that the, we need some leadership in the western world that does not think of a war as an confrontation and sanctions on demonized ation and strengthening. it'd be a barrier and worse as the main kind of of foreign policy. it's totally outdated, as i said, i'm, i'm, you was an i stated at that time 30 years ago pulled down late. so because it was all packed in the soviet union has disappeared and that was the advice on best. but that time i'll be alliance. therefore, the,

the original data today of the lines is only one thing and one word expansion expansion. it has nothing to bring to the world any more. it's an out days. it may have been useful early. i don't know, but it's not unusual for the future on the world that's well said, and that's all the time we have. i want to think my guess in columbus land and here in moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember process the, the look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law should we live in justification,

we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to create a trust rather than fit the various. i mean with the artificial intelligence, we have somebody with him in the a robot must protect his phone, existence was on the gosh. there's a high quality of life to my destination is having the necessary conditions. i'm going to put a new condition organized in terms of the number of hours available in a week. full contact can being pretty sure which is which is why i would say to be conscious of your existence. what about take is a transcend device or existence. it came with pretty sure if you all the adults and it means one thing, what's long to cut them we've, you purchased it. mean to know the toys that the if you're a stomach or

a new toner. so you need something else because at o, without to see you are essentially a mundane, passive inside pronounce that as well. so the on the tab will be a little bit of a little home for the difficult for us with his presence or not as he goes as a still somebody sitting benefit eagles, angels. and since you order from them in 480,

my god. healey guidance for already thank you and has it always been been did in gwinnett stop, you get a lesson was like $50.00 notice you started getting out of funding, but i mean what i mean, not easy to to get everything that is going to hang up on our phone, let us do like a stuff in the

system to march 24 to 5 people because it's time to modify the larger than that. that's what i notice on something nobody get it in a speed. can you tell us the most the conflict? so a know, you know, just to, to do the same thing more to, to finance some systems for 10 percent of which you know, because you somebody, some interest jim was, you know, i got an mentor plate super little. can you send us? i said the shape is on its own. i have 41, so i guess so is that going to have the most today be through the band will come?